Hello fellows, rather than doing this per PM, I say it here: The Strana Mechty Cabal has been destroyed, however, 8 FP could escape. We should try to locate them. The Inter Clan Watch surely would try to locate them, as should the best Watches. There is a certain op for it.
Also, there are 19 FP of salvage left with 6 participating Clans. I would take 1 FP for the Ice Hellions leaving the rest to the other 5 Clans.
18/5 is 3.6, so it is not that wise to split it up this way, however, you should talk it out if you agree to this.
Also, Dave, there are quite some questions left, e.g. what is in those freezer trucks and what new Systems were to salvage etc. The Viking 4 is already mine. Could someone give me the data of this Mech please?
However, I am excited to start the next turn, it will be bloody. Many of you have PMs, including you, Dave. ;)
Also, I would ask everyone to look out for more players. The Playerless Clans need some attention and I dont mean the kind of Dave's. :-*
Marlin:
I will send you the MTF files for the Viking IV when I get home from work. Right now you just have the one mech you captued, but we can discuss the possibility of reverse engineering going forward.
Regarding the freezer trucks, your scientists are currently in the process of investigating what they contain, but they are being very careful as they do not want to damage the contents. More will follow during the intelligence phase of turn 38.
Several of you have asked about helping with the playerless Clans. There will be answers going out tonight.
Thanks for this, Dave. I know and I have no inclination yet to reverse engineer a lame Assault Mech. :D
For the rest: I look forward to it. Just that: I think Excel isnt gonna work here so I would have to switch to OpenOffice (A move that should have been done much earlier, I say. :P)
Actually, I think it is the .xlsx files, which are Office 2007, and I have issues as well, since I am still using Office 2000. (Shut up :P) If the files could be uploaded as .xls, there should not be a problem.
QuoteExample:
[RP/MM] Turn 45, Dark vs FS - 3629 New Avalon
A bit of foreshadowing?
Not if they keep losing battleships to Foxes.
And you know I would have thought that someone would have mentioned the attack/assassination of Victor?
guess I didnt read the post that closely.....I thought that was a Flashpoint event *face palm*
Not to worry about it, but I feel sorry for Victor. He gets no respect.
Well, then again he does see dead people. It could have been Lincoln Osis that assasinated him just as easuly.
Good riddence to him I say. So long VSD.
If he dies, you aren't invited to the funeral so there.
I'm a Clanner... funerals are a waste of time.
Oh contrary. According to Exodus Road, one of the greatest honors that a clanner can do is bring a fallen warrior's codex back for processing to make future warriors. That is what they told Trent anyway. And I guess that is similar to a funeral.
Aff, the Gift takes are very sacred. But how Clans handle them is bound to change.
Ghost Bears will come to the funeral if you want them. He may have been working for The Enemy, but he was a good man and a great warrior. Plus we like state funerals. The catering is usually pretty good.
I really have no problem with Ghost Bears at the funeral. Then again, other than the Wolves in Exile, the Bears were the only Clans to show up at the Tikonov Ball. I just have to hide some Bears from the others.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on March 26, 2010, 11:58:01 PM
I really have no problem with Ghost Bears at the funeral. Then again, other than the Wolves in Exile, the Bears were the only Clans to show up at the Tikonov Ball. I just have to hide some Bears from the others.
Fixed that for ya. :P
I don't see how that idea that Victor was a positive figure has survived in the FGC. He lead the force the broke the peace he created, an eminantly dishonorable act, and not from the field as he was historicaly wont to do and as the Clans respect, but from the rear. He was the pawn of politicians like his sister. It should be pointed out that the war was hardly a winning effort at the end of the day, putting lie to any claim that he was a genious (you can argue that the IS was ahead and they gave it all away, but Victor was at Pasig to do the giving). SL forces later broke the terms of the Treaty Victor himself brokered in the Mandrills incursion of the FRR, and later against the Adders or Falcons or who ever it was, leading the GC to declaire the treaty dead. He weaseled out of helping the FWL (though the Clans may not care about this as much, I think they would since no one likes a weasel). And he's been kicked off Blackjack twice now, both times trying to run and both times with poor resualts.
Now, this is no knock on Welshman or anyone else. I think Welsh played Victor quite in cherictor. But I think even in canon, Victor was sort of a loser with an inflated reputation, and I think that a good job was done really carring that foward into the FGC. I think holding to the canon view the Clans have of him after all he's done is just silly at this point.
Oh please can we be spared a bash Victor string of posts?
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on March 27, 2010, 06:39:01 AM
Now, this is no knock on Welshman or anyone else. I think Welsh played Victor quite in cherictor. But I think even in canon, Victor was sort of a loser with an inflated reputation, and I think that a good job was done really carring that foward into the FGC. I think holding to the canon view the Clans have of him after all he's done is just silly at this point.
You can view him as a loser with an inflated reputation -- that's certainly a valid interpretation -- but the inflated reputation remains.
He made mistakes. He also killed an ilKhan. You have to do something pretty far beyond the pale to lose "respected enemy" status, and Victor never quite did. He didn't
instigate the breach of the peace, after all, and having moved to an administrative post doesn't remove his past glory. So we'll send some lower-level Warriors to honor the man he once showed us he could be -- and to make sure the bastard's really dead.
Why is a Clan OOC thread bound to talks about a freebirth that is dead? And an IS Traitor-Lord Spawn at that?
;) Do the IS have not an OOC thread?
Cause, we all know that the clans are just jealous of the IS. They have what the clans don't. :)
Quote from: Marlin on March 22, 2010, 11:20:55 AM
Hello fellows, rather than doing this per PM, I say it here: The Strana Mechty Cabal has been destroyed, however, 8 FP could escape. We should try to locate them. The Inter Clan Watch surely would try to locate them, as should the best Watches. There is a certain op for it.
Also, there are 19 FP of salvage left with 6 participating Clans. I would take 1 FP for the Ice Hellions leaving the rest to the other 5 Clans.
Guys... I've already briefly mentioned this to some of the other players whose clans were present at Strana Mechty, however for the general group, the Hell's Horses would like to claim 3.0FP of the salvage in order to rebuild it's (Elite) Galaxy Command unit. As you all know, it's not easy keeping Elite status, and the Horses would be prepared to compensate in C38 to the same value, those Clan(s) that agree to allowing the Horses their part of the salvage.
cheers
I guess with the bow out of the Adders you should have your 3 FP. If not more. The Vipers also have granted you their part, so have fun with it. (My guess) I already took my FP and prepare my forces for the next step of Monkeyness.. :P
Oh and NVA, I think that an IS player first talked here about the quite dead former prince. So.. I guess he wanted to have some Clans at the funeral to not feel so lonely. :D
Clans can party harder. ;D
Actually, I first commented because someone implied Operation Impending Doom 3 would succed at destroying New Avalon. Fility lies! Nothing shall wipe out the light of New Avalon except when we chose to turn out the lights. For in those days, it shall be known as the days of turning out the lights. And only then shall you know temporal doom.
Really, I was only arroused by someone saying that the Dark would even get close to New Avalon. Ha.
No problem, whoever said this, will be proven wrong, sadly. :P
Quote from: LordHarlock
As a Davion Guardsmen, Major Schwarz Bruder opened the passenger door of the VTOL...
+1 for Schwarz Bruder
(http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=149.0;attach=100;image)
Well Foxx asked me to change one of his character into a Char with a mask to boot. And well after debating for awhile which Char's character to use as a name, I decided that Schwarz was the most viable for the role. Especially since I think someone already had a Quattro Bajeena.
Plus, I like Bruder.
Is it coincidence that so many BT-friends are Anime-geeks?
Quote from: Lord Harlock on March 28, 2010, 03:04:47 AM
Really, I was only arroused by someone saying that the Dark would even get close to New Avalon. Ha.
You got aroused by that? You need to go on a date Bro... :-*
When will the Faction Roster and Map Update threads be up? Seems the sooner the better.
Quote from: Fatebringer on March 29, 2010, 07:42:42 PM
When will the Faction Roster and Map Update threads be up? Seems the sooner the better.
Faction Rosters go in the turn 38 Orders thread.
Map thread has been moved to the Turn 38 board and is open for updates to be reported.
Iron Mongoose, when I read the new name, I almost did a spit take in honor of your new totem.
Serious Post...I am looking for someone who is dedicated and understanding of the Exiles to take them over. I will likely be leaving the game and want to see them continued strongly. Please contact me via IM if you are interested. Note, certain requirements are in place :) :
1 - We are NOT Mercs
2 - We are NOT Lyran dogs
3 - We are NOT SLDF dogs
4 - We are NOT annihilists
5 - We are not TH 'supporters'
Quote from: Lord Harlock on March 31, 2010, 09:49:20 PM
Iron Mongoose, when I read the new name, I almost did a spit take in honor of your new totem.
There really is a story behind it, and its an IC one too, so it really makes sense. It all comes from August's little RP gem: Nkamoul cesosh n pei nte hegemon Kenshin Carrol.
Quote from: NVA on March 31, 2010, 11:48:40 PM
Serious Post...I am looking for someone who is dedicated and understanding of the Exiles to take them over. I will likely be leaving the game and want to see them continued strongly. Please contact me via IM if you are interested. Note, certain requirements are in place :) :
1 - We are NOT Mercs
2 - We are NOT Lyran dogs
3 - We are NOT SLDF dogs
4 - We are NOT annihilists
5 - We are not TH 'supporters'
Huh, if you are not that, what are you then? :D
I think you fit in at least 2 points from my POV, though.. :P (Clan centered)
So, clearly, you are not qualified to run the Exiles, if that is your OOC perspective and how you would play them IC. :)
The Exiles view themselves as Clan...As THE Clan Wolf. Someone running them has to understand that, no matter what all the wrong people try to convince them of. hehehe
I would not want them dude. ;)
Hope you find a good player for them.
The Exiles can everytime rejoin the true wolves.
Quote from: silentwarrior on April 03, 2010, 12:12:25 AM
The Exiles can everytime rejoin the true wolves.
Exiles ARE the True Wolves. The Tamar Wolves are tainted with Falcon flavoring. :)
Quote from: NVA on April 03, 2010, 01:56:22 AM
Quote from: silentwarrior on April 03, 2010, 12:12:25 AM
The Exiles can everytime rejoin the true wolves.
Exiles ARE the True Wolves. The Tamar Wolves are tainted with Falcon flavoring. :)
At least it's still Clan flavoring. Better than tasting like sauerkraut. ;D
Hm, doubtful. Sauerkraut tastes fine enough and the Clans do not shine on the taste front. I doubt Clanners taste well enough to eat.. only SLDF rations does make you.. ugh.
Anyway to get different sub forums for clan and IS attacks for turn 38? So we dont have a cluster f of threads going up.
Quote from: NVA on April 03, 2010, 01:56:22 AM
Quote from: silentwarrior on April 03, 2010, 12:12:25 AM
The Exiles can everytime rejoin the true wolves.
Exiles ARE the True Wolves. The Tamar Wolves are tainted with Falcon flavoring. :)
The Exiles can be the True Wolves when they're Clan again. That means reconciling with and sending representation to the Grand Council.
GMs in times past have barred the Grand Council from considering the legitimacy of the Abjuration in the past, but those GMs have not been with us for some time.
So, to be clan again, we have to join a group that supports genocide, use of orbital bombardment freely, the use of nuclear weapons, and generally commit the same atrocities that the barbarian lords of the succession wars did? The Grand Council is a poor definition of clan anymore. :)
Seems you are not following what happened. Terrans were the last to use OB. Those that used Nukes are no Clan anymore and will soon cease to exist. Also that were Scientists. I also have not seen any genocide so far.
Rather, your allies the Dracs killed a free government without a word by the Wolvies in Exile.. now your turn again.
Terrans used nukes in response to OrBomb. Standard escalation. Secondly, IC, we are not aware of it. And, what free government was destroyed by the dracs?
Um.. when did the Terrans use nukes??
I mean Planting. And Leskovic you helped them.
Quote from: Marlin on April 04, 2010, 05:00:31 PM
Seems you are not following what happened. Terrans were the last to use OB. Those that used Nukes are no Clan anymore and will soon cease to exist. Also that were Scientists. I also have not seen any genocide so far.
Rather, your allies the Dracs killed a free government without a word by the Wolvies in Exile.. now your turn again.
The smoking ruins of Schwartz tell you the Terrans were not the last ones to use OB....
Free government? It wasnt under my watch but;
Leskovic saw no action; "No enemy action. This operation is complete." So no free government was killed unless i dont have the invisible ink font installed.
Planting their was much killing. Right or wrong the world was garrisoned by clan troops "35 FP vs. 3.5 FP of defenders" given that if militia would have been the only thing on the planet, defenders would have been 1FP. Since their is no officials left to say if the DC was right or wrong, except the DC itself, well the official line would be a clan ploy.
Of course all this is subject to everyones IC interpretation as they see fit; if they want to say the DC murdered innocents, et all. Well the DC found baby-0s and kidz-mix cereal in the clans kitchens, right next to the hot dogs made with 100% genuine unbaptized baby meat, no filler included.
BTW, Dave, will the ICe Hellions get some more Info from their findings on Strana Mechty? :)
If the Nova Cats can get back in, the Exiled Wolves could certainly make a case for it. Especially if the Crusader Wolves end up getting their asses kicked in this game (and they very well could... look at their territory, eep!).
Quote from: tassa_kay on April 05, 2010, 05:30:35 AM
If the Nova Cats can get back in, the Exiled Wolves could certainly make a case for it. Especially if the Crusader Wolves end up getting their asses kicked in this game (and they very well could... look at their territory, eep!).
Point is...WHY would the Exiles WANT back in? They see the Grand Council, as a whole, as more corrupt and sickly than the IS. The Adders were allowed to spit all over the trial system. Clans using Orbital Bombardment and getting away with it <see CJF>. Nukes now in play. Other reasons as well. We have no taste for the current Grand Council. Maybe, if it decided to TRULY clean house, maybe. But, the members of the Grand Council, many of them, act less clan than some of the IS factions, etc. :)
Quote from: NVA on April 05, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
Quote from: tassa_kay on April 05, 2010, 05:30:35 AM
If the Nova Cats can get back in, the Exiled Wolves could certainly make a case for it. Especially if the Crusader Wolves end up getting their asses kicked in this game (and they very well could... look at their territory, eep!).
Point is...WHY would the Exiles WANT back in? They see the Grand Council, as a whole, as more corrupt and sickly than the IS. The Adders were allowed to spit all over the trial system. Clans using Orbital Bombardment and getting away with it <see CJF>. Nukes now in play. Other reasons as well. We have no taste for the current Grand Council. Maybe, if it decided to TRULY clean house, maybe. But, the members of the Grand Council, many of them, act less clan than some of the IS factions, etc. :)
Um, I couldn't care less what a Clan of traitors thinks, to be honest. I was just saying that they could make a case to go in. I'd certainly vote against it, regardless. ;)
Quote from: Marlin on April 04, 2010, 06:39:55 PM
BTW, Dave, will the ICe Hellions get some more Info from their findings on Strana Mechty? :)
Yes. Right now I am buried up to my eyeballs with orders for both campaigns, but I will try to get all intel reports for 3062 out in the next few days... including the supplementary intel report from Strana Mechty.
Thanks Dave. Coolio. :)
If you are swamped too much, consider Josh or another dude as Co-GM to load off some burden. Or extend the Cycle or sth. No need to waste our only GM. :-*
Ahhh...But canon backs me up that being part of the GC is not part of the definition of being clan. Otherwise, the IS clans are no more and, as such, we see NO clans in the future. :)
Remember, clan is a way of life, not a membership in a political body.
Quote from: NVA on April 05, 2010, 04:20:32 PM
Ahhh...But canon backs me up that being part of the GC is not part of the definition of being clan. Otherwise, the IS clans are no more and, as such, we see NO clans in the future. :)
Remember, clan is a way of life, not a membership in a political body.
Which you toss out the window, or go retrieve it on a whim, when it suits you. I have no issue with the hypocrisy IC, but your OOC crap is getting quite old.
I can buy that being part of the GC doesnt denote Clan-ness, but it does confer recognition by the other Clans regardless of the Exiles perspective/opinion of what constitutes being Clan, and they would be fully aware of that particular detail...so they shouldnt bitch about being treated unfairly....
how many turns were the Exiles allowed to have their two worlds WITHOUT interference because "it wasnt public knowledge" that they took over worlds, while other Factions had to contend with Exile raids/Trials, without the opportunity to respond in kind...seems rather "unfair" from my point of view, and possibly others
the IS is always going to view the Exiles with suspicion DUE to their claims of being Clan, which in this case works against them, and being part of the SLHC doesnt win them any points with the Clans, who for the most part still view ALL Successor Houses as being responsible for the fall of the first SL
if the Exiles are so convinced the GC is corrupt, then why arent they doing anything about it...
shouldnt matter who started with the OB, everyone is using it, so IF the Exiles are so against it, why havent they done anything about it
dont like nukes being used, then why havent the Exiles done anything about it
if the Exiles want to see the GC change, then become part of it, initiate reforms and fight for those changes that the reforms would represent, until that time, the Exiles will be perceived as outsiders at best, and bandits at worst, and treated accordingly
if the Exiles want to see change within the IS/3rd SL, then start taking the lead...for isnt part of the mentallity of being Kerensky's Clan mean being leaders, even if those that follow dont agree with where youre leading them
all anyone has really heard from the Exiles is proclamations and lyrical rhetoric, yet have SEEN damn little action...they need to stand up and fight for their beliefs for a change, for if they are really Clan, they should be willing to die for those beliefs, even if it means their death as a Clan
the Exiles, in a sense, are similar to Israel, who even though they were recognized by the vast majority of the Western Nations/UN (US, UK, Germany, Canada, etc), most of the Middle East/PLO didnt recognize Israel as a nation until like 1993, and throughout those nearly 50 years they had to for their right to exist, which is more than the Exiles have done for the most part, unless trapped/cornered with no avenue of escape or ally nearby to aid them
so until the Exiles finally decide to come down off their pedestal and start taking actions in accordance with their principles, heedless of the likely outcome, expect them to continue being viewed as suspect by all parties
Well, we ARE doing something about it. I do not believe the IS used OrBomb or Nukes until this cycle. And, it isn't all that surprising for them. It is the idea of clan superiority being lost by the 'clans' that I am referring to. As the 'little' clan, it should fall on us to use every dirty, sneaky, trick to survive, etc. Instead, we have faced overwhelming numbers, orbital bombardment, etc, and continue to do so in the clan way. And, it takes time to move an entire touman, but, we are in the process of doing something about it. We have been on the front nearly the entire war, even if we weren't involved in some of the major fights. So, we have put our touman where our mouth is.
And, part of my problem all along has been the players ignoring canon when the formed their opinions. I understand OOC some people HATE what the Exiles stand for. However, the IC opinion should at least be formed based on the canon. Does it require lockstep? No. But, that is just my take on how to role play a faction. Otherwise, I could have easily made the Exiles mercs and been doing very well or other similar solution. But, it did not fit IC. I have tweaked and twisted a bit, but have tried to remain close to what I believe is true for my faction. Which means I have remained on friendly terms with clans that canon says I should.
Hey, it wasn't the FedSuns' fault about the Blackwind Lancers. Damn them to the lowest level of Hell for their use of nukes. I just had to pay reparations because of them. I could have built a Fox with all the bells and whistle this turn if not for their actions.
Oh well to prevent anyone else from using the remaining St. Ives Republic's nukes, I will be transporting them to the Outback to be properly taken care of. Does anyone mind if the Dark seems to fly into the them as we set them off?
Quote from: NVA on April 04, 2010, 04:44:56 PM
So, to be clan again, we have to join a group that supports genocide, use of orbital bombardment freely, the use of nuclear weapons, and generally commit the same atrocities that the barbarian lords of the succession wars did?
I see no reason the Grand Council must answer to that description. The Exiles have willfully surrendered their voice in shaping what defines Clan.
Quote from: NVA on April 04, 2010, 04:44:56 PM
The Grand Council is a poor definition of clan anymore.
Neither you nor the Wolves in Exile have any right to judge that that is so. The only extant body with any right to even
consider that question is the Grand Council itself.
Quote from: NVA on April 05, 2010, 04:20:32 PM
the IS clans are no more and, as such, we see NO clans in the future. :)
This is correct. There were no Clans before the Grand Council, and there can be no Clans without it. But let us not consider what is happening in neverland. In this timeline, the IS Clans are members in good standing of the Grand Council. (everyone else is bandits.)
Quote from: NVA on April 05, 2010, 04:20:32 PM
Remember, clan is a way of life, not a membership in a political body.
That way of life includes membership in that political body. Without it, you can
say you're Clan, but that just makes you wrong. You have no right to expect the actual Clans (of which you are not one) to treat you as anything more than bandits.
Bandits who make a pretense at being Clan are still Bandits, and fairly treated as such.
OOC - I disagee with you completely on what defines clan. But, that is the OOC understanding of the clans as written by the creaters and writers.
As much as I enjoy the debate on what is Clan because as we all know, there were at least at one point twenty different definitions on what it really meant to be Clan. For instance, the Steel Vipers want to work with the House Lords to recreate the Star League, and at the same time, they hate all freebirths which all House Lords are. Well maybe not Sun-Tzu Liao since he was planned to have specific genes, but he's dead in this reality anyway. How in the world, they ever would get that to work is a mystery to all. It's logic like that lead their first Khan, who was a hot cyborg I have to admit, to kill Nicholas' wife and expect Nick to just fall into her arms like so much puddy.
Honestly, the only thing that makes one a Clan in my eyes is if they decide to practice and govern by Nick's society standards. And on that note, I will say that everyone and their dog was responsible for the end of the First Star League. But most if not all faults can be laid to rest on the feet of one man, Stefan Amaris. So in the spirit of StarLord, let us all go cut the heads off of Amaris pretenders just like that one famous Steel Viper, Dawn.
And lastly, I enjoyed Marlin saying that the Wolverines are on Terra. So that would mean they are the ilClan, right? (Note, I'm kidding because the Blood have basically stopped calling themselves Wolverines years ago as they should."
Quote from: NVA on April 05, 2010, 08:26:45 PM
I do not believe the IS used OrBomb or Nukes until this cycle. And, it isn't all that surprising for them.
ummm...that is flat out wrong, they have used OB prior to this cycle, a few times against Clans, a few times against one another
the Exiles should be holding everyone to higher standards, and those that fail to meet those standards should be at least hit with Trade Sanctions
QuoteAnd, part of my problem all along has been the players ignoring canon when the formed their opinions.
what info I have for canon Adder views on the Exiles is generally positive, but views, like philosophies and Leaders, can change over time, so I went with what I was informed at the time I joined, because I didnt have access to the same information then that I do now, and have been going with that...though mellowing it a bit as time passed
under Vlad, the Wolves hated the Exiles, yet I bet that attitude has changed several times during the FGC
at one time it appears that the Ravens and Adders got along, yet after the Burrock Absorption, the Ravens may have started seeing the Adders a a greater threat...and it is possible that during the FGC that attitude may have mellowed as well
so your complaints of "going against canon" no longer applies, and hasnt applied for at least 30 Cycles/5+ years In Game Time in my opinion, for I believe that since my becoming a player, EVERY Clan has changed in some way (possible exception being the Spirits), and those changes will have altered their outlook to some degree...some positive towards the Exiles, some negative
and Im willing to bet that if an IS leader comes to power, one who has a hatred for a neighboring IS Nation that is even greater than his/her feelings for the Clans, there may well be a second Front elsewhere involving ONLY IS Nations....
Quote from: GraeGor on April 06, 2010, 03:17:35 AM
and Im willing to bet that if an IS leader comes to power, one who has a hatred for a neighboring IS Nation that is even greater than his/her feelings for the Clans, there may well be a second Front elsewhere involving ONLY IS Nations....
i.e. the Tikonov War where the Draconis Combine instead of attacking the Bears, some other Clan, or even the Lyrans attacked the Federated Suns because it looked more fun especially when they could attacked with the Capellans. The rolls and the megamek games just didn't work out.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on April 06, 2010, 02:54:09 AM
Honestly, the only thing that makes one a Clan in my eyes is if they decide to practice and govern by Nick's society standards
A requirement of those standards is and was membership in and allegiance to the Grand Council, the body which unites and defines the Clans.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on April 06, 2010, 02:54:09 AM
And lastly, I enjoyed Marlin saying that the Wolverines are on Terra. So that would mean they are the ilClan, right?
No. The Wolverines were Abjured and are not Clan.
Even if they were, the concept of ilClan and the conditions for granting it were lawfully Refused by a so-called Star League task force led by Victor Ian Steiner-Davion.
Quoteat one time it appears that the Ravens and Adders got along, yet after the Burrock Absorption, the Ravens may have started seeing the Adders a a greater threat...and it is possible that during the FGC that attitude may have mellowed as well
After the burrocks absorption our allies the Blood Spirits (Who had the grudge against the Burrocks) didn't like the Adders. That and you have to consider, both of our toumans (CBS and CSR) were very small still, and now the Adders are bigger then they were before. I think concern for being absorbed made certain people unite to keep the bigger unit from absorbing them too. The Ravens were weak for a long time.
Player attitudes in the FGC can very greatly from how I envisioned their clan. Everyone knows that I try to be very political still and opportunistic. I feel this is me playing my clan well. But I see Hellions, Vipers and Adders, not being what I would call "Crusaderish". Their mellowing has made it possible to arrange deals, and commerce is something the Ravens repsect. Aslo success. The Star Adder and Bear territories have grown, while Wolf and Jade Falcon continue to shrink. Between this and our recent growth, Clan Snow Raven is worried less about the Star Adders then they used to be, even after they absorbed the Cobras.
Interesting points by all.
Fate: I think your definition of Crusaderish equals dumb, eh? :D Charging right into the IS and battling short and brutal till the appropriate Clan is dead. :-X Well, blame it on the influence of Philippe Lienet, he started being diplomatic towards nearly all Clans early. :P He is guilty!
Harlock: I think an Annihilation includes Abjuration and then a step beyond. So I guess ilClan wont be the correct title. Cancer would fit it more. :P
NVA: I already stated that I respect the WiX for doing so well, well, until now ;) But I think I am more on JediBear's side when it comes to defining what Clan is.
BTW, I like being reviewed in the performance of my Clan, I dont doubt there are enough that dont like the Hellions now. But I can live with that. :) I think much can be explained.
By crusaderish, I mean more aggressive. The WiE is more agressive then the our Clan Wolf, and that's a complete reversal of fotune. The Vipers on Hellgate were doing retailiatory attacks, but have cooled off again after that. The Hellions...have been pretty aggressive I guess. Their hunting of Bandits was very nice, and their zeal at getting into Sudeten was refreshing.
Crusader vs Warden is not about agressive and passive, in my take. Crusader to me is one who believes in burning the IS and rebuilding from the ashes. Wardens, meanwhile, want to protect the IS. Now, there are various temperatures. So, WiE are TRYING to be agressive in defending our claims, but, are not seeking to overthrow the IS.
You're claims seem to be other people's claims ;D
Quote from: Fatebringer on April 06, 2010, 07:13:01 PM
You're claims seem to be other people's claims ;D
Isn't that the clan way? :P
Not to distract from the traditional FGC Clan smack-talk, but I just wanted to let everyone know that the Flashpoint monthly reports are 99% done, so I will be downloading the orders for turn 38 and starting on monthly reports tomorrow.
I will try to get results to everyone ASAP, ideally by Friday.
Quote from: NVA on April 04, 2010, 04:44:56 PM
So, to be clan again, we have to join a group that supports genocide, use of orbital bombardment freely, the use of nuclear weapons, and generally commit the same atrocities that the barbarian lords of the succession wars did? The Grand Council is a poor definition of clan anymore. :)
But very true to the First Star League! It's the thought that counts!
Quote from: chanman on April 07, 2010, 03:17:02 AM
But very true to the First Star League! It's the thought that counts!
and the second....and the third
humanity is a monster and should be wiped out....hehehe
+1 for truth.
Now back to work. :P
Due to me departing the game, Michael Angelus of New Earth is available to be played. Or, someone can replace him completely, if they desire.
Quote from: Marlin on April 05, 2010, 03:49:27 PM
Thanks Dave. Coolio. :)
If you are swamped too much, consider Josh or another dude as Co-GM to load off some burden. Or extend the Cycle or sth. No need to waste our only GM. :-*
Marlin, +1 for good suggestion. See the separate post on this topic.
Already read and commented. Heh.
Now see my Karma rise!! :D
Well.. I say let us post at least in the HWs..
Can anyone tell me if a planet base force has Init compared to a foreign invasion force? I would think that is it logical, but I am not sure.
Like i am attacking hex 0001 of HW9999 hex? And another faction decides to attack hex 0001? If that the case i would think it works just like the IS hexes.
I think its a difference if the one force is already there and the other just has to jump in and then drop to the surface, though.
Hmmmm good point, not sure then; but as i read the rules now it would be the same moving into the 'parent' hex or already being in the 'child' hex.
I also guess there is no rules difference.
Perhaps we should add one.
However, Parmenion? Dagda and Eden will be multi Clan fests, so you might change your titles or add some to reflect that? I will post the stuff now in your threads so we have one consistent location. :)
Quote from: Marlin on April 10, 2010, 07:17:47 PM
However, Parmenion? Dagda and Eden will be multi Clan fests, so you might change your titles or add some to reflect that? I will post the stuff now in your threads so we have one consistent location. :)
All done.
Thanks.
So, let's see if I ever can get this dice thing right (http://intelser.org/forums/Themes/default/images/dice_warn.gif) This dice roll has been tampered with!
Rolled 3d4 : 4, 1, 3, total 8
Well that looks right. And no, I did not tamper with the dice in this OOC roll. I just felt like testing it. Wow, who knew that if you modify a post with a roll in it that you get this message? Learn something new everyday.
It is the warning "someone may have cheated alarm". I have been and always will be for that warning showing up. Just read my signature. ;)
-Josh
Well, after having to leave pretty abruptly a week and a half ago, I'm back. Near as I can tell, it was pretty slow and my absance was pretty much unnocited, but I'm sorry if it did mess anything up. Conversly, as much as I didn't go looking for it, it was nice to have a break from this game. Don't quite know what that says yet, but nice.
Yeah, well some of us are still waiting on the SLDF to get done and intel to be posted so we can post :P Then things should liven up a little.
What the hell is with New Kent? Apparently the Scientists have some kind of new device keeping anyone from Jumping in there...
Hi guys, apologies for my recent silence. Wasn't feeling well over the weekend, same for Monday. Wrapping up reports now, so I will try to get you all your PMs in the next few hours.
There is a last thread coming up. Silentwarrior, I need your info to complete that. :)
Well, Afaik, last Invasion thread posted.
I need reactions from Lyrans, Scorpions, Bears and Monkeys. (Mandrills are no more) SLDF might be somewhere too.
For next turn, we would need some more clarification. Example: Blockade is established, can be run with good chances for the attacker, now.. to increase a blockade, you have also free units normally to invade.. can you let them do Offense Interdiction? So that they have to punch through them first, then the Blockade?
Hey everyone, just wanted to give a quick heads-up - I'm still alive, but I'm a little backlogged. I will be following up on everything over the next couple of days.
Thanks for your patience.
No problem. It isn't like Yvonne has seized power on Terra in a mad desire to build a huge Teddy Bear of Destruction that transforms into a warship. Lingering restraints from Welshman and my own good sense keep me from doing such a audacious plan.
Though I'm sure that the Ghost Bears would adapt the design for more terrifying results. ;D
They would, but then the Nova Cats would try and take it, and the Bears would win a Phyrric victory that left with them with Teddy Bear of Destruction and nothing else.
Hey Dave.. dont wanna bug you, but you once talked about a Clan only sub forum to discuss? with only entrance for Clan playaz?
(not with those shoes.)
If PMing is still a problem, that is. So far it worked quite well.
Hello Clan Players. A appreciate the increase in RP, that is very good. However, much comes from a lack of Info. And that is a thing that cannot be good. Example Foster, which even reached the Grand Council: Had the Monkeys posted their force in time then the Spirits would not have gotten to extend their invitation and sour the attacking forces, leading to some other changes as well. Same on Marshall, although there is no such thing by another faction.
It might still work out well if the GMs finally post it (soon, already asked) but it is a thing I wanted to comment on.
Sorry to disturb your little land-grab with good RP, Marlin. ;)
As long as I get my land, I have no problem with that. :D
So greedy... you make a much better Spheroid than you do a Clanner. :P
You have too long lived in the seclusion of your small holdings. :D
You should try some more land grabbing against the IS. Trust me. It is a win-win situation.
Nah, I'd rather fight enemies that are actually deserving of it. ;)
well, who is more deserving it that Monkeys?
Thats a rhetorical question.
<insert eyeroll>
Moving on.
Quote from: NVA on April 24, 2010, 03:57:51 PM
Parm...I asked for some time to look into it is all. Further, I am looking into whether I have a valid point that the official rules thread on this site lists the rule I posted versus the version that the OOC thread references. Thank you for your patience while I try to contact ADB.
+1 for doin the right thing ;)
Hmmm anyone remembers why Sulla's Roost turned into a member world after turn 34?
I inquired at the GMs if you could attack Sulla´s roost and was told that it is not possible (by Ashenwelt IIRC).
I posted the PM in the Map thread and the map was changed accordingly.
Folks,
Just to let you all know that silentwarrior is once again taking over the leadership of the Capellan Empire and so all CE related correspondence should go to him. Hopefully my short stint at housesitting didn't totally screw the faction over.
cheers
Okay all.......
It is time for you all to start cleaning up your open combat threads. Any threads that you have a GM question about please send us a PM so that we can resolve those. I am sorry that Dave has been MIA, and I am trying to get in touch with him as I have some questions as well. Again, please clean up the threads that you are able to in a timely manner.
Please remember to mark the completed threads as complete.
-Josh
I have the Homer issue with the Sharks and an attack with the TH that never happened, which is troublesome because the forces moving were at planting; so if they didnt move they would have influenced the hunting for the Bismark.
Cats, Scorps have no issues are i am staring to do their orders.
I already sent all the threads needing GM attention.
Hi guys, thank you for your patience while I was away. I am not refreshed and ready to get back into the thick of things.
Due to my absence, I know we have passed the end of the active phase of the turn without some important threads being resolved. I am going to try and get things completed ASAP, but please let me know if you guys want a one week turn extension to ensure no one is rushed.
Quote from: JediBear on April 18, 2010, 10:56:31 AM
"Greetings, my Khans. My name is Athena Kabrinski.
+1 for bringing back a cool character.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on April 26, 2010, 11:44:24 PM
I am not refreshed and ready to get back into the thick of things.
Maybe we should take the extension... this may be a freudian slip... ;D
Ooh - double points by accident!
Quote from: Dave Baughman on April 26, 2010, 11:44:24 PM
Hi guys, thank you for your patience while I was away. I am not refreshed and ready to get back into the thick of things.
Due to my absence, I know we have passed the end of the active phase of the turn without some important threads being resolved. I am going to try and get things completed ASAP, but please let me know if you guys want a one week turn extension to ensure no one is rushed.
I think we can get most of the stuff done, with the exception of RP done by next week. However, I think we can all agree we need a HW map.
I will put the Map Maker in a gimp suit and make him do all the maps or face the wrath of some very gay elementals.........
-Josh
Quote from: GreyJaeger on April 27, 2010, 01:38:04 AM
Quote from: Dave Baughman on April 26, 2010, 11:44:24 PM
Hi guys, thank you for your patience while I was away. I am not refreshed and ready to get back into the thick of things.
Due to my absence, I know we have passed the end of the active phase of the turn without some important threads being resolved. I am going to try and get things completed ASAP, but please let me know if you guys want a one week turn extension to ensure no one is rushed.
I think we can get most of the stuff done, with the exception of RP done by next week. However, I think we can all agree we need a HW map.
Huh...I thought the gimp suit was already his everyday wear... *shrug*
Quote from: LittleH13 on April 27, 2010, 01:42:44 AM
I will put the Map Maker in a gimp suit and make him do all the maps or face the wrath of some very gay elementals.........
-Josh
Quote from: GreyJaeger on April 27, 2010, 01:38:04 AM
Quote from: Dave Baughman on April 26, 2010, 11:44:24 PM
Hi guys, thank you for your patience while I was away. I am not refreshed and ready to get back into the thick of things.
Due to my absence, I know we have passed the end of the active phase of the turn without some important threads being resolved. I am going to try and get things completed ASAP, but please let me know if you guys want a one week turn extension to ensure no one is rushed.
I think we can get most of the stuff done, with the exception of RP done by next week. However, I think we can all agree we need a HW map.
+1 to Holt for the section labeled in red. I reward honesty. Holt found the error from the previous turn and even though he did not do the orders for that turn he let us know about it.
-Josh
QuoteHi guys, I apologize for not adressing this sooner. If you have sent me PMs on the subject, please be aware that I have a double-digit number of PMs in my box right now so I may not have read them yet... I'm not ignoring you, just un-burying myself right now.
As best as I can tell, what happened OOC is:
•In turn 37, a combined WIE/DC naval force entered Leskovic on naval engagement orders. They found no opposition in space.
•No ground engagement occured, and the planet remained under JF control (albeit with hostile warships in orbit).
•Due to some creative movement orders, the DC force ended its turn in a different hex, effectively leaving the WIE holding the bag.
•Based on the OOC commentary here, it appears that the DC did not notify the WIE of this "maneuver."
IC, this is the sequence of events:
•Turn 37 - Combined DC and WIE forces enter the system.
•Turn 37 - DC force leaves the system (presumedly right at the end of the turn).
•Turn 38 - Clan counterattack force arrives, rolling a higher initiative than the WIE.
•Turn 38 - Clan blockade is in place prior to WIE leaving the system.
•Turn 38 - WIE commanders realize they have been shafted by their Inner Sphere allies yet again.
As some have correctly pointed out, the rules rollback on bloackeds does not take effect until next turn. This is in direct response to player feedback asking for more lead time on rules changes (which in turn grew out of dissatisfaction with the "lightning erratas" that occasionally occured on CBT).
Having said that, I have no problem with the new rules being implemented in this thread as long as there are no objections. That's a decision for you all to make as players.
Please shoot me a PM if there are additional concerns or issues growing out of this and I will try to address them ASAP. I will also answer any addition items that have already been PM'd to me as soon as I get caught up on my backlog.
Well, Dave, if YOU need another week to take it on slowly, then I am all for it. I really was worrying, and knowing I will have to do 2 Order Sheets now.. Next turn, I am done with the Falcons though. :)
I would like to have one more week. But it's just me.
hey Marlin, if doing the falcons will be too much for you, i'll do it. i might just need to ask your help on a few things here and there though. if it lessens your workload. i've been trying to spend some time with the order sheet since you sent it to me, i think i've got a ok handle on it so far.
Deal.
BTW - who is doing the CoPS this turn?
I know things were messed up last turn, but wanted it worked out a bit this turn early...
Quote from: Jeyar on April 27, 2010, 11:04:54 PM
BTW - who is doing the CoPS this turn?
I know things were messed up last turn, but wanted it worked out a bit this turn early...
I don't believe I received a COPS sheet for turn 38, so if you want to tackle them for 39 just start with the 37 sheet and go from there.
Hmmm...
I was told I thought that a turn 38 was turned in "early".
However in either case, if I can get a copy of turn 37, I'll get right on that.
Quote from: Jeyar on April 28, 2010, 09:17:30 AM
Hmmm...
I was told I thought that a turn 38 was turned in "early".
However in either case, if I can get a copy of turn 37, I'll get right on that.
I just checked the GM thread and confirmed that I don't have any 38 orders for COPS. I just forwarded you the turn 37 sheet for reference.
Quote from: Fatebringer on April 28, 2010, 09:42:30 PM
Congratulations you just spawned a new VIP with it's own Special Ops team to settle their Vendetta against you for nuking everyone they ever loves. "Yvonne ... was such a nice girl once ... and then they Nuked New Avalon..."
You know it might not take nuking New Avalon to drive Yvonne over the edge. In the last year, she has witnessed the death of a close ally, the stabbing of her brother, the coma of another brother, and the death of a potential fiancee. Plus that whole problem in the Periphery. One more thing may just drive her over the edge.
"First Princess, the plumber was at the castle. We have to replace all the pipes and the sewage is backed up. The entire castle smells like Mandrill weaponry."
Quote from: Lord Harlock on April 29, 2010, 04:31:00 AM
Quote from: Fatebringer on April 28, 2010, 09:42:30 PM
Congratulations you just spawned a new VIP with it's own Special Ops team to settle their Vendetta against you for nuking everyone they ever loves. "Yvonne ... was such a nice girl once ... and then they Nuked New Avalon..."
You know it might not take nuking New Avalon to drive Yvonne over the edge. In the last year, she has witnessed the death of a close ally, the stabbing of her brother, the coma of another brother, and the death of a potential fiancee. Plus that whole problem in the Periphery. One more thing may just drive her over the edge.
QuoteSo unless the GMs have something shadey in mind for Foster, I believe we just need to get the Mandrill roll for damage they deal.
Damn.......I think that us "shadey GMs" will just make it so the TH gets Foster and gets all the Salvage. We are also going to have 10000 FP of clan tech mechs magically appear there with uber elite -1/-1 pilots, and 200000 FP of uber elite Warships......
IS THAT SHADEY ENOUGH FOR YOU..... ;) ;) :P :P ;) ;D ;D
-"Shadey" Rules Hauptmann Josh
[glare] Now cut that out! [/glare]
That's only happened....twice!
Quote from: NVA on April 29, 2010, 10:55:11 AM
"First Princess, the plumber was at the castle. We have to replace all the pipes and the sewage is backed up. The entire castle smells like Mandrill weaponry."
"That's it! I'm a First Prince not a Princess!" Yvonne pulls out her epee along with a strange Prince's costume. "If the egg's shell does not break, the chick will die without being born. We are the chick; the egg is the world. If the world's shell does not break, we will die without being born. Break the world's shell! For the sake of revolutionizing the world!"
Two guards just watch the First Prince walking around muttering. One mutters to the other one. "Do you think this happened much with First Prince Melissa Davion?" The other guy shook his head. "No, she merely had nightly romantic interludes . . .with her guards."
"Nuts!"
*Note, I don't even like Utena, but the fencing thing just worked so well.
IF you're going that route, who'se gonna be your Rose Bride? ;)
Considering I consider Utena is a story that is at best about insanity. The Rose Bride is Quintus Allard just because it sound insane. ;)
Quote from: LittleH13 on April 29, 2010, 02:20:25 PM
QuoteSo unless the GMs have something shadey in mind for Foster, I believe we just need to get the Mandrill roll for damage they deal.
Damn.......I think that us "shadey GMs" will just make it so the TH gets Foster and gets all the Salvage. We are also going to have 10000 FP of clan tech mechs magically appear there with uber elite -1/-1 pilots, and 200000 FP of uber elite Warships......
IS THAT SHADEY ENOUGH FOR YOU..... ;) ;) :P :P ;) ;D ;D
-"Shadey" Rules Hauptmann Josh
Nah you forgot the warships.
I sent it by email, but I thought it was important to post here so that it was known to look at the email. I have a fairly major question on one part of the orders I have for the CoPS. Like a fairly big in terms of forces question.
Yep, pretty big.
+1 To NVA for making the mistakes on the orders that made the DCMS leave Leskovic, and then blame the DCMS for it after you stopped doing the orders ;) NICE recovery! Very Raven ;)
Now you see what it was like for us when the "Truth" behind Dehra Dun came out ;) DENY! DENY! DENY!
HunterADA did the mistake on orders. I was just given command of a magical fleet that never seemed to actually be under my command. LOL
Hey, when you submit it, it's you're mistake ;)
I've made mistakes :P the had to send my "I'm sorry PM's to the GM's with updates. Speaking sorries, sorry I used names here :P I just loved what we could infer from those statements ;)
OOC Question...Didn't Sir Paul Masters do something in the FGC to bring shame to himself? I don't recall which battle that it occured, but, some atrocity was blamed on him.
Quote from: NVA on April 30, 2010, 12:30:41 AM
OOC Question...Didn't Sir Paul Masters do something in the FGC to bring shame to himself? I don't recall which battle that it occured, but, some atrocity was blamed on him.
During the war between the Core Alliance and the FWL, the 1st KOTIS (not/not under Masters' command) was defending against overwhelming TH odds in a city in Romita. There are two versions of what happened:
TH story: the Knights of the Inner Sphere used the city for cover without evacuating civilians to try and "force" the CA into killing civilians. FWL forces subsequently indiscriminately used artillery during the battle. The entire maneuver was a cynical ploy to turn public opinion against the Core Alliance, and was an unforgiveable stain on the Knights of the Inner Sphere. On a related note, around the same time the 2nd KOTIS (also not under Masters' direct command) made motions to suggest they would militarily support the FRR during the HPG crisis that lead up to Second Tukayyid. The 2nd KOTIS never actually got involved, but the TH points to this as yet another sign that the KOTIS can't be trusted.
FWL story: the Knights of the Inner Sphere were forced to take cover in the city because Alliance warships in orbit were maneuvering into orbital attack positions (its worth noting that the WOB side of the Alliance had repeatedly and vocally advocated orbital strikes as part of their basic strategic plan, so FWL's claim isn't entirely tin-hat territory). Artillery was only called on because of the overwhelming Core Alliance numbers, and every effort was made to evacuate civilians to shelters before the Alliance actually reached the city limits. Immediately after the fight there were claims in the FWL media (ComStar and WOB refused to transmit these reports, so they got very little play beyond the FWL) that the Alliance used tactical nuclear weapons in the fight. It is generally accepted now, however, that the explosions were actually a (bizarrely high) number of 'Mech reactors breaching during the fighting.
So... Masters was not involved in the events on Romita and Tukayyid, but he is probably very unpopular in the TH due to his association with the KOTIS. Hardcore whitehats might have similar opinions, but that is an RP decision.
You know I couldn't recall which KOTIS unit was involved in the fun little battle in the FWL/ Core Alliance War Mark II, but I did recall that Masters was out of sync at the time. And honestly, the only thing that I can that I figure is that he was Thomas Marik during his tenure as last First Lord of the Second Star League.
I think that is how we played it. I thought about leaning on him a few times, but honestly none of the FWL players were really Paul Masters fans, and with Thomas out of the loop most of the time and the FWL having little to do with the SLDF, with which Paul was closely linked in canon, there was very little for him to do. I think he took part in the campaign against the Falcons in secondary roles (we had one offensive, but we ran into heavy air cover and turned back, drawing a lot of heat since we didn't contribute anywarships. we countered that we contributed 15 out of 60 regements, and we needed the two Thera groups we started the game with at home, but that may be yet another mark against Sir Paul). But Colonal DeSuzza was our point man for the SLDF most of the time, so Paul's role in that is not clear. After Thomas' election, he was almost certanly an advisor for the mostly inactive First Lord (again, perhaps another black mark here).
Oh. My. God.
This month has been absolutely atrocious in terms of getting anything non-work done. If I get any farther behind here, I'm gonna get lapped.
Trying desperately to get caught up, which is going to be complicated by a car show (I'm taking "Bumblebee", my '66 Bug, to Bug-In 35 (http://www.bugin.com/)) out of town this weekend, but I'll see what I can do over the next four days (I took tomorrow and Monday off, to both get ready, and recover, from the show).
Quote from: Giovanni Blasini on April 30, 2010, 07:02:16 AM
Oh. My. God.
This month has been absolutely atrocious in terms of getting anything non-work done. If I get any farther behind here, I'm gonna get lapped.
Trying desperately to get caught up, which is going to be complicated by a car show (I'm taking "Bumblebee", my '66 Bug, to Bug-In 35 (http://www.bugin.com/)) out of town this weekend, but I'll see what I can do over the next four days (I took tomorrow and Monday off, to both get ready, and recover, from the show).
It's all good... you weren't the only one who got a bit behind on the gaming stuff (::tries to look innocent::). Glad to know you're still with us :)
All thats left now is the Adder invasion threads, I think. And some behind the scenes stuff, I guess. :D
Ladies, prepare for a new round of nightmarish action.
And can anybody tell me what happened to the RS at Pasig? It went offline from 34th to 35th turn, I suppose, but why? Could not make out much else. I kind of doubt there was a disrupt SpecOP against such a minor target.
Can anybody share?
And I think Cannonshop has wanted to become part of this forum, he waited for an access Mail? Is it a problem or is it more a technical error?
Quote from: Marlin on May 01, 2010, 11:10:34 AM
And can anybody tell me what happened to the RS at Pasig? It went offline from 34th to 35th turn, I suppose, but why? Could not make out much else. I kind of doubt there was a disrupt SpecOP against such a minor target.
Can anybody share?
And I think Cannonshop has wanted to become part of this forum, he waited for an access Mail? Is it a problem or is it more a technical error?
Fire Mandrills attacked it with a WarShip... IIRC it was supposed to be offline for 4 turns, so it should be back online next turn.
Ah. Thats cool then. :)
Quote"Both votes are in. Are there any who would choose to refuse one of these votes?"
Plus + for following proper proceedure XD.
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=118.msg2683#msg2683
Tiny text is tiny.
Some good news regarding the old threads - I have gotten permission from Paul to repost the archived material onto Intelser. I will try to upload everything this weekend, and from there I will gradually update it all into the wiki.
Of course, anyone can go into the wiki (http://fc62.intelser.org) and expand/contribute to speed things up.
Which things did you save, Dave?
I mean, will there be things to move by ourselves?
Quote from: Marlin on May 06, 2010, 05:49:02 PM
Which things did you save, Dave?
I mean, will there be things to move by ourselves?
All in-character threads are being archived. Not much has been uploaded yet - most of that will be coming this weekend.
There shouldn't be any need for anyone else to back up items, but certainly once I upload everything if you want to contribute to the wiki, feel free :)
OK. What about the stuff from btechunits? That was the even older cool stuff. ;)
And I suppose it is posted in that wiki? (No clue how that works)
Quote from: Marlin on May 06, 2010, 06:24:24 PM
OK. What about the stuff from btechunits? That was the even older cool stuff. ;)
And I suppose it is posted in that wiki? (No clue how that works)
I got a partial download of btechunits before it crashed a while back. I will try to get the rest, but I am prioritizing CBT.com currently because soon the boards there will be deleted to make room for 3010.
<<Pokes Dave>> FP 3090 VIPs!!!
Will always remind you XD
Okay, I thought that crazy post was a spammer and we were gonna get spammed a lot but Dave moved it to the administrative section :P
Quote from: Fatebringer on May 06, 2010, 10:31:37 PM
Okay, I thought that crazy post was a spammer and we were gonna get spammed a lot but Dave moved it to the administrative section :P
Oh trust me, it was a spammer. He just earned himself an IP ban and a deleted account for his trouble.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on May 06, 2010, 03:28:24 AM
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=118.msg2683#msg2683
Tiny text is tiny.
I didn't know that everything was going to be saved, so I copied the important character information. Those that are canon characters didn't get copied.
Hey Holt, you might adjust most of your Raid threads. Unless your Drac troops are reaaally late. :P
Its Cycle 39 already.
Crap, thats what i get for copy pasting and not thinking, my bad.
Quote from: Holt on May 07, 2010, 07:23:06 PM
Crap, thats what i get for copy pasting and not thinking, my bad.
Speaking in copypasta... well, just pasta actually, I just discovered that one of my neighbors is a Pastafarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastafarian). Seriously, his car has an FSM "fish" on it.
(http://www.darwinuk.com/images/uploads/FSM_badge_300.JPG)
I lolled.
Lol. Thats a good neighbour. Does he worship in Pirate regalia? :D
Is that the flying spaghetti monster I keep hearing about?
I love the FSM.....It is just as bad as all the other magical pixies in the sky.
Well, I personally love Clan Space Rabbit aka the Dark. Honestly, they must be mating their Congresses.
Hey I keep trying to tell you guys. FWL merchants will sell to anyone. When foreign IS governments don't keep my defense factories humming (with my markup).
Those factories don't just lie fallow. People got to eat and you can't eat bullets...well you can but only once."
Sincerely,
Thomas Marik Lord of War.
"Excuse me sir I think you mean Warlord."
" I like it my way better."
Welcome to the Club. Sigh.
*reads new combat posts* Someone tell me the Dark fielding how many galaxies is the GM's idea of a very poor joke?
if they had 20+ Galaxies, i'd be worried about it.
As it is, i see elements from the Mist and Shadow Galaxies, and 2 Galaxies is probably the majority of their force.
Yeah I did miss read that, however that doesn't make it any more believable to me, just did a quick crunching of the FPs for this little band of survivors.
Ground Troops: 344.25
Aero: 111.75
Naval: 207
i agree, thats quite the force they've put together. one of my mostly-operational galaxies is in the mid-90sFP, mixed Aero/Ground...so i would say thats a very dangerous force they've pulled together out there.
better deal with them quickly before they gain more strength :P
Quote from: Daemonknight on May 10, 2010, 11:54:10 AM
i agree, thats quite the force they've put together. one of my mostly-operational galaxies is in the mid-90sFP, mixed Aero/Ground...so i would say thats a very dangerous force they've pulled together out there.
better deal with them quickly before they gain more strength :P
Whats the point they'll simple get bigger by the time we can marshal anything together to throw at them, which seems to be the whole way this goes. The Dark attack and then vanish, we search for them across dozens of systems no luck, then they're back bigger and meaner then before, rinse repeat, all the while being told well if you wouldn't ignore them this wouldn't be happening. Now we have had multiple factions scouring the periphery for The Dark with no success over a number of turns. You should be glad the Scientists weren't as hard to find as these guys.
You think we've found the main scientist? Oh you are so wrong there. We are only acting on the clans that aided them atm.
Quote from: Morganna on May 10, 2010, 12:08:24 PM
Quote from: Daemonknight on May 10, 2010, 11:54:10 AM
i agree, thats quite the force they've put together. one of my mostly-operational galaxies is in the mid-90sFP, mixed Aero/Ground...so i would say thats a very dangerous force they've pulled together out there.
better deal with them quickly before they gain more strength :P
Whats the point they'll simple get bigger by the time we can marshal anything together to throw at them, which seems to be the whole way this goes. The Dark attack and then vanish, we search for them across dozens of systems no luck, then they're back bigger and meaner then before, rinse repeat, all the while being told well if you wouldn't ignore them this wouldn't be happening. Now we have had multiple factions scouring the periphery for The Dark with no success over a number of turns. You should be glad the Scientists weren't as hard to find as these guys.
Just get the CPS on their case. We've all been told how good they are, more than once, so it should be a snap for them.
Actually, the force that the CPS sent to find the Dark got eaten alive by space. Let's just put it this way, the Dark have only faced one defeat since they reappeared. They lost a battleship to a Fox Corvette. That's it. Every other time, it has been the Hulk versus Matter Eater Lad. Alas poor Matter Eater Lad, he just can't eat the Hulk.
You guys are cracking me up. The Dark are not as strong as you think..and now that Dave and I are running them you can be assured that they will not get exponentially larger every other turn....
Just read my banner. :P
-Josh
So I'm guessing that the forces attacking the TC are not changing their colors?
Drat, now I'm out of position. :D ;D
You know, we need that smilie with the grin and the horns from the CBT site...
One thing to mention with the Dark... not to be a "mysterious hint-dropping GM" or anything, but there may be more to that faction's surprising bounce-back (which admittedly has been the result of what, 7 years of rebuilding?)...
Actually, I'm just trying to find the PM I got a few months ago that listed one of the supposed hexes they were stationed at (home base as it were). Lost it for now...
Anyway, I haven't been successful in finding a replacement as FedSuns Head which is something that I told Dave that I'd do, so I might as well announce it now.
At the end of this turn, I'm leaving 3062 since I'll be running the 3010 game on cbt. And so there will be a need for a new FedSuns Head. I'll help as much as possible, but I have things to do as they say.
Those invasions of the DC by the BS need some attention, need to see if they will try to pass the defensive interdiction.
He's probably waiting for you to post your interdiction forces :P He did post his invasion ones.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on May 10, 2010, 04:31:49 PM
Anyway, I haven't been successful in finding a replacement as FedSuns Head which is something that I told Dave that I'd do, so I might as well announce it now.
At the end of this turn, I'm leaving 3062 since I'll be running the 3010 game on cbt. And so there will be a need for a new FedSuns Head. I'll help as much as possible, but I have things to do as they say.
Damn, man. Chanman is going too. That bloody 3010 game is bleeding our victi.. erm players out. :(
Seriously, those aint no good news. I say, the one who wants to leave has to find 2 new players first. :D
Dont have to till he commits his forces, i dont like it either but its the way its been done to me. For now all i had to say is that a defensive interdiction in place.
I thought it was you don't have to post your forces, but you did have to post your FP. :P
I dont like it anymore than you do, but its how its been handled against me; just stating that there is a defensive interdiction.
Ok guys. Here is the deal on the map. We have a volunteer that has finished the FP3090 map and is now working on the FGC 62 map. He has said that I should have a draft to proof by Friday. I hope that our illustrious Head GM/Board Admin will put the new FP3090 map up so you can all view it.
Thank you again for your patience.
-Josh
PS- As a side note there will no longer be 4 maps (IS, DP, HW and detailed HW) there will now be 2 maps, a combined and then the detailed HW map. This will hopefully make movement between all of the zones easier.
Dave Baughman - just in case the PM didn't work, I am under the impression I'm to contact you about the Dark attacks. Is that on the right path, or am I dogging the wrong scent? ;D
You are correct Jeyar, and I got your PM. As a practical matter we will probabl need to go to simple res on most of the fights, but maybe we can fit one in at some point this month. I'll respond in more detail when I bang out a proper answer.
With regard to PMs both from you and everyone else, I have developed a bit of a work backlog over the last few days. I am going to try to answer all of my backlogged PMs tomorrow, so if you are waiting for an answer on one of them you will get it soon.
Thanks for bearing with me.
I'm glad that it worked, but sorry you're swamped. :(
Would opening things up for proxies be a good idea? ???
I think there was one person that was pretty good at aerospace battles (since all TC related battles involve aerospace first) that wanted a chance to blow me up... ;D
Quote from: Jeyar on May 13, 2010, 01:46:07 AM
I'm glad that it worked, but sorry you're swamped. :(
Would opening things up for proxies be a good idea? ???
I think there was one person that was pretty good at aerospace battles (since all TC related battles involve aerospace first) that wanted a chance to blow me up... ;D
I certainly have no objection to proxies on the Dark side of any of those fights.
Thanks!
I posted a call for Proxies on those threads. ;D
I notice several threads going online later than the 10th. Was there not a rule that all had to be posted till the 10th? Ok, time was close with Intel and such and likely might be every turn, however, we should agree on a latest date, should we not? And if it is the 12th or 13th, but then for all to know.
Greetings.
For the time being, I am out. I got step away from some of this crap going on in this game.
I might be back for the end of turn, but not before then.
Quote from: Marlin on May 13, 2010, 04:06:26 PM
I notice several threads going online later than the 10th. Was there not a rule that all had to be posted till the 10th? Ok, time was close with Intel and such and likely might be every turn, however, we should agree on a latest date, should we not? And if it is the 12th or 13th, but then for all to know.
Greetings.
In the case of Dompaire, there was some issue that the GMs had to deal with before it could be posted, and it was not intel that was the problem. Since Chanman finally posted the thread, I figure the issue has been resolved since I merely supporting him there.
Honestly after the Camels showed up on Antares, I really wanted the Lucien Davion Battlegroup there, so that was why I was trying to get a roll for initiative because I was hoping that I'd get a 2 or something with my usual rolls. And then both Iron Mongoose and I rolled in the double digits. Honestly, that's just insane.
And my hopes for sending my warships in the Periphery to hunt the Dark failed. So, I'm not looking forward to any further rolls for the rest of the turn.
Quote from: GreyJaeger on May 13, 2010, 04:17:31 PM
For the time being, I am out. I got step away from some of this crap going on in this game.
I might be back for the end of turn, but not before then.
I had to take a day or two off as well. After losing the rest of the FedSuns faction after the Dark posting this turn and my continued failure to find a replacement head, I was just drained. So I understand.
No...I was just told I have to quit, ya know, role-playing.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on May 13, 2010, 04:38:12 PM
Quote from: Marlin on May 13, 2010, 04:06:26 PM
I notice several threads going online later than the 10th. Was there not a rule that all had to be posted till the 10th? Ok, time was close with Intel and such and likely might be every turn, however, we should agree on a latest date, should we not? And if it is the 12th or 13th, but then for all to know.
Greetings.
In the case of Dompaire, there was some issue that the GMs had to deal with before it could be posted, and it was not intel that was the problem. Since Chanman finally posted the thread, I figure the issue has been resolved since I merely supporting him there.
Honestly after the Camels showed up on Antares, I really wanted the Lucien Davion Battlegroup there, so that was why I was trying to get a roll for initiative because I was hoping that I'd get a 2 or something with my usual rolls. And then both Iron Mongoose and I rolled in the double digits. Honestly, that's just insane.
And my hopes for sending my warships in the Periphery to hunt the Dark failed. So, I'm not looking forward to any further rolls for the rest of the turn.
Quote from: GreyJaeger on May 13, 2010, 04:17:31 PM
For the time being, I am out. I got step away from some of this crap going on in this game.
I might be back for the end of turn, but not before then.
I had to take a day or two off as well. After losing the rest of the FedSuns faction after the Dark posting this turn and my continued failure to find a replacement head, I was just drained. So I understand.
Quote from: Marlin on May 13, 2010, 04:06:26 PM
I notice several threads going online later than the 10th. Was there not a rule that all had to be posted till the 10th? Ok, time was close with Intel and such and likely might be every turn, however, we should agree on a latest date, should we not? And if it is the 12th or 13th, but then for all to know.
Greetings.
Because of a bunch of factors (mainly the intel reports getting delayed - totally my fault) I haven't been holding people to the "you must post by the 10th" rule for this turn. Of course, this isn't the same as accepting late orders, so we're not going to have a situation like we had a few turns back. I would say that all threads should be posted no later than the end of the day this Sunday - with the exception of stuff held up on hostile movement, etc, which is beyond individual players' control.
So we are still at the 10th as latest? OK. :)
Quote from: Marlin on May 13, 2010, 06:22:27 PM
So we are still at the 10th as latest? OK. :)
This Sunday is the 16th.
I meant in principle. I understood what you wrote before, of course. :)
Anyhow, allright.
Hi folks, as some of you may have noticed, some rat bastards vandalized the wiki yesterday. All of the pages have been restored, but user registration is now required to edit the Wiki.
I apologize for the inconvenience.
Rots that someone ripped it, good you got it back.
I noticed. Thanks, Dave.
That dishonorable scum! >:(
I didn't ask in part as I didn't want to look suspicious, but I couldn't find the link for the site. Exactly where is it? I'd like to delete one of the posts on the TC thread but until I see it backed up somewhere...
http://fc62.intelser.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
I think that should be it.
Quote from: Marlin on May 16, 2010, 11:39:31 AM
http://fc62.intelser.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
I think that should be it.
+1 for truth.
Additionally, all of the threads from CBT.com can be found archived here:
http://fc62.intelser.org/Archives
Bookmarked. I saw it once, but then never again.
Thats the real classic stuff, dudes. ;D
Oh, or I am wrong? What is with the BTechunits archive? Do we have it or is it lost? Cuz thats the reaaal classic stuff.
OK, found it. Phew. :) All is good.
Quote from: Marlin on May 16, 2010, 11:39:31 AM
http://fc62.intelser.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
I think that should be it.
Thanks! (and Dave's post too)
Just some minor commentary on the legal questions raised in the Grand Council thread.
The limits of the ilKhan's authority are very poorly defined (no doubt a deliberate choice on Big Nick's part). There is past precedent for Trials of Refusal being bid down from the vote ratio so that one Clan could claim the honor of the refusal, but this has also been abused in the past (see the infamous "Falcon saKhan vs. Sellen Cage" trial, where the JF's basically sabotaged an attempt to remove the previous ilKhan by bidding ridiculously below the cutdown and then basically standing in open terrain and letting the ilKhan blow up their warrior).
Diana can easily, by ilKhan fiat, alter the procedures of the Grand Council to suit her own intepretation of how Clan Law should be adjudicated. The collective Khans can always defy her of course, and Grand Loremaster Laurie Tseng (controlled by the Ras Dom players) could always question the jurisprudence, but the ilKhan's word is, literaly, law - giving her significant leeway.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I have no intention to interfere in the RP one way or the other, just wanted to chime in to the OOC questons that were raised.
My understanding is actually that the ilKhan's power is fairly limited and that our sketchy knowledge of the limits of its authority has more to do with Phelan Kell's poor scholarship than to any desire by NK to leave the office open to abuse.
As far as I'm concerned, Diana is well outside that authority, but I'll hold off on having Laurie challenge it so that Daemonknight has time to deal with any errors.
I tend to favor the more nebulious, might makes right aproach. The ilKhan's powers are whatever the other Khans will let him or her get away with. Did Ulric have the power to bid for all the Clans? Did Din Steiner? Or did they manage it because none of the other Khans stopped them (untill they got Ulric eventualy anyway)?
as has now been pointed out in the thread, i wasnt trying to alter the actual bidding with my first post. It was long because i was OOC trying to both ask if we had done it right, and also stating that in my understanding of the laws(now said to be incorrect, which doesn't surprise me), the ratio wasn't supposed to be changed.
So, to clarify: the post dealing with the ratios question was 100% OOC me asking about protocol.
the 2nd post, where Diana sets up a time limit is the IC portion of that. I didn't want to IC move on my interpretation until i had someone else tell me i was correct...and they've said i was wrong, so I'm glad i did it the way i did.
What's the status on the Terran Advisory Council? Last I can recall, they'd still yet to elect a leader. One imagines that, especaly given the intensification of the war of late, that who that leader is would be significant and it would be disirable to be getting on with it. But perhaps I missed something.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on May 17, 2010, 08:49:38 PM
What's the status on the Terran Advisory Council? Last I can recall, they'd still yet to elect a leader. One imagines that, especaly given the intensification of the war of late, that who that leader is would be significant and it would be disirable to be getting on with it. But perhaps I missed something.
That's basically the current situation. Apollyon has been running day to day affairs in the absence of a head of state since both Marsh and Wolf are in the field.
We need to get the GC trial done soon. As far as I see it, a motion has been called for and seconded. As this would distract even further from the issue, either handwave it away or else. And the bidding seems to have ended. So..
:-\
Will there be a Cycle 40 Map thread?
the Trial in the GC has been forestalled untill after involved units complete combat operations. As the last bid i am aware of was the Wolves, the trial can commence as soon as the Wolves and Vipers battle it out.
The GC can move on to other topics at this point.
Quote from: Daemonknight on May 24, 2010, 10:04:56 AM
the Trial in the GC has been forestalled untill after involved units complete combat operations. As the last bid i am aware of was the Wolves, the trial can commence as soon as the Wolves and Vipers battle it out.
The GC can move on to other topics at this point.
Nope..It was the Sharks.
Ah...well, whoever it was. Still, its out of the GC's hands, Diana's deadline has passed, the bidding is stoped where it was. Its upto the Vipers to choose the location for the trial, and then once they both have their forces availible, it can begin.
Thought the challenged dictated the particulars.
Regardless, if the Scorpions do not mind, Manaringaine (2406) should be sufficient.
Quote from: Marlin on May 24, 2010, 08:34:01 AM
:-\
Will there be a Cycle 40 Map thread?
If the Hauptmann has not already created one, there will be on in a couple of minutes. I hope you guys will forgive me for being scarce this weekend, but I've been basically running my whole business unit all week due to our team's other supervisor being on vacation and I was beat by the time it was all over. :-\
Well, now for the big (for me at least) aerospace battle over Erod's Escape. If anyone is willing to give me a refresher class on how to run things with the new Strategic Operations/Tactical Operations and MM combo together, that would be great - I have an advantage initially: 58.5 FP vs 40 FP (I'd roll on the 1 to 1 and they'd have to roll on the outnumbered 2 to 1 if it went that far), but then I have to deal with suicidal clanners trying to land and doing loads of damage. Which I will have to be doing anyway, even if I win, but still.... ;D
Hm. Not sure on the rolling charts. So far, if it wasnt a definite number then they would roll on the same column as you. Thus it was handled that far to my knowledge.
*begins laughing*
Well, I guess I should have pointed it out then once before. My bad and loss. Even if it IS exactly against the description for how the charts get used otherwise. ;D
*le sigh*
Hi guys, just a friendly reminder that Turn 39 is "technically" over midnight tonight. I am going to extend the turn till the end of the month, so don't worry yet about getting "cut off", but please try and wrap things up as much as possible. Re: the threads in the homeworlds that need responses from the monkeys etc, I will try and get those updated tonight.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on May 25, 2010, 06:05:53 PM
Hi guys, just a friendly reminder that Turn 39 is "technically" over midnight tonight. I am going to extend the turn till the end of the month, so don't worry yet about getting "cut off", but please try and wrap things up as much as possible. Re: the threads in the homeworlds that need responses from the monkeys etc, I will try and get those updated tonight.
And Cobras?
Hello all. I am just posting this to let you all know what Dave already knows. Due to me discovering Fallout 3, and the fact that I have to help a friend put a new roof on his house this weekend and then put new windows in my house the following weekend, I will not be around much the next two weeks. I will continue to get updates from Dave.
-Josh
Just a FYI, I will be in Shreveport, LA this weekend with my girlfriend and son, so my online time will be limited. I will be back Tuesday evening.
Quote from: silentwarrior on May 29, 2010, 05:12:27 PM
The Wolves also lay claim on the Monsoon, because of the worth of the hulk we should solve this in clan fashion: lets have a trial for possession.
+1 for RPin' it like a Clanner.
Question for Erewhon were the TH made Blockade running: The other Planets there is Offensive interdiction, not in this case? Anyway, also I read the rules now again, I really thought it was 1d6+5 % so far. :P Not times 5%. Urgs. So Blockade is worth a bit. :)
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361 (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361)
This should create some discussion in the SL council.
Quote from: silentwarrior on May 29, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361 (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361)
This should create some discussion in the SL council.
Not really since its in the DC IC thread, meaning it only reaches DC units.
So the DCMS assuming operational command of the SLDF has no way of reaching the other contributing members of the SLDF? Explain that one to me, plz.
You even understood it? I thought it was a hacker having a joke... ;D
Quote from: tassa_kay on May 29, 2010, 10:12:02 PM
So the DCMS assuming operational command of the SLDF has no way of reaching the other contributing members of the SLDF? Explain that one to me, plz.
DC units under SLDF command? You know seconded units? Yeah those.
Quote from: Holt on May 29, 2010, 10:19:18 PM
DC units under SLDF command? You know seconded units? Yeah those.
Alright, but the wording of that was incredibly fishy. Obviously, I wasn't the only one who came to that conclusion, either.
Quote from: Holt on May 29, 2010, 10:01:21 PM
Quote from: silentwarrior on May 29, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361 (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361)
This should create some discussion in the SL council.
Not really since its in the DC IC thread, meaning it only reaches DC units.
I think SLDF High command will notice and this is most probably a multinational staff, so the member states will know this soon.
Quote from: silentwarrior on May 30, 2010, 01:28:16 AM
Quote from: Holt on May 29, 2010, 10:01:21 PM
Quote from: silentwarrior on May 29, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361 (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=197.msg4361#msg4361)
This should create some discussion in the SL council.
Not really since its in the DC IC thread, meaning it only reaches DC units.
I think SLDF High command will notice and this is most probably a multinational staff, so the member states will know this soon.
Quote>>>SLDF HIGH COMMAND
The SLDF does know. This is for DC seconded units, hence being in the DC IC Thread. It does not effect anyone else in this game but those units. What other member states learn or not really has no bearing here.
Since it is the DC IC Thread whatever i write there only pertains to the DC, so writing military units; it only means DC units.
I really dont see why this is being dissected to the nth degree.
Just to clarify so there is no misunderstanding: the SLDF has historically maintained a policy of not sharing any operational data with its member states - Victor demanded solitary and total control of the SLDF and deliberately kept the Star League Council in the dark about the details of SLDF operations to further this. Assuming that SLDF HQ is continuing to follow Victor's information control directives, it is actually quite possible that the Star League Council would not immediately learn of the Combine pullout unless the Coordinator says something about it in the Star League Council.
Well, it's been what five years? Now, I have to say good bye.
Basically, it's been a bit longer since I was around back in the 3067 and 3048 games as well. It feels like I'm an old man when I write it up like that, but I'm still young with many years in front of me. However, I have to leave the Suns for a white robe and horrible die that thrust for blood. In a lot of ways, I hoped to keep the legacy going here for the Suns, but I just have to concentrate on the robe and HPGs.
So, I entrust the Suns to Fatebringer. Hopefully, he doesn't scatter the people of the Suns to the four winds. Scuttle the warships. Ruin Avalon. And he better not dent Hanse's Battlemaster. That thing is a classic. And I better not discover the Ravens breaking wind in Castle Davion. That would be upsetting. ;)
So Chaosextreme and Dave, if you want to post those stories that we wrote. Go ahead.
But I'll see you all in the past.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on June 01, 2010, 03:35:14 AM
Well, it's been what five years? Now, I have to say good bye.
Basically, it's been a bit longer since I was around back in the 3067 and 3048 games as well. It feels like I'm an old man when I write it up like that, but I'm still young with many years in front of me. However, I have to leave the Suns for a white robe and horrible die that thrust for blood. In a lot of ways, I hoped to keep the legacy going here for the Suns, but I just have to concentrate on the robe and HPGs.
So, I entrust the Suns to Fatebringer. Hopefully, he doesn't scatter the people of the Suns to the four winds. Scuttle the warships. Ruin Avalon. And he better not dent Hanse's Battlemaster. That thing is a classic. And I better not discover the Ravens breaking wind in Castle Davion. That would be upsetting. ;)
So Chaosextreme and Dave, if you want to post those stories that we wrote. Go ahead.
But I'll see you all in the past.
Good luck running 3010, Harlock... we're going to miss your excellent roleplaying, but I totally understand the need to take advantage of a fantastic opportunity like the one you were presented with :)
Drat, here I was going to have Hjort ask if we could trade the timely aid of a surprise task force in the area for a few more ex-Taurian worlds... :P
Oh wait, that isn't on your list! ;D
See you!
*Fully expects to see him return. He IS a Feddie. ;)*
Hi guys, just FYI, simple rez will commence in 8-10 hours.
I did not look forward to that, man. I really loved to read the fear of your Avalon people before the Dark.
:) I know, not what you want to hear, but I cannot help it.
Perhaps you can delegate much of your 3010 stuff to your first circuit to come back? ;D
Anyway, good luck.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on June 01, 2010, 03:35:14 AM
Well, it's been what five years? Now, I have to say good bye.
Basically, it's been a bit longer since I was around back in the 3067 and 3048 games as well. It feels like I'm an old man when I write it up like that, but I'm still young with many years in front of me. However, I have to leave the Suns for a white robe and horrible die that thrust for blood. In a lot of ways, I hoped to keep the legacy going here for the Suns, but I just have to concentrate on the robe and HPGs.
So, I entrust the Suns to Fatebringer. Hopefully, he doesn't scatter the people of the Suns to the four winds. Scuttle the warships. Ruin Avalon. And he better not dent Hanse's Battlemaster. That thing is a classic. And I better not discover the Ravens breaking wind in Castle Davion. That would be upsetting. ;)
So Chaosextreme and Dave, if you want to post those stories that we wrote. Go ahead.
But I'll see you all in the past.
There's an old myth IIRC that had bovines (cow and bulls) eating the dark before the invention of fire, and it changed their eyes or something, but I can't seem to find it. Anyone have even a guess what (as in what the origin is of the myth) I am talking about? I just can't remember the details. ???
Of course, IIRC the myth didn't end well for the bovines - they were betrayed by the creature known as man, and then replaced by fire... :P
Plus we all know what happened after man then put 1 and 1 together... Burger King. ;D
NVA -- glad to see the Reverend back in the THAC. It wouldn't be any fun if there were only hawks in the council :)
Danke...
Simple Rez is almost wrapped up, Josh should be finishing up the few outstanding threads tomorrow morning.
Don't forget to vote in the THAC polls ;-)
Speaking in THAC, I believe only like 6 people laid claims in the THAC thread, so there are plenty of systems open to those who wish to stake a claim and participate in the politicing that decides the TH's policy objectives.
Who'se handling the SLDF?
Quote from: Fatebringer on June 02, 2010, 04:35:50 PM
Who'se handling the SLDF?
Gio, as the First Lord's player, is the SLDF leader but since he has been extraordinarily busy with work lately your best bet is probably to talk to Parmenion who as far as I know is still the #2 guy in the SLDF.
Something from Erewon, that might easily be overlooked, but most would probably be interested in:
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=126.msg4601#msg4601
The list keeps a growing.
Quote from: DisGruntled on June 03, 2010, 01:35:11 AM
Something from Erewon, that might easily be overlooked, but most would probably be interested in:
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=126.msg4601#msg4601
The list keeps a growing.
well, looks like Amanda Ngo is now officially orphaned.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 03, 2010, 08:08:21 AM
well, looks like Amanda Ngo is now officially orphaned.
Clan Star Adder has some very good orphanages/schools...and we keep adding more ;)
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=358.msg4689#msg4689
Just and FYI
Quote from: LittleH13 on June 03, 2010, 01:48:50 PM
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=358.msg4689#msg4689
Just and FYI
Should we add a new column to the military orders worksheet and if so where? (so it's all in the same place)
I know I have some of the older maps on my pc at home. I'll take a look and let you know what all I have.
Quote from: GraeGor on June 03, 2010, 08:25:46 AM
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 03, 2010, 08:08:21 AM
well, looks like Amanda Ngo is now officially orphaned.
Clan Star Adder has some very good orphanages/schools...and we keep adding more ;)
Plus, we've already got some Steiners and Centrellas in the system so she'd be in fine company.
Quote from: DisGruntled on June 03, 2010, 02:08:27 PM
Plus, we've already got some Steiners and Centrellas in the system so she'd be in fine company.
oooo....that's right....I had totally spaced that character....hehehehehe
Quote from: GraeGor on June 03, 2010, 08:25:46 AM
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 03, 2010, 08:08:21 AM
well, looks like Amanda Ngo is now officially orphaned.
Clan Star Adder has some very good orphanages/schools...and we keep adding more ;)
Just remember who the babysitters are-they worked for 'mom's' side of the family.
Of course, it's twenty years or more before Amanda can actually DO anything-she's only a few months old...
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 03, 2010, 06:18:32 PM
Just remember who the babysitters are-they worked for 'mom's' side of the family.
Stan actually likes "mom's" side of the family...it was dad he
has had issues with
QuoteOf course, it's twenty years or more before Amanda can actually DO anything-she's only a few months old...
that's ok, and actually works better for the Adders mentality
Well, at 8 months my son oversaw the absorbtion of the Cobras, so perhaps its not so long to wait after all...
Well before I totally log out for awhile, I'd just like to point out that Michaelson Heavy Industries is troubled by the problems of its chief rival in the heavy industries market. And if I was still running the Suns, it would offer a nice price to buy all of Ngo's assets to move it to a better spot in the Inner Sphere say somewhere in the Suns near the Terran Hegemony. Hell, they would even take Amanda Ngo to raise her in the collective ways of Michaelson Heavy Industries.
Not sure how to handle this issue.
The CoPS structure has some "standing" orders, but to decide to do anything new, we have to have a majority. Unfortunately we have OOC issues hitting IC roleplay.
So far as I know, there is no Niops player, and the OA is being lead by Par, who would then be in the awkward position of playing on both sides of a war - not a slam on Par, just saying it would be awkward to do, as what Par views as IC reasoning may not match what others view as what would be reasonable IC. Toss in a missing factory and we have loads of fun there.
Would it be fair to ask for GM assistance as a neutral party (esp. as Niops, as they are still a small nation)? Give up until we get more players? Hope that someone triggers one of the standing orders and allows the CoPS structure to lurch into motion again?
Suggestions would be great!
---------
Other issue: what is the rule for the amount to be sent to the SL for "membership fees"? ;D
Hello all. I come with yet another new version of the turn 40 map. Please remember that this is a work in progress and we will be making more beneficial changes to the overall map. This should be good for us to move forward with the turn. If you have any corrections to the map please remember to post them in the appropriate thread and to be very clear about the who, what, and where of the correction.
http://www.intelser.org/Hauptmann/FGCMaps
PS- Long time players........I still need maps from turn 27 back to turn 1. You have all my contact info. I look forward to hearing from you.
-Josh
Quote from: Jeyar on June 04, 2010, 04:50:35 AM
Not sure how to handle this issue.
The CoPS structure has some "standing" orders, but to decide to do anything new, we have to have a majority. Unfortunately we have OOC issues hitting IC roleplay.
So far as I know, there is no Niops player, and the OA is being lead by Par, who would then be in the awkward position of playing on both sides of a war - not a slam on Par, just saying it would be awkward to do, as what Par views as IC reasoning may not match what others view as what would be reasonable IC. Toss in a missing factory and we have loads of fun there.
Would it be fair to ask for GM assistance as a neutral party (esp. as Niops, as they are still a small nation)? Give up until we get more players? Hope that someone triggers one of the standing orders and allows the CoPS structure to lurch into motion again?
Suggestions would be great!
This is really a roleplaying issue for you guys to work out. If you collectively don't trust the OWA and don't want Parmenion's characters to be in the decision making process, then act accordingly and then deal with whatever IC consequences come from it. Parmenion certainly isn't the only player on both sides of the war (I direct you to your Randis play, for one, and I feel obliged to point out that at one point the ilKhan was being played by a COPS member), and indeed FGC has historically always allowed players to run both Clan and IS factions concurrently.
Shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss this further, but this really seems like a matter that needs to be worked out internally within the COPS.
---------
Other issue: what is the rule for the amount to be sent to the SL for "membership fees"? ;D
There are no rules. Contributing (or not contributing) is a roleplaying decision. Of course, if an SL member chose to withhold dues, they would have to deal with the in-character consequences I presume.
Thank you to all players that have sent me Old FGC maps. We now have back to turn 20. We also have turns 16,14,11 and 8. If anyone can fill in the holes that would be appreciated.
-Josh
This is really a roleplaying issue for you guys to work out.
That then is the suggestion. Probably a good one. I probably should leave things at that. Not going to.
If you collectively don't trust the OWA and don't want Parmenion's characters to be in the decision making process, then act accordingly and then deal with whatever IC consequences come from it.
Trying to make it so Par wasn't going to have to WORRY about it at all, by generating an IC workaround to an OOC situation. Which BTW - to state again - also involves Niops which has NO players. Now I've had to do these things (IC workarounds) plenty of times in the past, when GM's make rule changes on the fly and I have to make up a reason for prior actions, but this time it is a case of lack of players, either from not existing, or trying to not have them in an uncomfortable position.
Parmenion certainly isn't the only player on both sides of the war (I direct you to your Randis play, for one, and I feel obliged to point out that at one point the ilKhan was being played by a COPS member), and indeed FGC has historically always allowed players to run both Clan and IS factions concurrently.
Randis play? I can DEFINITELY say I have no sure idea what you are talking about. If you are talking about the early game situation where I had to get FoR defined to some degree (allies, neutral party or even potentially take them over) in order to get to the TD, then that could have been quickly handled thousands of ways by the GMs, instead every... little... step... had... to... be... drawn... out... for... turns... before... they... dropped... a... dumb... harsh... rule... made... up... for... the... TC... special - all of one turn before the FS took the TD. Yeah! Since this shades MY reputation, both at a critical juncture, publicly AND reinforces Parm's old insinuations/accusations/declarations (don't want to quibble wording) from the old NCR issue – in spite of the old agreements and TC forces being shot and it being a GM's accidental, but long, long running series of mistakes that allowed the situation to get so big - and admitted to it after, I definitely want a PM on this puppy. Shoot, I am still waiting on the PM on my last set of clarifications.
However regarding the issue at hand, this isn't LIKE the standard IS + Clan situation, for one thing we are talking about 2 IS nations that are directly at war. For another we are talking about a straight up vote – no circle of equals or any of that – so it would be an added burden on Parm to show the reasoning behind a vote in order to NOT seem like anything funny is going on. Maybe people don't get my perspective here – when there is a path for a potential conflict of interest – it makes things harder for the person in that situation even if they don't/can't step down. Yes, this assumes innocence, but that is easy to do beforehand, and HARD after you've been shot down a few times. Want a way to bypass the entire situation that makes sense IC.
Shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss this further, but this really seems like a matter that needs to be worked out internally within the COPS.
So, that is the general suggestion from the start. Probably a good one, but misses entirely the whole issue of Niops having no player (internal from a void?) and the intent of not wanting to put a player in another awkward situation.
There are no rules. Contributing (or not contributing) is a roleplaying decision. Of course, if an SL member chose to withhold dues, they would have to deal with the in-character consequences I presume.
I suppose I am asking if anyone remembers what the "rules" are for GENERATING those dues, and can link them, that way I can make sure I am following them. So no one can 3 turns down the road accuse me of not following them...
I think Dave ment to say "Look at your Randis Player" who for years has done his best to work both sides of the fence. Personaly, I would respond that while I did and have done my best to be objective when fighting wars with myself, the process had been made a lot easier by the great groups of people I've had with me in most every faction I've run, so I've hardly had to go it alone.
As to the OA, having been OA I've got some inside knolage so I can't say more as to the ICness of what's going on.
Jeyar... I think the 6th June will sort this out for you.
cheers
Quote from: Jeyar on June 04, 2010, 02:32:27 PM
This is really a roleplaying issue for you guys to work out.
That then is the suggestion. Probably a good one. I probably should leave things at that. Not going to.
If you collectively don't trust the OWA and don't want Parmenion's characters to be in the decision making process, then act accordingly and then deal with whatever IC consequences come from it.
Trying to make it so Par wasn't going to have to WORRY about it at all, by generating an IC workaround to an OOC situation. Which BTW - to state again - also involves Niops which has NO players. Now I've had to do these things (IC workarounds) plenty of times in the past, when GM's make rule changes on the fly and I have to make up a reason for prior actions, but this time it is a case of lack of players, either from not existing, or trying to not have them in an uncomfortable position.
Parmenion certainly isn't the only player on both sides of the war (I direct you to your Randis play, for one, and I feel obliged to point out that at one point the ilKhan was being played by a COPS member), and indeed FGC has historically always allowed players to run both Clan and IS factions concurrently.
Randis play? I can DEFINITELY say I have no sure idea what you are talking about. If you are talking about the early game situation where I had to get FoR defined to some degree (allies, neutral party or even potentially take them over) in order to get to the TD, then that could have been quickly handled thousands of ways by the GMs, instead every... little... step... had... to... be... drawn... out... for... turns... before... they... dropped... a... dumb... harsh... rule... made... up... for... the... TC... special - all of one turn before the FS took the TD. Yeah! Since this shades MY reputation, both at a critical juncture, publicly AND reinforces Parm's old insinuations/accusations/declarations (don't want to quibble wording) from the old NCR issue – in spite of the old agreements and TC forces being shot and it being a GM's accidental, but long, long running series of mistakes that allowed the situation to get so big - and admitted to it after, I definitely want a PM on this puppy. Shoot, I am still waiting on the PM on my last set of clarifications.
However regarding the issue at hand, this isn't LIKE the standard IS + Clan situation, for one thing we are talking about 2 IS nations that are directly at war. For another we are talking about a straight up vote – no circle of equals or any of that – so it would be an added burden on Parm to show the reasoning behind a vote in order to NOT seem like anything funny is going on. Maybe people don't get my perspective here – when there is a path for a potential conflict of interest – it makes things harder for the person in that situation even if they don't/can't step down. Yes, this assumes innocence, but that is easy to do beforehand, and HARD after you've been shot down a few times. Want a way to bypass the entire situation that makes sense IC.
Shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss this further, but this really seems like a matter that needs to be worked out internally within the COPS.
So, that is the general suggestion from the start. Probably a good one, but misses entirely the whole issue of Niops having no player (internal from a void?) and the intent of not wanting to put a player in another awkward situation.
There are no rules. Contributing (or not contributing) is a roleplaying decision. Of course, if an SL member chose to withhold dues, they would have to deal with the in-character consequences I presume.
I suppose I am asking if anyone remembers what the "rules" are for GENERATING those dues, and can link them, that way I can make sure I am following them. So no one can 3 turns down the road accuse me of not following them...
Quote from: Parmenion on June 04, 2010, 03:31:11 PM
Jeyar... I think the 6th June will sort this out for you.
cheers
+1 for Sixth of June
...and yeah, I meant play
er. I was just typing too fast for my own good LOL
QuoteI suppose I am asking if anyone remembers what the "rules" are for GENERATING those dues, and can link them, that way I can make sure I am following them. So no one can 3 turns down the road accuse me of not following them...
Star League Accords:
QuoteARTICLE III: MEMBERSHIP
Membership is voluntary. A member state may resign its membership at any time, provided they give 120 days notice. Failure to give the proper notice will result in that member being considered an enemy of the Star League.
All Realms choosing to establish the Star League by signing this document are immediately considered member states of the Star League. Future members must petition the High Council for inclusion in the Star League. Petitions may be approved by the High Council by a 2/3 majority and ratified by the First Lord. Should the First Lord veto a Membership Petition, the High Council can overrule him by a 3/4 majority vote.
All members are expected to adhere to the following terms.
A. Contribution of 5% member state's GDP to Star League.
B. No attack on other Member States shall be conducted by a Member State with forces larger than a force equivalent to two companies of medium BattleMechs of a technology base consistent with both the pre-Exodus SLDF and modern, domestically-produced Inner Sphere technology, without first attempting arbitration via the High Council. Any attack by forces of a size equivalent to or smaller between Member States may be conducted under the Zellbringen Rules of Engagement and Trial System adopted by the Clans, in an effort to minimize unnecessary bloodshed. Under these Rules of Engagement, the defending party has the option to refuse said Trial.
C. Attacks by Member States against civilians, civilian infrastructure, multi-use (ie. both military and civilian) infrastructure, and the practice of taking Bondsmen, under any circumstances, is expressly prohibited, as these practices are contrary to the ethical principles espoused by the Star League and its members.
D. Pursuant to Sub-Article C, the Star League Member States shall adopt the original Ares Conventions1, as ratified on June 13, 2412, with the additional prohibitions stated in Sub-Article C.
E. Conflicts between members and non-members are not covered here, but it is strongly suggested the High Council be consulted as a possible mediator to prevent warfare.
So *no one* has anything to say about the call for the Scorpions' Annihilation? The Adders ignored it completely to crow about Jamie Wolf's death, and the Hellions just "listen in" at the GC and fail to yap about it? Wow. Either everyone's waiting to see if they can manipulate their orders sheet to take advantage of the (admittedly early) call to Annihilate, or they're just playing things way out-of-character. Either way, -1 for all parties involved. Not the Clan way, kids.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 04, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
So *no one* has anything to say about the call for the Scorpions' Annihilation? The Adders ignored it completely to crow about Jamie Wolf's death, and the Hellions just "listen in" at the GC and fail to yap about it? Wow. Either everyone's waiting to see if they can manipulate their orders sheet to take advantage of the (admittedly early) call to Annihilate, or they're just playing things way out-of-character. Either way, -1 for all parties involved. Not the Clan way, kids.
I am waiting for the actual turn to start, time for me is taken up by finishing the orders.
You have an actual excuse, though, Holt, given that you have to get GM approval for anything major... and if this isn't major, I don't know WHAT is.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 04, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
So *no one* has anything to say about the call for the Scorpions' Annihilation? The Adders ignored it completely to crow about Jamie Wolf's death, and the Hellions just "listen in" at the GC and fail to yap about it? Wow. Either everyone's waiting to see if they can manipulate their orders sheet to take advantage of the (admittedly early) call to Annihilate, or they're just playing things way out-of-character. Either way, -1 for all parties involved. Not the Clan way, kids.
Ive been distracted, some things are easier for my mind to twist than others, and hoping inspiration will hit...I dislike forcing my brain to develop game related postings as for me it reads/feels wrong for whichever character Im channeling at the time
I'm swamped, I've got a few things in terms of RP I need to hit because of some OOC insights I have, or two wrap up from last turn, or something else. Its on the list, but I don't know that its as pressing as other things. Yes, its major. But the GC moves slowly. There's time.
@ Iron Mongoose and Dave Baughman - thank goodness it was that. I am VERY sensitive about accusations (or whatever wording) that are sent my way due to that early NCR "situation" - in spite of having notes and stuff that people seemed unable to read/pay attention to/acknowledge. Totally ticks me off to this day.
@ silentwarrior – Thank you! I didn't notice that one line, I actually did have that copied for review and thought I had looked it over. (Failed it seems) I think it was because it was one line I missed it, but in any case thank you. I thought that it was the case (5%), but couldn't be sure...
@ Parmenion – if you want to step into the CoPS meeting you are welcome to. Please be aware that there IS concern on the OA's yanking of a factory, not saying where the force that was supposed to cover FoR went – the TC was stuck sort of an extra turn (or 2 – if you toss in the small distance the TC went due to not having access to the OA's MP) there waiting plus other things like that. Shoot - even then I felt guilty leaving the FoR behind with such a small force covering them. I don't want you to feel dumped on, but if you have someone show, those are all things of concern that IC really should be brought up.
On the other hand, if that is a threat – well, my guess was that you've built up with aid a fairly good sized force and will likely wipe out the CoPS and TC forces in the area (even PM's sent to that effect). I've had that impression for a while, but didn't PUSH anyone as I've been instead hoping more players would join – freeing up the possibility of creating a larger and more powerful buffer state that would finally be obvious to everyone was being wiped out by the MoC once you went hunting. Obviously my hope failed – not only for the Fronc Protectorate (or whatever name), but even for a full time Niops and OA player.
Not a slam, but you are obviously far more charismatic than me, and I like keeping as much distance from anything you touch that you might feel should be yours as possible – esp if anyone else can be convinced to interact in the situation. On the flips side, I don't like to put people in a social situation I would be uncomfortable (one could almost say "set up"), but if you want to, it is of course up to you.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 04, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
So *no one* has anything to say about the call for the Scorpions' Annihilation? The Adders ignored it completely to crow about Jamie Wolf's death, and the Hellions just "listen in" at the GC and fail to yap about it? Wow. Either everyone's waiting to see if they can manipulate their orders sheet to take advantage of the (admittedly early) call to Annihilate, or they're just playing things way out-of-character. Either way, -1 for all parties involved. Not the Clan way, kids.
Ya know Tassa, if you actually thought there was an issue, you could have just sent a PM asking what was up. But instead, you come into the public and make an accusation that I and others are meta-gaming. Nice. Either that, or one more time I have someone telling me how to run my faction. Again, I say nice.
Like Holt, I am waiting for the turn to fully start, and I am also swamped with real life. But just let me drop everything to serve Lord Tassa, anything else your majesty?
Whoa there, Kemo Sabe. Admittedly, I could've worded it a little better, and for THAT I apologize. And real life should always take priority, obviously, so if you feel slighted by that, my bad. But it's funny to me how almost everyone had plenty to say when Marlin organized his little PM roundtable discussion on this very same topic... and yet, when it's put into a public forum, no one can be bothered with it. Don't like my opinion on the matter? Too bad. I stand firmly behind it.
As a member of the audience, I'd be fascinated to learn (having been gone for several turns) why the Scorpions are under threat of Annihilation instead of, say, the more Clan-like practice of Abjuration/Absorption?
Conspiring with lower castes(scientists) to steal warriors genetic legacies.
Possibly the source and actual user of the nukes that were used against the Steel Vipers.
Allegedly different clans have different levels of intelligence and belief in that intel.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 04, 2010, 08:20:04 PM
Conspiring with lower castes(scientists) to steal warriors genetic legacies.
Including successful theft of Nicholas Kerensky's original basekube giftake.
Possibly the source and actual user of the nukes that were used against the Steel Vipers.
Allegedly different clans have different levels of intelligence and belief in that intel.
Before I continue more in the CPS Meeting, I want to make sure the information I have is correct. It seems we may be on different pages and I just want to make sure I am on the same page as my faction leader.
Well, my info has that in 2 turns the "asset" will be complete: don't forget that even if we don't change ANY of the rules, the next turn is a free tech roll, so no money being sent. So that means things move 2 "turns" faster than normal (or early).
It also has the Carausius at 4 FP, but with a maximum of 28.5. Since the cost of a warship unit is at least 6 x the FP, that means it would in theory be worth 171. However if it has a LFB (which I just noticed it may) that would actually be worth 285 at a max (also assuming I understand the rules). However once it is built, the cost of repair is straight FP rebuild. which means for a cost of 24.5 you get a unit that would cost the TC over a year to build. Of course, that is assuming I'm also reading the rules and the sheet I have correctly.
Not sure what else there is to look at.
Jeyar...This is something that is best hashed out through PM by the CPS players. Just remember to copy Dave and I on all of it.
Quote from: Jeyar on June 05, 2010, 01:48:49 AM
Well, my info has that in 2 turns the "asset" will be complete: don't forget that even if we don't change ANY of the rules, the next turn is a free tech roll, so no money being sent. So that means things move 2 "turns" faster than normal (or early).
It also has the Carausius at 4 FP, but with a maximum of 28.5. Since the cost of a warship unit is at least 6 x the FP, that means it would in theory be worth 171. However if it has a LFB (which I just noticed it may) that would actually be worth 285 at a max (also assuming I understand the rules). However once it is built, the cost of repair is straight FP rebuild. which means for a cost of 24.5 you get a unit that would cost the TC over a year to build. Of course, that is assuming I'm also reading the rules and the sheet I have correctly.
Not sure what else there is to look at.
I owe some information to my fellow players. PM in the works.
PM sent. Maybe this will clarify some things.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 04, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
So *no one* has anything to say about the call for the Scorpions' Annihilation? The Adders ignored it completely to crow about Jamie Wolf's death, and the Hellions just "listen in" at the GC and fail to yap about it? Wow. Either everyone's waiting to see if they can manipulate their orders sheet to take advantage of the (admittedly early) call to Annihilate, or they're just playing things way out-of-character. Either way, -1 for all parties involved. Not the Clan way, kids.
Haven't read it... been far too busy doing orders and RL stuff (makes note to onceself to check what this is all about)
a. I've no idea about any OWA force that was supposed to cover the FoR. I cannot recall anything on the orders sheet in regards that requirement.
b. I was hoping Hugin would be a little more active to field some questions, but with his move, I'm having to wait. Hopefully he will be back to his usual self shortly.
c. I'm just wrapping up a couple of things in regards the OWA as ordained by the previous player(s), before pushing on.
d. the Magistracy has not received any 'aid'. Be it from other factions or ponzi RP from GM mates. We have paid RP for all our purchases. And while it would be mana from heaven to steamroll the CPS (note I did not say TC or MH) flat, until I receive the Magistracy's allocation of 1000RP from the GMs, than that won't happen.
e. not really sure where you are going with your last (scratches head)
Quote from: Jeyar on June 04, 2010, 07:13:47 PM
@ Iron Mongoose and Dave Baughman - thank goodness it was that. I am VERY sensitive about accusations (or whatever wording) that are sent my way due to that early NCR "situation" - in spite of having notes and stuff that people seemed unable to read/pay attention to/acknowledge. Totally ticks me off to this day.
@ silentwarrior – Thank you! I didn't notice that one line, I actually did have that copied for review and thought I had looked it over. (Failed it seems) I think it was because it was one line I missed it, but in any case thank you. I thought that it was the case (5%), but couldn't be sure...
@ Parmenion – if you want to step into the CoPS meeting you are welcome to. Please be aware that there IS concern on the OA's yanking of a factory, not saying where the force that was supposed to cover FoR went – the TC was stuck sort of an extra turn (or 2 – if you toss in the small distance the TC went due to not having access to the OA's MP) there waiting plus other things like that. Shoot - even then I felt guilty leaving the FoR behind with such a small force covering them. I don't want you to feel dumped on, but if you have someone show, those are all things of concern that IC really should be brought up.
On the other hand, if that is a threat – well, my guess was that you've built up with aid a fairly good sized force and will likely wipe out the CoPS and TC forces in the area (even PM's sent to that effect). I've had that impression for a while, but didn't PUSH anyone as I've been instead hoping more players would join – freeing up the possibility of creating a larger and more powerful buffer state that would finally be obvious to everyone was being wiped out by the MoC once you went hunting. Obviously my hope failed – not only for the Fronc Protectorate (or whatever name), but even for a full time Niops and OA player.
Not a slam, but you are obviously far more charismatic than me, and I like keeping as much distance from anything you touch that you might feel should be yours as possible – esp if anyone else can be convinced to interact in the situation. On the flips side, I don't like to put people in a social situation I would be uncomfortable (one could almost say "set up"), but if you want to, it is of course up to you.
Parm, I know a very small bit about the OA from my time there, and I have a few old orders sheets from that era, so let me know if there's anything I can do for you in that regard (for example, the Randis loaned the OA 15 FP at one point during their economic colapse, and I've been trying to get a repayment plan set up for a while now, though we're not the only creditor).
I will likely not be on tomorrow, if I can manage it. :P
So, see you next week.
All orders sheets submitted to date have been downloaded and are being processed. Standby for your reports :)
Quote from: Dave Baughman on June 06, 2010, 07:51:52 PM
All orders sheets submitted to date have been downloaded and are being processed. Standby for your reports :)
done yet?
Reports have been sent out to everyone who:
A) Submitted Orders
and
B) Did either R&D or Intelligence Ops
A few folks haven't got their orders in yet, so we may want to give them till Monday to wrap up. Of course, anyone who wants to start their threads for this turn right now is also welcome to do so.
Hello all. This is just a friendly reminder to everyone. It helps when both Dave and myself are copied on PMs, if we are not it makes it difficult for either of us to keep continuity on things.
Just a reminder.
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=167.msg2107#msg2107
Argh - I must admit I thought that you both had access to the location that we sent orders into.
I do. I am just talking about PMs. Only PMs.
Quote from: Jeyar on June 07, 2010, 12:51:28 AM
Argh - I must admit I thought that you both had access to the location that we sent orders into.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on June 05, 2010, 06:05:16 PM
Parm, I know a very small bit about the OA from my time there, and I have a few old orders sheets from that era, so let me know if there's anything I can do for you in that regard (for example, the Randis loaned the OA 15 FP at one point during their economic colapse, and I've been trying to get a repayment plan set up for a while now, though we're not the only creditor).
Let me know the details, IM. As I certainly don't have anything like this notated on the orders sheets received.
cheers
Has the HW trial ban been officially lifted (or for that matter the IS one)? I don't think it has but I want to know for sure before I use that info.
I'm actually looking into that myself right now
Quote from: Holt on June 07, 2010, 07:14:58 PM
[OCC You will be surprised at the precedence of denying trials straight up.]
I don't know that anyone is supprised by Clan hipocracy these days. We know how we bend the rules which ever way we want. I think its just the Scorps bad fortune that they have too few friends to gain political cover, and potentaly too small a force to simply intimidate millitarily.
FYI, according to Jedi, the ban on Trials has never been offical rescinded, although he didnt seem to remember if it was Is only or not. Diana is going to follow the path that IS trials are banned, and trials on Strana Mechty are banned, but HW trials are still open, however still subject to Grand Council rulings.
as for the situation on Roche, i am unaware of simply refusing a ToP being a valid option, and anyways, the only persons aware of it are those involved and Diana, and she has no reason to bring it up to the Council, as the Spirits are playing by the rules in allowing the Scorps the chance to counterbid.
I wasn't here when the ban was enacted and don't know the extent of it.
All I really know is that there was such a ban and that the Ghost Bears have used it to deny Trials as recently as Turn 38. Dave will have to fill in the rest.
Well, at some point between my leaving the Mandrills and returning, we lost a number of hexes to other Clans, so this ban must be at least semi recent.
In turn 38 alone, the Hellions and Horses both challenged the Scorpions, and the Scorpions accepted both challenges, both of them taking place in the Homeworlds. Also, the Sharks have challenged the Adders this turn over Homer. If the ban is still in effect, these examples make a pretty substantial case against it... or a case against the Hellions, Horses, Sharks and Scorpions (by accepting Trials from CHH and CIH, they're just as complicit) for violating it first.
I know there was at one point a ban both in the IS and HWs. I think Little might have been the one who put it into place. I don't ever remember it being rescinded. There's always been people both ignoring it and respecting it.
Before I post something up at Homer I want to check and see if it's been rescinded or not. ie don't want to accuse the Sharks IC of being in violation of an edict if their not and being just greedy attacking their neighbors and not the TH as they've sworn (yes I know they just hit outpost ) ;D
Well taking a quick glance at the CBT board and Intelser, their has been a ToP for territory going all the way back to turn 34 from multiple factions, also IS ToPs.
*whew* Was worried about my forces I sent for a ToP for assistance against the Dark.
HOWEVER - I do have an odd question. If you look at the map - if the worlds of Csomad and Gronholt had fallen to the Dark, would all those non-control worlds have fallen to the Dark as well (like Malagrotta, Fetsund and Baranda)? I am to this day a little unclear how that sort of thing works. Thanks!
Quote from: Jeyar on June 07, 2010, 09:00:15 PM
HOWEVER - I do have an odd question. If you look at the map - if the worlds of Csomad and Gronholt had fallen to the Dark, would all those non-control worlds have fallen to the Dark as well (like Malagrotta, Fetsund and Baranda)? I am to this day a little unclear how that sort of thing works. Thanks!
I had the same situation happen to me, actually. And the answer is yes: the member worlds would fall if the control worlds do.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 07, 2010, 09:01:11 PM
I had the same situation happen to me, actually. And the answer is yes: the member worlds would fall if the control worlds do.
How far "out" does that state exist? Midpoint (probably round down) to the next control world of the power that initially had those worlds?
Quote from: Jeyar on June 07, 2010, 09:12:51 PM
How far "out" does that state exist? Midpoint (probably round down) to the next control world of the power that initially had those worlds?
Oh, no, I wasn't clear on this, not having consulted the map. This is based on hexes. Csomad fell, and it's in one hex. Malagrotta is in another hex entirely, and would have to be invaded separately. If they were in the same hex, then Malagrotta would fall if Csomad did. Make sense?
Yes, but Malagrotta is a world that cannot be invaded. How exactly does it fall?
Quote from: Jeyar on June 07, 2010, 09:19:40 PM
Yes, but Malagrotta is a world that cannot be invaded. How exactly does it fall?
How is it a word that "cannot be invaded"? I'm not sure what you mean by this. If the hex itself that it's in isn't invaded and taken, I don't see how it can fall, really. Makes no sense to me.
I thought that it was generally banned (except in specific cases) to attack worlds that weren't control worlds. The ONLY reason the TC got to attack the world Acme Station was that we thought it was the headquarters of some pirates that attacked us. We were wrong (it was a DIFFERENT band of pirates), but that was the reason we attacked it. True the TC thinks there is still a band of pirates headquartered somewhere around the TC - and there are only 3 reasonably possible worlds to do so: Freehold, Crow's Feast and Crossbones (McEvedy's Folly and Hooligan's Hideaway are outside chances due to the mystery attack on Niops), however we are more concerned about the Dark right now. Pirates typically don't go on orgies of Genocide. If only I had my abilities vs. pirates (and the Dark counted as pirates) as in the early part of the game. In any case, back on target: I thought only control worlds could be attacked?
Member worlds do not have any impact on game mechanics, in that they cannot support hex improvements and do no generate any RP. However, i do not remember there being a restriction that prevents a force from invading a member world: it just ususally doesnt serve a purpose, so i assume it is rarely done.
in the past Im sure everyone has expressed a interest in assorted member worlds at one time or another.
I can think of at least 2 that were brought up on the CBT boards from the Adders, and we were denied on both....though our interest has not waned.
Perhaps it is time to review that Rule for those worlds that are not part of any faction currently, provided the GMs have no plans for them in the foreseeable future
I know I got the answer that you could pass over a member-only hex as if it were empty back when I was with the OA, but it didn't speak to what becomes of controll of them directly (I think it was implied that they fell to the invader, but its not clear how). This is definatly a FS centric issue, as they are a nation with very many of these hexes (conversly, the FWL had two when the map was made, and as I recall I upgraded both, while most other nations also have only a small number).
So, how does one contest them? Does is make sense that the Dark can't take the three or four hexes that are right there? Would it make sense if they were simply awarded them for no action?
I would propose that if there is only one world in the hex, it be alowed to be contested as if it were a member world, while not providing any income, or possessing any free millita. So you can garision such a world if you want, but if you don't it can fall to any amount of force.
My wife is awesome. She made me chocolate covered strawberries! This has brightened my evening significantly :)
Please refrain from the OOC commentary in IC threads. That is what this thread is for.
-Josh
Oops - I just barely put an OOC post down in one of them. However it was for a good cause, it was so people knew that Grover was in shock and know that they didn't have to wait for my posting... *puppy dog eyes*
Drat, I've forgotten just who was in the Star League now days. ;D
Need a bit of clarification. In the Force Points portion of the rules, which of the two IS subgroups would classify as Star League designs that can be produced for Clan factions? Or can the Clans still produce SL designs?
IS2 means higher-tech IS tech, so SL-era technology would be considered IS2 i should think. But you need an MF tooled for IS designs, meaning a single MF can't produce IS2 and Clantech battlemechs. And it costs a turn plus RPs to retool an MF. You can alternativly build an MF to produce IS2 tech from the beginning aswell.
Atleast thats my understanding.
Quote from: GreyJaeger on June 09, 2010, 05:20:14 AM
Need a bit of clarification. In the Force Points portion of the rules, which of the two IS subgroups would classify as Star League designs that can be produced for Clan factions? Or can the Clans still produce SL designs?
The IS tech groups are a holdover from the BattleTech Master Rules, which split the "tournament legal" rules tier into two distinct levels: Level 1 (introductory level rules only) and Level 2 (full tournament rules).
Intro-Level Technology units are limited to 'mechs and vehicles that can be build using only the introductory boxed set. This would include some old Star League regular army units like the CRD-3R Crusader for example, but not the newer machines like the THG-11E Thug or Royal variants like the MAD-1R Marauder.
Inner Sphere Standard technology units can contain any IS tech unit the originating faction uses. Most Clan "third line" units are probably in this category, since common Clan IS-tech 'mechs like the SNT-3L Sentinel or CRB-27 Crab fall into this technology group.
To answer the second question, the Clans probably are not building many IS-tech designs, but as far as Star League designs there are many, many examples of the more common designs in mothballs and caches. From a fluff point of view, a Clan faction "building" old Star League 'mechs is probably mainly activating and refurbishing old 'mechs from caches. Of course, there are exceptions - I know when I was running it the RD still produced some IS designs, including modern machines like their KRJ-1R
Krigsjarl - and I believe the WIE also produce some IS-tech machines.
This message is to all. If you have a comment to make about Randis please do so in here. We are trying to resolve the thread and since IM stated that his ASF was going to run (per this link http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=404.msg5073#msg5073 ) and suggested that the CPS forces do the same and now he is stating that he wants them to be on Def Interdiction both he and Jeyar need to make a decision. I am all for rolling over more of their FP if they want to stay :)
Anyway. Please do not clutter that thread with OOC comments.
-Josh
Fate? Are you ok :o I think that you may be mixing the games up in this thread :P http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=416.msg5338#msg5338
Well, to be frank, so long as the CoPS forces are being used to protect civilians in a halfway intelligent way (even if they get run over) then they will do so. If I could have made sure to have a MMaero game and if the Taurians had shown up, they also would have fought, but as it is, they don't really have anything close to a chance. As such I think that he's just trying to figure out the actual execution of the rules first, then make a decision that is best for the people.
Its the last day for posting combat, so I wanted to get my threads up. However, I'm still not clear on the nature of weather trials are permissable, so some or all of them may end up being called off, or having the target change. Either way, I'm done for the day, so expect batchals tomarrow or the next day.
From what i've been told, there was a lack of understanding about where the edict was based. So its shady wether or not it is in effect, I'm not going to make a descion either way untill its brought to Diana's attention that there is a possible breach. However, you still need to fight the Trial of Refusal against the Vipers: if you lose, you could find yourself in a bad spot if you are attacking other Clans for their territory, especially in the IS, with plenty of Lyran real estate around. Might anger some factions.
Well, the 10th deadline is not that harsh, I will have to wait for the Lyran's reactions too.
I think I got all my posts up :P some are pretty small and you'll have to look out for em ;)
Ouch - I got a smackdown from the FWL. Why didn't the Dracs get one? ;D
I wonder if we have to be more careful with dates in the future. Grover hasn't even left yet to go to the CoPS meeting and isn't even going to the vote - he sent another famous person of the Taurian Concordat's who's who list (which means probably unknown to anyone else) to vote per his instructions - the reasoning of a leader should be left to that leader to speak I'd think. On the other hand, a call for clarity should be everyone's duty. ;D
Edit: but really, just how many factions (and who) are part of the SL? There are the big 6, a doggie, a bull and a bubble - anyone else?
And ya'll wonder why we Clanners dont like the Successor Houses
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:28:08 PM
Ouch - I got a smackdown from the FWL. Why didn't the Dracs get one? ;D
I wonder if we have to be more careful with dates in the future. Grover hasn't even left yet to go to the CoPS meeting and isn't even going to the vote - he sent another famous person of the Taurian Concordat's who's who list (which means probably unknown to anyone else) to vote per his instructions - the reasoning of a leader should be left to that leader to speak I'd think. On the other hand, a call for clarity should be everyone's duty. ;D
Edit: but really, just how many factions (and who) are part of the SL? There are the big 6, a doggie, a bull and a bubble - anyone else?
Eh I just figured it was about time for one Great House to start treating the Periphery...like the periphery.
Great House's DON'T meet treat even the top 3 Periphery states like real states. Let alone NIOPS, Randis and well it doesn't exist but the Rim Collection since I like talking in three's.
And here we have someone from NIOPS as First Lord, The Davion's GIVING I mean GIVING worlds to the Taurians for their help. And the FWL isn't beyond reproach either. By sheer dint of military force maintaining the MoC as a state. For....no appreciable gain that I can see? They don't even have a vote in the SL to throw our way...and they were best buds with Victor Steiner-Davion who kidnapped and killed Thomas the fake's son....someone please explain to me why we didn't join the CPS beat down and then dictate who would get what? Or at least annex a couple of border systems in exchange for our 'help'? I mean Thomas Marik is the ghandi of successor lords but after 3057 he didn't go back to post war borders and say "well that taught you a lesson".
So from now on until our respect is earned (By respect aided us in a significant and lasting way like...saved us from invasion or helped us gain significant territory). Periphery states get treated as one of the following in FWL Role Play of any FWL charachter that has not lived in that state for a significant number of years.
- A curiosity.
- A junior partner that we humor.
- A jumped up pirate with delusions of nobility.
- A backwards peasant in needing of enlightenment (possibly at gun point while economically exploited).
- Some sort of animal that has managed to simulate civilization, walk up right and does a good approximation of statecraft. But still...just an animal.
Mind you none of these roll's are directed against any particular Periphery state...assure you we think of all of you that way. ;)
The Draconis Combine's treated differently because they have a Council Seat from the Origional Star League (Its very much a your Nouveau Riche and I'm Old Money type of bias). Among near equals (as the Captain-General is obviously the superior morally and otherwise to the other Council Lords) that sort of give and take is to be expected. There will of course be a measured response to gather the vote's to kill something near and dear to their hearts as well in the future.
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
we do, there are several Clan Academies in Adder Territory, so feel free to send any of your population that's interested in learning about the Clans and our culture our way...we'll even waive the enrollment and tuition costs ;)
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
we do, there are several Clan Academies in Adder Territory, so feel free to send any of your population that's interested in learning about the Clans and our culture our way...we'll even waive the enrollment and tuition costs ;)
Dispatch VINH and S.A.F.E. Dark Shadows personnel to Adder space. check!
It is now on my agenda. :-)
How about we meet at Tharkhad and split the difference? ;D
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 12:21:18 AM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
we do, there are several Clan Academies in Adder Territory, so feel free to send any of your population that's interested in learning about the Clans and our culture our way...we'll even waive the enrollment and tuition costs ;)
Dispatch VINH and S.A.F.E. Dark Shadows personnel to Adder space. check!
It is now on my agenda. :-)
I suppose I shoulda mentioned that those Academies are of the Military Variety and more like Clan Boot Camp...hehehe
You do realize that I had no idea what the thinking was back then either, I'm not saying anyone was OOC, I'm saying that I had no idea what anyone that voted for it was thinking.
Quote from: Jeyar on June 11, 2010, 12:35:18 AM
You do realize that I had no idea what the thinking was back then either, I'm not saying anyone was OOC, I'm saying that I had no idea what anyone that voted for it was thinking.
I'm not saying people were OOC.
I'm just saying until I'm given a reason. Periphery states do not equal = awe, equal, or respected opponent.
Weird curiousity? Sure.
Junior Partner? No problem.
I'm quite sure you and the other Periphery players will make sure it jumps up and bite's me before overly long. And I am fine with that. :-)
But since I have several active periphery powers on my border I am quite fine with diplomatic sniping, oneupsmanship and out and out political back stabbing.
Nor is there any need to be polite about it. :-)
No skin on my nose - I actually thought of having Janice (not the old lady you think is there) make a bunch of jokes about your comments, but while it would have funny, Janice is lighthearted in spite of being so focused (recovering from her disease and all).
Go for it please! I want to take some of the Grim Darkness out of the Star League. Think of the current FWL Ambassador as a Scotch-Hispanic Alan Shore from Boston Legal....you think he is giving the Star League fits...wait until he becomes Speaker and Thomas has to deal with him on a daily basis!
:-)
Janice she's the Calderon with the degenerative disease that is wheel chair bound right?
Not anymore - she's not only doing well, she's super buff - went slightly too far in the physical therapy if you know what I mean (looks a bit angular and rough). She also is having a kid via the Taurian's Bacta-tank knockoff of the Clan's Iron Womb, plus is now fully skilled at using BA and is surprisingly good at an oddball set of skills (sort of used the 2nd edition as a start, then converted to 3rd and advanced her a bit - no other character like her). But that goes to why I didn't post her being funny – she feels sorry for the guy and is a nice person.
Well, outside of the BA that is.
Well good for her I'm glad she overcame it. Though it does raise the question what Grover is doing in his position when there is a Calderon who is fit and able and capable of heir's is around.
"And the man's just having a bit of a go at the First Lord because it plays well with the folks back home. At least better then the overly polite Council Lord setting, given the adversarial inflammatory nature of the Free Worlds League Parliament. (We've had people called cowards, traitors and various other unprintable things on the floor of parliament."
Pity about the Joke's I was hoping to convince you to do the old "If I were your wife I would put arsenic in your tea" line.
So I could respond with "Madam if I were your husband I would drink it."
Well, to help you along with insults of the TC - we spent a pretty RP near the beginning to buy pretty much all the level 1 weapon systems/designs the FWL had (and IIRC one or 2 modern designs plus a JS and DS design). We weren't big fans (in this universe) of your level 2 designs.
However I don't think you know ALL what the TC picked up - but we didn't STEAL any (directly) from the FWL... Honest!
Can i just say that reading Chaos' SL Council posts was about as entertaining as watching a movie? I even had to make some popcorn it was so much fun. :) how come we dont have crazy Khans like that? Would make the Grand Council alot more interesting, so say the least.
"I call for a Trial of Grievance!"
"You can have your Trial, right after i get a Trial of Refusal, to refuse your right to speak!"
"You stravag!"
"Freebirth!"
"Surat!"
"Sucessor Lord!"
"Bandit!"
...would cause so many ToGs, we'd have to stall the invasion just to figure out who insulted whose honor more. a year's worth of trials, or maybe a new holovid TV show: Iron Khan: Homeworlds, "whose insults reign supreme!"
But you'd need to have a GOOD method of teaching IS folk the subtle details...
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 11, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
Can i just say that reading Chaos' SL Council posts was about as entertaining as watching a movie? I even had to make some popcorn it was so much fun. :) how come we dont have crazy Khans like that? Would make the Grand Council alot more interesting, so say the least.
We
do. They're just not as fun when
you have to manage them.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 11, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
Can i just say that reading Chaos' SL Council posts was about as entertaining as watching a movie? I even had to make some popcorn it was so much fun. :) how come we dont have crazy Khans like that? Would make the Grand Council alot more interesting, so say the least.
"I call for a Trial of Grievance!"
"You can have your Trial, right after i get a Trial of Refusal, to refuse your right to speak!"
"You stravag!"
"Freebirth!"
"Surat!"
"Sucessor Lord!"
"Bandit!"
...would cause so many ToGs, we'd have to stall the invasion just to figure out who insulted whose honor more. a year's worth of trials, or maybe a new holovid TV show: Iron Khan: Homeworlds, "whose insults reign supreme!"
Um, you very well could've had this, but instead, you listen to JediBear and just abuse your power instead of making the Grand Council fun. ;)
that doesnt deserve to be dignified with a response.
but
but
but
I thought whining like a little kid who dropped his ice cream cone before stomping off in a hissy fit was a Clansman's second favorite past time
Eh, I guess Clanners just aren't played like they used to be/should be. <shrug>
funny....Ive always been of the thought that they should try something new for a change
Well, personally speaking, if I just wanted to play a Spheroid politician, I'd go sign up as a Spheroid. ;) Not that there isn't a happy medium to be found, but it gets a bit on the ridiculous side more often than not.
Hmmm... ice cream... ;D
-------
That battle on Armington: is my math wrong, or could that Dark force be all of 18 elite Clan assault mechs defending the planet (or 21 elite Clan heavy)? :o
I'd be crazy to take this on simp-res with how the Dark are rolling right now, but I don't think it is quite as fun when I'd be going after them with like 120 heavy mechs and... well, 150+ of the model aerospace I took with my force. Break it up by a factor of 6 and we'd be looking at 3 Clan Assault Elite vs 20 Heavy IS Mech + 25 aero. Doesn't look very fun for whoever took the Dark Side.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 11, 2010, 05:47:12 AM
it gets a bit on the ridiculous side more often than not.
you really expected something different from politics :o
even my imagination isnt that good ;)
Now I know better than that. ;)
Quote from: chanman on June 11, 2010, 06:42:47 AM
"Tell them we have our Drac problems will in hand, but if they want to help us with our Adder problem by misjumping, we would be most appreciative."
LOL
+1 for that
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 12:21:18 AM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
we do, there are several Clan Academies in Adder Territory, so feel free to send any of your population that's interested in learning about the Clans and our culture our way...we'll even waive the enrollment and tuition costs ;)
Dispatch VINH and S.A.F.E. Dark Shadows personnel to Adder space. check!
It is now on my agenda. :-)
I suppose I shoulda mentioned that those Academies are of the Military Variety and more like Clan Boot Camp...hehehe
So your saying I can expect my Dark Shadows to eventually end up in your elite units and Keshiks?
Splendid. I LOVE having sleeper agent's in key places.
Quote from: DisGruntled on June 11, 2010, 12:23:55 AM
How about we meet at Tharkhad and split the difference? ;D
Better idea, we meet on Tharkad and the beer/fusionaires/and sparkling wine(if its not from Champagne in France its not Champagne..anymore weird) on the Free Worlds League.
Seriously OOC chanman and company are a great bunch. Inchar, their Lyran tyrants holding Free Worlds Citizens in bondage and eventually that must be addressed, by the sword if necessary. :-)
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 11, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
Can i just say that reading Chaos' SL Council posts was about as entertaining as watching a movie? I even had to make some popcorn it was so much fun. :) how come we dont have crazy Khans like that? Would make the Grand Council alot more interesting, so say the least.
"I call for a Trial of Grievance!"
"You can have your Trial, right after i get a Trial of Refusal, to refuse your right to speak!"
"You stravag!"
"Freebirth!"
"Surat!"
"Sucessor Lord!"
"Bandit!"
...would cause so many ToGs, we'd have to stall the invasion just to figure out who insulted whose honor more. a year's worth of trials, or maybe a new holovid TV show: Iron Khan: Homeworlds, "whose insults reign supreme!"
I thank you sir and Tassa.
I actually am working on something similar for the Grand Council once Roche is taken and the Gol Scorp gen repository is ours. It should be better as I essentially did the SL off the cusp and I have time to really channel Alan Shore for the Grand Council one (But as a Clanner would of course).
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 11:25:22 AM
So your saying I can expect my Dark Shadows to eventually end up in your elite units and Keshiks?
In an indirect sort of way, you've already got a Dark Shadow in the Adder's Elite units and Keshiks... 8)
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 12:21:18 AM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 11, 2010, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: Jeyar on June 10, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
You know, the clans should have a "Class for Innocent Spheroids" to teach about their culture.
(Instead of waiting until they are bondmen you may say)
we do, there are several Clan Academies in Adder Territory, so feel free to send any of your population that's interested in learning about the Clans and our culture our way...we'll even waive the enrollment and tuition costs ;)
Dispatch VINH and S.A.F.E. Dark Shadows personnel to Adder space. check!
It is now on my agenda. :-)
I suppose I shoulda mentioned that those Academies are of the Military Variety and more like Clan Boot Camp...hehehe
So your saying I can expect my Dark Shadows to eventually end up in your elite units and Keshiks?
Splendid. I LOVE having sleeper agent's in key places.
Only one small problem with that... I've got your guys and Mr Bean is the navigator.
Well, it is the FWL. Besides, he is professional enough not to talk, no matter how strenuiously he is interogated...
Star Adders, you might still want to wait with your battles until the Recon Raids are done.
Quote from: Marlin on June 11, 2010, 05:21:53 PM
Star Adders, you might still want to wait with your battles until the Recon Raids are done.
The result in at least ONE instance is the same regardless-something Horrible hit Jessenice after the LCAF regulars pulled out to try and fight the Clans. Something evil is moving in the darkness...
I ain't afraid of no ghosts ::)
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 11, 2010, 07:43:25 PM
Jessenice is a mess when you (and the Adders) arrive-they were hit by a sizeable bandit force sometime a week prior-and the bandits left one hell of a mess, Assuming the CIH troops land, they find lots of dead local militia and Kowloonese relief workers (armed), scattered in ruined cities, and evidence of a large, 'mech armed bandit force that had done...things to the ones out in the open (both locals and relief personnel). Horrible things.
A careful sweep finds a single disaster-bunker that had managed to remain unbreached, covered in a pile of bodies and rubble. Within the bunker, terrorized and terrified civilians, mostly women and children.
Unlike the other, broken-open raid shelters, these had survived because of a faulty beacon, one that had failed to activate, and the efforts of the dead men outside. The arrival of the Clan forces had clearly interrupted the attackers and frightened them off, but there are no living defenders to find.
some of the corpses on the ground, were partially eaten-knawed on by what appear to be human teeth...
<<Packs up his warships and goes back to Lum>>
"No sir, I draw the line at Reavers, ... they ain't human Mal!"
Could anybody provide us with a reliable timetable? I am completely lost what time (IC) the turn started. All I know is that we are in year 3069.. or so.
Dates are actually listed just below the link to the Turn folders now. So under Turn 40 it says "July-August 3069"
True. Thats way cool. Thanks. :)
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 11, 2010, 05:39:36 AM
Eh, I guess Clanners just aren't played like they used to be/should be. <shrug>
And how do you suppose Clanners should be played?
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 11, 2010, 12:09:59 AM
- A jumped up pirate with delusions of nobility.
Hey! I resemble that remark! >:(
;)
I still prefer being a noble with delusions of piracy :o
Holt, would you look into the Raid Thread and post some stuff? Your Mississaugan force might be interested..
That is the one force I am sure of will have to roll once or twice at least.
What the hell happened on Tharkad? Did the doors of Hell open? :o
Quote from: Marlin on June 12, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
What the hell happened on Tharkad? Did the doors of Hell open? :o
Someone Nuked Tharkad.
I guess so.
On another note: Silentwarrior? When will the trial for the Battleship start?
This turn? Because the buildup of the ship will be needed regardless of outcome at max possible speed.
Good job by the Terrans, or WoB, or whoever decided to blow Tharkad. Blame it on the Clans, galvanize the Sucessor Lords to stop their petty infighting and take us seriously. Could make things more uglier than they already were.
Heh, yeah. But it was mean and dishonorable. :P
And at Filtvelt it was big boom as well.. sheesh.. could become ugly soon.
Who says it was them? Could be the long arm of the Camels reaching out to touch some one... ;D
better hope nobody tries to prove that, i think a dishonorable act of that magnitude is enough to get you abjured
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 13, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
Good job by the Terrans, or WoB, or whoever decided to blow Tharkad. Blame it on the Clans, galvanize the Sucessor Lords to stop their petty infighting and take us seriously. Could make things more uglier than they already were.
Its not that we don't take you seriously its just that Lyran's dying gives some of us a happy.
I mean honestly. Let's look at the main threats to the FWL.
You have the Terran Hegemony whom you've been so kind as to bleed white.
The Lyran Commonwealth whom you've been so kind as to bleed white/dead.
Everyonelse largely friendly or incapable of harming us save in concert with one or both of the two aforementioned.
In short. I'll worry about the Clans when Tharkad falls and by worry I mean send you a case of some good ouso for doing me such a favor. :-)
Or you know the other Successor Lords could acctually offer the FWL something worth our involvement. Or not. ;-) We have one or two ideas on how to amuse ourselves.
Quote from: JediBear on June 12, 2010, 01:11:57 AM
And how do you suppose Clanners should be played?
More like warriors, less like Spheroid politicians. ;)
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 14, 2010, 12:13:54 AM
Quote from: JediBear on June 12, 2010, 01:11:57 AM
And how do you suppose Clanners should be played?
More like warriors, less like Spheroid politicians. ;)
but if they did that, every Clan would be electing new Khans after each GC Session....eventually theyd run out of Warriors...well, Trueborn ones anyways ;)
The Way of the Clans. ;)
that makes no sense
Makes more sense than Clan Khans calling other Clan Khans cowards and getting away with it, and Clan Khans hiding behind legal loopholes to avoid Trials and getting away with how weak that should make them look. But hey, since the bar's already been set and all...
You know, I'm starting to wonder what it would take to "honorably" take over a clan - not merge - take it over. It is the ultimate extension (or expression) of what I've now seen. ;D
Well, if a respectable and non-hypocritial Khan called another Khan a coward, and also realizes that following laws isnt the same as hiding behind them, i'd expect a reaction. In the meantime, the only person who has shown weakness, is the person who refuses to work with everyone else because of a percieved weakness for attempting to achieve a goal greater than personal glory, even at the expense of personal honor.
And it makes sense for someone to ignore slights to their honor, when the source of those slights has no honor in the eyes of the person they are slighting. Diana could care less what Schmitt has to say about her, because Diana knows that nothing she does will ever meet with approval. So why waste her time when there are better things to be done: like attempt to save Clan society?
Hey hey guys, corners. :-)
Look I think we all have some good Role Play going on here.
We got the Diana Pryde Clans working together Ulric the K style to stomp down the Terran Hegemony. There is some friction and not everyone is lovey dovey. not everyone's reactions would have been my reactions inchar but....that's part of the fun of Role Play.
While Tassa and the Blood Spirits are rawking hardcore zelbrigen Clanners like every-day. Which amongst which includes calling other Khans, un-clanlike, cowardly, bloodfoul, stravag freeborn trashborn not-Blood Spirits (Note that last one is the worst insult). Secure in the knowledge that should you wish to challenge us you must do so in single combat and since we're Blood Spirits that's the same thing as we already won. In the mind of a Blood Spirit that is, the dice might disagree with us.
So come on lets all put on our OOC happy faces. Secure in the knowledge that before long one or both of you will be slaughtered in single combat by SaKhan Caden Church for having the sheer temerity not to bid away four of your 6 extra heat sinks in your recent Trial of Grievance...I mean come-on EVERYONE knows that who is not a trashborn bloodfoul!
EDIT: You know what, Chaos? You're absolutely right. And it gives me wonderful IC excuses to ignore the other Clans for such wretched and weak behavior. :)
Quote from: Marlin on June 12, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
What the hell happened on Tharkad? Did the doors of Hell open? :o
I for one welcome the incorporation of CthuluTech rules!
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 14, 2010, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: Marlin on June 12, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
What the hell happened on Tharkad? Did the doors of Hell open? :o
I for one welcome the incorporation of CthuluTech rules!
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"
+1 for Cthulu.
Did someone mention..Cthulhu??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DsgZ4JXXB8
Holt? Again I would guide your view to Mississauga Raid. You might want to say something about it?
Why would i say something about it, if i have nothing to say?
Because on Mississauga your Ryuken is standing. They were last turn and wont be able to go away for the Recon Raid.
To be fair, last turn there was done by Dave B. himself. But as the Dracs are now under order of their own High command instead of SLDF, this would be your turn. I dont care who does the move, but I want it to go forward...
You are recon raiding on turn 40, they are not there on turn 40.
I fear they will have to. When they are there in 39 and fight, they cannot just leave the same turn. They will have to wait to Roll init in case there shows up a bad Clan knocking.
I suppose the raid goes even before that. But I will let the GMs decide this of course.
Unless i missed it, i dont see anything regarding Mississauga this turn other than the recon raid.
In the trial on Sudeten, the Terror of the Deep is noted as a McKenna. I'd though that the ship had been a Nightlord. Not a huge deal, just curious. Perhaps a mistake made over the course of so many player transitions.
Yeah sorry, dont have my orders with me, so just trying to go from memory....
Ahh...Finally...This has been a LONG time coming... :)
Yeah, the Megalodon is your McKenna ;) I see you updated the Posiedon too :)
i hope my comments were not taken as an OOC opinion of Tassa's RPing. They were my attempts at defending my RPing Diana. I think Tassa is doing a fine job of RPing a hardline, extremely conservative Clanner, and thats perfectly okay with me. But you'd be crazy to think that a freeborn warrior in Clan society, the first one to achieve a bloodname, let alone become a Khan, or Kerensky forbid, ilKhan, regardless of the fact of the number of customs and laws her father broke...is going to have the traditional outlook on honor and whatnot.
In my mind, from what i have read of Diana in cannon, and what i would surmise of what it requires of someone in her position to achieve the position that she's risen to, she would not have the traditional need to constantly defend her honor. Especially now where she has a specific set of goals, with her primary mission being to both cleanse the Clans of the conspiracy, and to eradicate the Inner Sphere of the Blood and the Hegemony in general. So while those goals remain unfulfilled, she is not concerned with someone calling her courage and honor into question: it has been a constant in her life anyways, and it will always happen. Were she to answer every challenge leveled at her, she would never be able to leave the circle of equals.
I just dont want anyone, especially Tassa himself, to think i was attacking him as a player/person. I was just trying to defend my position with Diana's RP, that's all. I point to the continued RP in the CJF RP thread as proof i hold no animosity against Tassa, and my willingness and hope that we can continue whats so far been some really fun RP from my view standpoint :)
Quote from: chaosxtreme on June 14, 2010, 01:44:41 AM
Hey hey guys, corners. :-)
Look I think we all have some good Role Play going on here.
We got the Diana Pryde Clans working together Ulric the K style to stomp down the Terran Hegemony. There is some friction and not everyone is lovey dovey. not everyone's reactions would have been my reactions inchar but....that's part of the fun of Role Play.
While Tassa and the Blood Spirits are rawking hardcore zelbrigen Clanners like every-day. Which amongst which includes calling other Khans, un-clanlike, cowardly, bloodfoul, stravag freeborn trashborn not-Blood Spirits (Note that last one is the worst insult). Secure in the knowledge that should you wish to challenge us you must do so in single combat and since we're Blood Spirits that's the same thing as we already won. In the mind of a Blood Spirit that is, the dice might disagree with us.
So come on lets all put on our OOC happy faces. Secure in the knowledge that before long one or both of you will be slaughtered in single combat by SaKhan Caden Church for having the sheer temerity not to bid away four of your 6 extra heat sinks in your recent Trial of Grievance...I mean come-on EVERYONE knows that who is not a trashborn bloodfoul!
Quote from: GraeGor on June 16, 2010, 02:10:29 PM
and when you take into account that Addergrad has been used IC ever since in all dealings, whether with Clan or IS, it would be nice to actually have the map reflect such...and I have no issue with keeping Somerset on the map for IS/SL purposes, say in parenthesis, like New Kerensky (The Rack) and Phelan (Pain)
Thanks. I've been seeing those names in conversation and had no idea what planets people were talking about. ???
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 16, 2010, 02:36:02 PM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 16, 2010, 02:10:29 PM
and when you take into account that Addergrad has been used IC ever since in all dealings, whether with Clan or IS, it would be nice to actually have the map reflect such...and I have no issue with keeping Somerset on the map for IS/SL purposes, say in parenthesis, like New Kerensky (The Rack) and Phelan (Pain)
Thanks. I've been seeing those names in conversation and had no idea what planets people were talking about. ???
Yeah, that's why I reconsidered the policy on banning name changes on the map - some names like Addergrad go so far back in the RP now that leaving it as just "Somerset" is prone to cause more confusion than changing it at this point.
Plus, to be honest, it enhances the accuracy of the map.
EDIT: Deleted... for all the good it does. ;D
Horse Alliance?
I think I'm going to be ill.
(http://www.dailyencouragement.net/images/amish/amish_pony_ride.jpg)
??
LOL!!! I spewed! :D
+1 for buggy goodness.
Do we get a curtesy email saying if we didn't get anything in R&D? Now that I have a faction that has an actual shot at rolling something I wanted to know if I failed or they weren't sent cause I didn't see a thread saying that the rolls were done.
Quote from: Fatebringer on June 16, 2010, 11:37:03 PM
Do we get a curtesy email saying if we didn't get anything in R&D? Now that I have a faction that has an actual shot at rolling something I wanted to know if I failed or they weren't sent cause I didn't see a thread saying that the rolls were done.
If your orders indicated an R&D roll, the results should be included in your monthly report PM. If you didn't pay for R&D (and didn't opt for free R&D if it was an appropriate turn), it won't be included in your report.
Just an FYI. Thanks to Marlin we now have maps from Turn's 9 and 15. Thanks Marlin :)
-Josh
SOmeone should do a small gif. clip to show the changes over time. :D
Should be rather interesting.
I have maps from turns 8,9,10,11,14,15,16,20,21,22,23,26 and 27, if you need them still. I think before that turn, we didn't update the map regularly, but for what ever reason I don't have anything from before that, except for what I think is the innital map from the start of the game.
Hey IM - if they don't post them, could you email them to me in a week?
I ask as I think something got sort of vaporized, but I didn't keep them back then so I am not sure.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on June 17, 2010, 12:03:51 AM
If your orders indicated an R&D roll, the results should be included in your monthly report PM. If you didn't pay for R&D (and didn't opt for free R&D if it was an appropriate turn), it won't be included in your report.
How does one opt for free R&D?
Currently for the Clan, you wait three turns (Next Roll Turn 41) and pray for a 12 :P
For factions that make 35 RP a turn, it's not worth paying 5 to pray for 12's in the interim :P
Quote from: Marlin on June 18, 2010, 08:37:45 PM
Quote from: Dave Baughman on June 17, 2010, 12:03:51 AM
If your orders indicated an R&D roll, the results should be included in your monthly report PM. If you didn't pay for R&D (and didn't opt for free R&D if it was an appropriate turn), it won't be included in your report.
How does one opt for free R&D?
The current version of the sheet that is circulating I believe has a "free R&D" option that can be selected with a 0 RP price.
Aaah, I misunderstood the question :P
Theres an option right below the Training box, and above the Intelligence Ratings section.
Am i really the only Clan that has a Prestigious Facility??? Dave, were you aware i had them when you've been making my rolls the past few turns? I have 2...
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 19, 2010, 03:58:31 PM
Theres an option right below the Training box, and above the Intelligence Ratings section.
Am i really the only Clan that has a Prestigious Facility??? Dave, were you aware i had them when you've been making my rolls the past few turns? I have 2...
Not the only one...
Also, yes - I make a point of checking the income tab to see the total number of PFs before I make that roll.
A quick look shows the Camels with one, the Adders with at least two (I could have sworn we had another some place), the Wolves with four or more, the Bears with quite a few, looks like three for the Sharks... I think the problem is that none were awarded in the Homeworlds. All of thouse PFs are in the IS or periphery (the Sharks get many from their spacestations). There was a proposal to give some for each capitol world, or for wholely controlled worlds, but I don't know that it was ever implemented.
One of mine is within the Homeworlds actually
The real reason why the Clans are so bad off on PFs is because at one point in the game (turn 20) some factions recevied "freebie" PFs. Any faction that wasn't in the game at the time (i.e. the homeworld Clans), missed out. Later, when the homeworlds were brought in, they were given free hex improvements to compensate for their time "out of circulation" but were not allowed to allocate any of these as PFs.
I am currently looking at several solutions to the PF gap and its far-reaching impacts on game balance, but none of them are developed enough to post a working draft yet.
It always struck me as backwards that the IS was actually superior to the Clans in terms of technological advances suddenly. But its all good, we'll still crush them on the battlefields :)
That's because the clans are simply refining the tech left by the Star League.
Quite. Very few clans really have well devloped scientest castes anyway, or make many advances. The canon Coyotes, the Mandrill Faraday-Tanagas, and one or two others are some of the very few elements noted for skill in that area. Conversly, there is a big conspearacy going on with the scientests, so perhaps that can be used to explain why the Clans have faired so poorly in R and D!
But they have a bigtime head start. Alot of their advanced weapon systems that havn't made it out yet would be currently under some type of prototyping or development. I'm not saying that the Clans should be switching places with the IS in the PF facility, but their Scientists have the advantage of never having lost any technology, and not having to start a half a milenium backwards from the point of the invasion to come upto snuff.
Its just always bothered me slightly that the Clans have no real balancing factor in-game: they're outnumbered, as they should be; they're out produced, as they should be; our level of military technology, conspiracy or no, should still be on a somewhat higher plane than the IS: even when we both have the exact same weapon systems, the Clans have the superior performing examples of that weapon system, and generally develop new/upgraded weapon systems quicker than the IS(atleast it seems like all the best toys come from the Clans and get reverse engineered by the NAIS).
But when the game runs off of intangibles like FP, and it requires 1 RP to create 1 FP, wether you're the Lyran Archon, a Clan Khan, or a Bandit King in the galactic southeast, the RP production puts the war effort heavily into the IS favor...which wouldn't bother me as much, if the Clans had something that actually denoted their superior technology, the much higher ratio of Omnis, the near perfect ratio of Clantech weapons(giving firepower superiority to the Clans in an equal FP scenario), and other things.
I just think that to balance things out a bit, to give the Clans a more fighting chance against the sheer over whealming production capacity of economic power of the Great Houses, there should be something that balances in the Clans favor:
Maybe thats a big bonus to salvage and/or Battlefield Repair, showcasing the resourceful recycling and skill of the Technician caste in working repair and salvage miracles to keep the warmachines running without a constant stream of spares from the factories.
Maybe its making it so that the Clans get a better than 1:1 ratio from salvaged FP converted to RP if it's used to produce FP in the following turn.
Maybe its decreasing the ratio of RP:FP to build new combat units, representing again the better salvage, scrounging, and total minimums of waste that exist in Clan society.
I'm just thinking of something to possibly try and make it so that the IS doesnt just overrun the Clans with sheer numbers that we can't compete with. I'd hate to see that happen, and as an example, although i'm not 100% because i dont know their FPs, i'm about 50% that the TH forces on Pandora outnumber the entire CJF touman in the IS.
I dont want this to seem like whining from a newbie who comes in and finds that he joined a faction who isn't kicking ass: i'm totally happy with the gameplay, I've been having a great time, and despite a couple of isolated occasions where i've taken the game personally and had to step back and tell myself to calm down and stop acting like a child: i've had nothing but a great experiance, and i'm looking foreward to more. I just wanted to say something that's been nagging me, and that is the disadvantage the Clans face in almost every aspect of this game: economics, industrial capacity, those are both stemming from the size of empire, and theres nothing we can do untill we totally conquor the Lyrans and begin massive economic buildups...it'll happen :) But, the Intelligence defict, the R&D deficet, the non-representation of Clan tech/society/breeding in combat just seems to be something that happened, and i wanted to say something.
Please don't flame, i'm not bashing the game. Just stating an opinion that maybe something needs to be looked at.
I think the Clans are just that week.
Back in the day, Clan forces cost half what IS forces did, since they got a trinary for the same price as an IS company, but that trinary had twice the combat power. But, the Clans had much smaller RP production. Now, it is even, but the homeworlds make a lot more RP than ever, so a big rich Clan can make as much as the CC, or even more. Having a giant pool of (IS) invasion proof RPs that are way more produtive than any IS world is a big Clan edge, which I think ballances out the cost.
And trying to look at the Terrans in terms of game ballance is just asking for trouble. They're not ballanced, and they're not intended to be, at least not on a faction by faction basis. You can argue with weather that was a sound idea or not (I never cared for it) but it is what it is. At one point, Terran forces on the FWL northern bourder were twice the FWL's whole army, not even counting the huge force they had in the MH. And the FWL was (and is) amoung the richest and most powerful great houses.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 20, 2010, 06:46:01 AM
But they have a bigtime head start. Alot of their advanced weapon systems that havn't made it out yet would be currently under some type of prototyping or development. I'm not saying that the Clans should be switching places with the IS in the PF facility, but their Scientists have the advantage of never having lost any technology, and not having to start a half a milenium backwards from the point of the invasion to come upto snuff.
Its just always bothered me slightly that the Clans have no real balancing factor in-game: they're outnumbered, as they should be; they're out produced, as they should be; our level of military technology, conspiracy or no, should still be on a somewhat higher plane than the IS: even when we both have the exact same weapon systems, the Clans have the superior performing examples of that weapon system, and generally develop new/upgraded weapon systems quicker than the IS(atleast it seems like all the best toys come from the Clans and get reverse engineered by the NAIS).
But when the game runs off of intangibles like FP, and it requires 1 RP to create 1 FP, wether you're the Lyran Archon, a Clan Khan, or a Bandit King in the galactic southeast, the RP production puts the war effort heavily into the IS favor...which wouldn't bother me as much, if the Clans had something that actually denoted their superior technology, the much higher ratio of Omnis, the near perfect ratio of Clantech weapons(giving firepower superiority to the Clans in an equal FP scenario), and other things.
I just think that to balance things out a bit, to give the Clans a more fighting chance against the sheer over whealming production capacity of economic power of the Great Houses, there should be something that balances in the Clans favor:
Maybe thats a big bonus to salvage and/or Battlefield Repair, showcasing the resourceful recycling and skill of the Technician caste in working repair and salvage miracles to keep the warmachines running without a constant stream of spares from the factories.
Maybe its making it so that the Clans get a better than 1:1 ratio from salvaged FP converted to RP if it's used to produce FP in the following turn.
Maybe its decreasing the ratio of RP:FP to build new combat units, representing again the better salvage, scrounging, and total minimums of waste that exist in Clan society.
I'm just thinking of something to possibly try and make it so that the IS doesnt just overrun the Clans with sheer numbers that we can't compete with. I'd hate to see that happen, and as an example, although i'm not 100% because i dont know their FPs, i'm about 50% that the TH forces on Pandora outnumber the entire CJF touman in the IS.
I dont want this to seem like whining from a newbie who comes in and finds that he joined a faction who isn't kicking ass: i'm totally happy with the gameplay, I've been having a great time, and despite a couple of isolated occasions where i've taken the game personally and had to step back and tell myself to calm down and stop acting like a child: i've had nothing but a great experiance, and i'm looking foreward to more. I just wanted to say something that's been nagging me, and that is the disadvantage the Clans face in almost every aspect of this game: economics, industrial capacity, those are both stemming from the size of empire, and theres nothing we can do untill we totally conquor the Lyrans and begin massive economic buildups...it'll happen :) But, the Intelligence defict, the R&D deficet, the non-representation of Clan tech/society/breeding in combat just seems to be something that happened, and i wanted to say something.
Please don't flame, i'm not bashing the game. Just stating an opinion that maybe something needs to be looked at.
Um...dude, have you looked at the map lately? it's the
IS being overrun. Just do a count of factories and shipyards. Also, ratings don't tell the whole story-the Lyrans (Very highly rated intel) haven't won an Intel check since before I joined in C26.
EVERY check, Daemonknight, whether against the Clans, or the "Rim worlds" has been a failure. one hundered percent failure, since about turn 5 or so, with changes to GM staff so it's not a vendetta on that end.
My point is, the existing rules don't hamper or hammer the clans as severely as you might think-the proof is on the map.
I see the map very clearly: i see the Lyrans have been taking something of a beating in the past few turns on coordinated Clan strikes, but i also see that the rest of the IS is quietly humming away preparing for when we eventually turn our attention their way. The FedSuns are pushing the Dark back from their Realm, the Combine is retaking the worlds the Spirits grabbed on their aborted invasion, and there is a constant give and take of worlds around Sudeten.
And your intel checks are dependant on both a roll, modifiers, and which level of the operation you choose to run...so if your IG is 4, but the RWR has a CI of 3, and you only run the base level of Operation Orders, of course you wont get much. However, your operations against the much lower Clan CIs will generally meet with more sucess, especially if you buy the higher bonus versions of those ops.
I think that the IS could totally overrun the Clans if they just got together and actually tried it.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 21, 2010, 12:54:27 AM
I see the map very clearly: i see the Lyrans have been taking something of a beating in the past few turns on coordinated Clan strikes, but i also see that the rest of the IS is quietly humming away preparing for when we eventually turn our attention their way. The FedSuns are pushing the Dark back from their Realm, the Combine is retaking the worlds the Spirits grabbed on their aborted invasion, and there is a constant give and take of worlds around Sudeten.
And your intel checks are dependant on both a roll, modifiers, and which level of the operation you choose to run...so if your IG is 4, but the RWR has a CI of 3, and you only run the base level of Operation Orders, of course you wont get much. However, your operations against the much lower Clan CIs will generally meet with more sucess, especially if you buy the higher bonus versions of those ops.
I think that the IS could totally overrun the Clans if they just got together and actually tried it.
They
did try, and it
failed.
Of course its also fair to say that right now all of us are inclined to support the states fighting the Clans.
The main thrust of the Clan attack is based upon two assumptions. They want the not-named dead, and the Combine and the LC are in the way.
The Spirit invasion may have been foiled but how many Combine attacks on Clan holdings do you see this turn? Or the turn before it? Or the turn before that?
It essentially robbed the LC of their quite frankly most active ally that was returning worlds retaken from the Clans to them. At least in the short term.
Terrans are holding onto the worlds themselves as "staging bases" Taurians were making theirs "independent"
As for the FWL we're just not all that interested in bleeding for the Elsyies without proper remuneration (their lack of help the last few times the TH invaded us means we're completely unconvinced about their promises of mutual defense). I am sure we could be persuaded. But no one's really asked about our asking price, and we haven't been offering it up.
The Capellan's have had problems of their own at Capella and with Quintus coming down with "Born a Liao" disease.
It is also fair to say the Inner Sphere hasn't had a concerted effort to beat the Clans by all Inner Sphere powers in quite sometime if ever. Simply put I can't think of one time all the houses were on board.
I mean what offensive against the Clans even including Butler contained the full strength of the Inner Sphere? Everyone might have gotten involved but I bet they were keeping the home borders WELL defended.
So in short I think its an unfair argument to make "Well if the IS just got together they could overrun the Clans". Its not IS vs Clans, because simply put the constituent state's of the IS are not a unified state, the Star League in its current incarnation functions more like a the UN. Something the FWL very much see's as an advantage. As stopping the Clans quite frankly is a open secret is NOT real high on our list of things to do. Being seen to do what is "required" as a member of the SL and no more of course is. I'm actually surprised no one has done any Role Play about that yet.
As for the Periphery states? Other then the MoC the only non SL member by the way, when was the last time they sent serious forces against the Clans? Outworlds have defected to the Horses, Marians never despite being the TH's quislings, and the Taurians hit like one world? Hardly a major commitment. Heck of the state's non-engaged by the Clans I think I'm first or second for force commitment and I'm doing my best to honor my treaties to the letter rather then the spirit.
On the other end? I don't get the "Clans are in a bad spot" vibe. Or the "no balancing factor" vibe, This coalition of the Clan's can't hold. Not for long, not indefinitely and that is what has you worried.
Some Clans are profiting off the LC more than others. So sooner or later one clan or the other is going to tell Diana to go hang and the Clans will be at each others throats as they were designed to be.
When that happens well....the LC thing will even out and the Lyrans even without establishing alliances with anyone else become credible again (I.e. relying on the Combine and the FS), they can theoretically evict the invading clans one by one unless the Clans band together again. Which they won't initially.
The Clans have balancing factors, 50 RP per clan, and 50 Warships split up between you by trial + your toumans, and lets be honest are HAG's really that awesome?
Unless of course a Clan or two decide to make some more friends to the South. That could barefruit. I've heard some of that going on OOC but I dont give it much credence after all. If they were going to do that they would contact me. 3 wars with the Not-Named where the not-named used massive orbital bombardment. Its really a no brainer to contact the FWL.
I know that eventually the coalition as it is will eventually end. Its already abundantly clear that the Blood Spirits have a bone to pick with Diana over her 'cowardice' as they call it, and the GC in general because of the changes to their society from the good old days of everything being settled in the CoE...which i personally enjoy the idea of, but its not really practical in the situation we're in right now.
Wil Diana lose her position? Of course she will, i have a feeling that in the next 4-5 turns, there will be a significant challenge to her position, not like Schmitt's ToG, which doesnt actually accomplish anything except for Schmitt trying to prove that shes a better warrior than Diana, and that it satisfies her honor. But a ToG doesnt actually remove Diana from her position...but i know it will come from somewhere. Blood Spirits are most likly at the top of the list. Vipers not far behind, although Zalman agrees with the intentions if not the execution of Diana's plans. But i feel that i am doing a solid job of playing a freeborn warrior who became ilKhan: she isn't as hung up on her personal honor, because its obvious to her that she will never do enough to earn the total respect that any trueborn would recieve in her position.
Will the coalition fail? Yes and No. Diana will eventually no longer be ilKhan, and will either be dead, or revert to being a high-ranking officer of the Jade Falcons. However, the 'coalition' isn't based on Diana's personality. The Clans fighting together in the IS will most likly still be doing so even after Diana is killed(battle or a Trial), or removed for some reason. Their cooperation is based on their respective Clans, Diana simply is a figurehead that is trying her best to keep the infighting to an absolute minimum. And even though some hate Diana, they dont automaticlly hate the Jade Falcons(infact, the events on Foster concerning saKhan Pryde earned him the respect of the Blood Spirits, or atleast one of their Galaxy Commanders). So no, i am not really all that worried about the 'coalition' failing, and the Clans reverting to their pre-invasion self destruction.
When i say that the Clans are in a bad spot, you touched on it yourself: there has never been a true, 100% group effort by the IS Houses to try and push the Clans from the IS. It hasn't happened, but if it did, just look at the maps: theres no way the Clans could contest against factions with such a larger economic and industrial base to work with. And the Clans would have a much harder time disrupting that because of its vastness and dispersion: the Clans by contrast, have a much smaller IS collective realm, meaning it would be easier to disrupt their ability to deploy forces to the IS. If theres no more Clan MFs in the IS for example, then that means everything has to be built back in the Homeworlds, and it takes massive MPs to move anything down to the IS. They could do it, but it would be starting over, except this time the IS would be ready and waiting.
I dont think the Clans need to be given some like, zomgbbq boosted anything. Infact, i dont even know what i would propose, because i obviously dont have all the statistics. But if the IS ever had a real, honest to goodness combined effort, not like "oh, sure, i'll send 5 regiments", a REAL, "lets go kick those test tube babies outa here!" effort: the Clans would be overrun. Thats the way its supposed to be. But the Clans are also supposed to have superior warriors, and superior tech...which the rules dont really take into account.
So, it takes the Clans 2FP to create an assault mech unit, a binary, 10 battlemechs = 2FP. The IS needs only to spend 1.5RP, making 12 assault battlemechs, a company, at 1.5 FP for IS2 tech(the average tech level of IS units i would surmise). But if they made a Clan-tech company of 12 assault mechs, it would be the same 2RP to 2FP build.
I would think that the Clans would be more efficent at building their own technology than the IS. As a random idea, maybe the Clans would get a small discount, representing their more advanced technology in manufacturing, and also they've got the experiance in building the mechs. Not to mention the whole salvaging aspect of their society, which means that almost any battlemech created probably has some of its parts salvaged from a destroyed mech: power conduits in the arm, engine shielding from that Mad Cat, maybe the CASE out of an Atlas...
I'm just saying, something to allow the Clans to try and balance their severely outnumbered forces, with the ability to spread their RP out a bit more: salvaging materials, no red tape to cut through, generations of experiance with technology that the IS factories and techs have only been working on for the past decade or so. I'm not saying its breaking the game in any way. Just stating an opinion.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 21, 2010, 06:26:36 AM
I know that eventually the coalition as it is will eventually end. Its already abundantly clear that the Blood Spirits have a bone to pick with Diana over her 'cowardice' as they call it, and the GC in general because of the changes to their society from the good old days of everything being settled in the CoE...which i personally enjoy the idea of, but its not really practical in the situation we're in right now.
Wil Diana lose her position? Of course she will, i have a feeling that in the next 4-5 turns, there will be a significant challenge to her position, not like Schmitt's ToG, which doesnt actually accomplish anything except for Schmitt trying to prove that shes a better warrior than Diana, and that it satisfies her honor. But a ToG doesnt actually remove Diana from her position...but i know it will come from somewhere. Blood Spirits are most likly at the top of the list. Vipers not far behind, although Zalman agrees with the intentions if not the execution of Diana's plans. But i feel that i am doing a solid job of playing a freeborn warrior who became ilKhan: she isn't as hung up on her personal honor, because its obvious to her that she will never do enough to earn the total respect that any trueborn would recieve in her position.
Will the coalition fail? Yes and No. Diana will eventually no longer be ilKhan, and will either be dead, or revert to being a high-ranking officer of the Jade Falcons. However, the 'coalition' isn't based on Diana's personality. The Clans fighting together in the IS will most likly still be doing so even after Diana is killed(battle or a Trial), or removed for some reason. Their cooperation is based on their respective Clans, Diana simply is a figurehead that is trying her best to keep the infighting to an absolute minimum. And even though some hate Diana, they dont automaticlly hate the Jade Falcons(infact, the events on Foster concerning saKhan Pryde earned him the respect of the Blood Spirits, or atleast one of their Galaxy Commanders). So no, i am not really all that worried about the 'coalition' failing, and the Clans reverting to their pre-invasion self destruction.
When i say that the Clans are in a bad spot, you touched on it yourself: there has never been a true, 100% group effort by the IS Houses to try and push the Clans from the IS. It hasn't happened, but if it did, just look at the maps: theres no way the Clans could contest against factions with such a larger economic and industrial base to work with. And the Clans would have a much harder time disrupting that because of its vastness and dispersion: the Clans by contrast, have a much smaller IS collective realm, meaning it would be easier to disrupt their ability to deploy forces to the IS. If theres no more Clan MFs in the IS for example, then that means everything has to be built back in the Homeworlds, and it takes massive MPs to move anything down to the IS. They could do it, but it would be starting over, except this time the IS would be ready and waiting.
I dont think the Clans need to be given some like, zomgbbq boosted anything. Infact, i dont even know what i would propose, because i obviously dont have all the statistics. But if the IS ever had a real, honest to goodness combined effort, not like "oh, sure, i'll send 5 regiments", a REAL, "lets go kick those test tube babies outa here!" effort: the Clans would be overrun. Thats the way its supposed to be. But the Clans are also supposed to have superior warriors, and superior tech...which the rules dont really take into account.
So, it takes the Clans 2FP to create an assault mech unit, a binary, 10 battlemechs = 2FP. The IS needs only to spend 1.5RP, making 12 assault battlemechs, a company, at 1.5 FP for IS2 tech(the average tech level of IS units i would surmise). But if they made a Clan-tech company of 12 assault mechs, it would be the same 2RP to 2FP build.
I would think that the Clans would be more efficent at building their own technology than the IS. As a random idea, maybe the Clans would get a small discount, representing their more advanced technology in manufacturing, and also they've got the experiance in building the mechs. Not to mention the whole salvaging aspect of their society, which means that almost any battlemech created probably has some of its parts salvaged from a destroyed mech: power conduits in the arm, engine shielding from that Mad Cat, maybe the CASE out of an Atlas...
I'm just saying, something to allow the Clans to try and balance their severely outnumbered forces, with the ability to spread their RP out a bit more: salvaging materials, no red tape to cut through, generations of experiance with technology that the IS factories and techs have only been working on for the past decade or so. I'm not saying its breaking the game in any way. Just stating an opinion.
Well a Clantech ER PPC to the head is a fairly final way to end someone's IlKhanship.
You are right about a lot of things. Though I disagree with others. The Clans don't need to be buffed to protect against some fabled "IS standing together against us" scenario. Anymore then individual IS states "Need to be buffed to prevent the Clans from running over us since they are fighting together" scenario. One such scenario is actually real right now (the IS state getting attacked by all the Clans).
Now would a return to status quo prevent clans from cooperating? No. Would it modify the strategic situation? Yes. Too many clans have left the HW's under garrisoned. Why? Because if attacked they know they can get other clans to "contract" their HW forces to aid in retaking the lost sectors as it "violates" the ilkhans ruling. While lessened these forces are more than enough to protect against a IS long range strike due to multiple clans would meet such an attack if not on the first turn upon it reaching the HW's then on the 2nd turn.
Under the latest set of edicts all the Clans have to protect against is the Scientist conspirators essentially bandit caste and a long range hail mary strike from the IS. This is not normal for the Clans.
The Coalition will eventually start infighting as the strongest Clan's start setting themselves up to be the new IlClan for taking Terra. As someone has to take Terra to end the not-named threat from a Clan point of view. The question is what happens when that does happen? Do the Clans actually fight for the right to take Terra? Or are all the other Clans going to genuflect to the Adders, Falcons or Bears? Nope. There is gonna be a fight.
Before or after Terra it doesn't really matter. This coalition if it IS successful will eventually be dust long term wise. If it were a permanent thing. Or a threat to the FWL we would have to take it far more seriously rather then looking upon it as fortune for weakening the Lyrans.
We can talk about what we think will take place politicaly all we want, and that's fine and well, but let's speak to the point about balance.
I don't think political ballance is important or desired. Some factions are larger, some are smaller. Would we say that the periphery is poorly ballanced against the IS, or the Clans? We could, since it is true that the periphery nations as a group have much less of every mesurable thing than either the Clans as a group or the IS as a group. But we wouldn't. Part of that is because by and large, the periphery does not enjoy the same sort of adversarial relationship with the IS (or for that matter the Clans) but part of it is because we know full well that it shouldn't be. The periphery should be weeker. Much weeker. And yet when the colective power of all the nations combined started to aproach the power of one IS house, look at how we hemed and hawed (though the rule that led to that was badly broken, and I stand by that statment).
So why do we expect that there should be some sort of parity between the Clans and IS? There isn't in canon. There never has been, and most likely there never will be. This game has also never featured it. Does it throw one side or the other a bone every now and then to help, sure, but mostly to make up for some other harm that was done. Yes the Clans got 80 warships, but ten of them also got sidelined for a year, and could have made 100 in that time, or done other things (or fought amoungs themselves and killed one another off, but we'll never know). Both sides (if we are to speak of sides, which is often problematic) gain and lose from random events.
Should manufacturing be at an equal level? Why not? The fact is that for all we track things, FP and RP and MP are all pretty abstract. Why should a company of Awesomes (very powerful yet very cheap) be equal to a company of Chargers (very poor yet very expensive)? Why would Executioners and Kingfishers cost the same? Is a Dire Wolf really worth two Mist Lynxes? Is a Gargoyle really worth two Cougers? And that's just mechs within the same tech base! The examples are innumerable.
I think the idea is that at the end of the day, you pay for performance, and FP is the mesure of that performance. We don't offer good buys or bad buys, or else we'd have some power gamers start to over power thouse who want to role play honestly. Imagine if assualts were better value than lights (or vice versa). How would a Hellion or Combine (or Bear/Lyran)player manage that?
Can we see a few problems? Perhaps. Yes, the Clans only get ten mechs, but they get more skilled pilots, which makes the BVs come out very close. I think its pretty even. Is it perportionaly harder to transport Clan mechs, given that less make up each FP? It is, but in a world where a regement of PBIs is easier to move than a lance of locusts, we don't look for sense; one might imagine that Clan prima donnas need more logistical support for their fancy omni mechs, if one needs a real reason.
Is salvage an issue? Perhaps. I think part of is that our damage tables are so high and retreat is so hard that forces are almost always wiped out, offering a lot of potental salvage for the victor. Too often, I think salvage is too generious, as victorious forces can come away with no damage, despite having distroyed many regements of the enemy. But, as I say, I think we should just tone down damage tables (formerly, the rational was that making it painful is an excuse to encourage MM, and a way to save the GMs time in doing the rolls at month's end, but now that we do our own rolls and MM is slowly going the way of the dinosaur, we could probably do it) and make it easier to retreat (as I mentioned recently, we've still technicly got retreat rules on the books, and in both canon and real life forces almost never fight to annihlation, yet that is the norm for this game) rather than change salvage rules, at least to start.
If want to show that a faction can make more or fewer mechs, then chaning their RP and number of MFs is the way of that. If we think that the Falcons and Lyrans can make an equal number of assualt mechs, for example (and I don't think we do) then we'd still need to give the Falcons more MFs and more RPs, because in producing the same number of mechs, they'd get more combat power, meaning more FP. Would it be fair just to give it to them at the same price because we think they need help? I would say no.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on June 21, 2010, 04:18:09 PM
And, the make up sex was good.
LMAO
I think that is the first time Ive ever read that in a Clan IC thread
I assume that Filtvelt as well as Tharkad are prone to a Terror check? (I would say both worlds got hit at a civilian facility, no? Tharkad in any case)
And if I see it right, nice one for the Spirits as there is no Terror at all?
Flitvelt has already had a Terror Check and it lasts 3 turns. On the plus side, I have a Battalion + For each point the dark has on planet.
Alrighty. :) Good luck hunting them down.
I'm looking at the Combined Map for turn 40 and even at 400% zoom, it's mostly too small to read. Anyone else having this problem, or do I just need to find a better reader?
What are you using? The maps are in .pdf format, you should be able to use the free Adobe Reader software. Thats what i use, and it works perfectly: zoom into 6-800 depending on what i'm exactly looking at, and i can read it fine. Scales perfectly, no pixelation or anything obviously...what're u using that wont go above 400%?
The free Adobe reader is what you should be using. It works fine with that.
Quote from: JediBear on June 22, 2010, 10:39:59 AM
I'm looking at the Combined Map for turn 40 and even at 400% zoom, it's mostly too small to read. Anyone else having this problem, or do I just need to find a better reader?
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 22, 2010, 10:49:59 AM
What are you using? The maps are in .pdf format, you should be able to use the free Adobe Reader software.
Eh, but then I'd have to
install it, which is a bit more of a bother on a Linux box.
My windows box went down a while ago, and I've been making do with the linux box I built for doing coursework at the university.
I'm not quite as enthusiastic as Linux users are supposed to be, so I mostly tend not to install new stuff on it, especially since installing anything on Linux can be a right pain in the arse.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 22, 2010, 10:49:59 AM
Thats what i use, and it works perfectly: zoom into 6-800 depending on what i'm exactly looking at, and i can read it fine. Scales perfectly, no pixelation or anything obviously...what're u using that wont go above 400%?
Gnome Evince. Seems to be one of its current limitations.
Microsoft may very well be the evil empire, with the Death Star that is the Windows OS, however, unless you REALLY have a reason to hate Microsoft(which most people dont, they just think that Linux users get extra geek/nerd credit...rarely does it happen), or unless you REALLY love Linux/Unix, Windows is just so much more accesible.
If installing programs is a PitA, then whats the point of the system, you know? I have issues with Windows, sure...but i can use it alot easier than learning all the command lines for Linux. I dont even remember them all for DOS...ah, my childhood. Trying to remember C:\Programs\Games\Blizzard\Warcraft\Warcraft.exe :P
Baker 3 is now locked until I get with Dave in a couple of hours and we discuss the situation.
apt-get install etc etc
yum install etc etc
make etc etc
the man page is your friend. :-)
As a Sys Admin I have reasons to hate Microsoft, I have a reasons to hate Mac OSX, and I have reasons to hate every flavor of Linux/Unix.
Their uniform failure to eliminate PIC&K issues has induced much hate against them.
(Problem Inbetween Chair & Keyboard)
Quote from: LittleH13 on June 22, 2010, 01:37:17 PM
Baker 3 is now locked until I get with Dave in a couple of hours and we discuss the situation.
OK, Baker 3 is unlocked. Daemon, please see my reply and update us.
While I'm sure the deletion that started this whole mess was an accident, I have disabled the ability of regular users to delete posts going forward, just to avoid any repeats of the mix-up. If you have something you need deleted, just let Josh or I know and we will assist.
So us foot-in-mouthers will have to come to you ;) Meh, I see only good coming from this decision.
Sorry if i made someone mad, or did something to make people suspicious. I already said in the thread i'll just surrender the hex to make everyone happy. I didnt think it was going to become something so big the GMs needed to get involved like that.
Don't sweat it, DK. You'll get that territory back and more when the Lyrans finally collapse. ;)
Heh, there is always that to keep me warm at night :P
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 22, 2010, 04:33:33 PM
Sorry if i made someone mad, or did something to make people suspicious. I already said in the thread i'll just surrender the hex to make everyone happy. I didnt think it was going to become something so big the GMs needed to get involved like that.
No anger involved, just trying to keep everything running smoothly. The mixup with the deletion is actually healthy for the game in the long run, since it highlighted the issue in a low-stress situation -- instead of it coming up during a major plot event or under circumstances where people might suspect foul play.
Basically, but having a completely innocent accidental deletion happen like this, it served as a "wake up call" for me as administrator that I needed to adjust the permissions in order to ensure document retention.
Ok. So what does that mean for the outcome: will the 12 stand, resulting in the CJF defeating the Lyrans? Thats obviously what i would prefer, i offered the surrender just incase there was some suspicion or whatever.
I'm in favour of letting him have three crit chances, and I've got story-reasons for the Lyrans to abandon the invasion (Dave knows what those are-among other things, the purge back in earlier cycles of Rowe-ists in the Navy resulted in some...interesting...choices of flag-captains, and Evelyn Mosovich is the commander-of-record for the 416th Commonwealth Guard.)
However, I'm NOT in favour of letting him get that win cheap. (by "Cheap" I mean I'm not in favour of his proposed 95% reduction in Falcon Casualties.)
I just fought an impossible battle against the Adders, remember-and the only reason I had to accept Hegira, is that they (the Adders) were about to reinforce with some fifteen-to-one odds and the Marines were down to a tenth of a force-point. If a bunch of scrub marine infantry from a minor world on the ass end of nowhere using borrowed gear can manage that (and, barring the sealed-orders, they would have actually held the world, the Adders at least, have been played as being that honourable in my presence), a Jade Falcon Galaxy should be able to do as well against an enemy whose will-to-conquer is...reduced and chain of command in tatters.
i.e. it's actually probable/likely that the Lyrans, with their government in chaos, might well be driven off yet inflict that kind of damage in that event- the Falcons get in a solid blow on the most fanatical elements (the Tamar Cavaliers) at the same time that the call to "Return Home" is recieved by the major asset-the ensuing mutiny guarantees that the bigger portion of the aerospace and warship contingent, and anyone that wants a ride out of there, is going to bolt, anybody stupid enough to hang around for the inevitable counter-attack deserves to die on site.
Further, "Force Destroyed" doesn't instantly equate into "Warriors Annihilated"-it means the Baker 3 situation reverts to the raid table (teh invasion is GOING to fail) and they pick up 50% of whatever gets killed there as salvage.
REmember, it's not heroic, if it's easy.
He has a choice, if the 12 stands. Insta Win OR 3 crits. Insta Win means some 'deus ex machina' gives him a victory. Something unusual. However, he does not ALSO get the three crits. So, he should still take the total damage he took.
Quote from: NVA on June 22, 2010, 06:57:00 PM
He has a choice, if the 12 stands. Insta Win OR 3 crits. Insta Win means some 'deus ex machina' gives him a victory. Something unusual. However, he does not ALSO get the three crits. So, he should still take the total damage he took.
And I'm
offering a deus-ex-machina that already fits with where the plot is headed after Tharkad's destruction and the ensuing chaos generated thereby. What commander in their right mind is going to fight a foreign war when there is a civil war brewing over at home?
He has the instant win
He keeps the territory
He takes his lumps and can rebuild if he so chooses.
OK, my break is about to end so I don't have time to go back and check the thread.
I noted something about negating 95% of the damage the Falcons took. The "12-crit instant win" only protects 10% of the defenders. Did the first 5% of the Lyran damage really wipe out all the defenders?
Either way, if the LC is fine with letting the 12 stand, so am I. We can work out the exact resolution in a way that everyone is happy with soon.
Also... um... yeah... 416th Commonwealth Guards (and indeed and of the so-called Commonwealth Guards). Probably gonna be having a change in their chain of command soon. Working it into the fluff from Baker 3 would be a neat RP hook.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on June 22, 2010, 07:55:18 PM
OK, my break is about to end so I don't have time to go back and check the thread.
I noted something about negating 95% of the damage the Falcons took. The "12-crit instant win" only protects 10% of the defenders. Did the first 5% of the Lyran damage really wipe out all the defenders?
Either way, if the LC is fine with letting the 12 stand, so am I. We can work out the exact resolution in a way that everyone is happy with soon.
Also... um... yeah... 416th Commonwealth Guards (and indeed and of the so-called Commonwealth Guards). Probably gonna be having a change in their chain of command soon. Working it into the fluff from Baker 3 would be a neat RP hook.
it was a pretty nasty case of over-kill in spite of a remarkably average roll on my part. I'm good with letting up to 15% of the Falcon force survive with gear-intact, and inflict not only the instant-win, but also take three extra crits against the Lyrans in this situation, since it would give the Falcons something really awesome to brag to the other Clans over (Ripping a victory from the jaws of certain defeat-AFTER taking horrific losses against a vastly more powerful foe is ALWAYS good fodder for Rememberances and perusing the Clan IC threads, the Falcons need the Propoganda boost among the others, I think this might do that-but only if he is allowed to keep the world, and actually TAKES the horrific casualties.)
In-Character, driving off a force that size, with that much firepower, after taking heavy losses is something to make the unit as it is rebuilt drive to be truly the best, hardest men in the Touman-it raises the bar and creates legends that stand head and shoulders over their peers.
(also,I want the arguing to bloody stop, but I won't nerf my damage to do it, not even for someone I consider to be potentially really cool to game with.)
According to the rules...
Quote
12 three critical events should be rolled or victory declared with the defender retreating*
*choice of player who rolls the critical event, if forcing retreat is called then a minimum of 10% of this players forces survive, after calculating that turns damage.
The Falcons are only guaranteed 10% of their force surviving if they take the "declare victory" option... so I think that will satisfy your desire for no more than 15% of the Falcon force to live and possibly even exceed it.
Also, Cannonshop, +1 for being a good sport with regard to this whole situation.
Dave, the way the rule is worded, it states that the 'defender' retains a minimum of 10% of his forces...i believe the rule is protecting the person being forced to retreat. That would be the only way the rule makes sense. It doesnt protect the person forcing the retreat.
So if the damage goes through, then my Falcons are more or less wiped out. But i don't understand the raid table or salvage part of what Cannonshop said? Dont see what the raid table has to do with anything, but whatever the salvage generated is, its going to the Falcons.
And from the three criticals i rolled, instead of the 15% that Cannon allowed to live it'll go upto 25% because of the twin 5% less damage.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
Dave, the way the rule is worded, it states that the 'defender' retains a minimum of 10% of his forces...i believe the rule is protecting the person being forced to retreat.
That's not how either Dave or I read it. I'll grant you that the language is ambiguous, but the obvious way to read it is that 'player who rolled the critical event' and 'this player' are the same player while the 'defender' is the player the crit was rolled against. This rule could stand to be reworded, because it is ambiguous and potentially confusing, but I'm convinced this was the original intent.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
That would be the only way the rule makes sense.
Rules don't necessarily make sense, though in this case it does -- the surviving force would need something to hold the field with. It's unlikely their opponents retreated from their imaginations.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
So if the damage goes through, then my Falcons are more or less wiped out.
Except the minimum 10%mandated by the rules (which also mandate that the damage goes through.)
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
But i don't understand the raid table or salvage part of what Cannonshop said? Dont see what the raid table has to do with anything, but whatever the salvage generated is, its going to the Falcons.
I'll admit that I didn't quite catch it either. He seemed to be suggesting that if your force was wiped out, you could re-build it based on salvage from the raid-salvage table, but I'm not sure where the rules would allow that. Cool idea though.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
And from the three criticals i rolled, instead of the 15% that Cannon allowed to live it'll go upto 25% because of the twin 5% less damage.
The rules are pretty clear that it's an OR. Cannonshop might be totally cool with you also rolling three crits, but I'm not sure I am. The rules are actually fairly clear here, and we should be as consistent as possible in their application.
I'm not really sure how what you said contradicts what i said about the 10% Jedi...the minimum 10% rule, i would think it applys to the retreating force: after all, if you kill everything, theres nobody to retreat. You dont seem to be disagreeing with your explaination, although you implied it with your first comment.
I wasn't planning on rolling the crits, I know its an OR situation. So does Cannon. But he said to do it anyway for what i assume is dramatic effect for the RP, as he is hooking the retrat from Baker 3 into what ammounts to a total recall order for the battlegroup because of Tharkad. He is going to have to be careful with his route however: he is totally boxed in by Clan worlds, and there are definetly some big Clan fleet elements floating around out there.
Quote from: JediBear on June 23, 2010, 12:46:25 PM
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
Dave, the way the rule is worded, it states that the 'defender' retains a minimum of 10% of his forces...i believe the rule is protecting the person being forced to retreat.
That's not how either Dave or I read it. I'll grant you that the language is ambiguous, but the obvious way to read it is that 'player who rolled the critical event' and 'this player' are the same player while the 'defender' is the player the crit was rolled against. This rule could stand to be reworded, because it is ambiguous and potentially confusing, but I'm convinced this was the original intent.
The language probably needs to be clarified. "This player" is the individual referred to earlier in the sentence; i.e. "the player who rolled the event." The "defender" referenced earlier (before the asterisk) is the player on the 'receiving end' of the critical event, whereas the "attacker" would bet he palyer who rolled the event. The forced withdrawal rule's damage ceiling is intended to protect the winner, not the victim.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
That would be the only way the rule makes sense.
Rules don't necessarily make sense, though in this case it does -- the surviving force would need something to hold the field with. It's unlikely their opponents retreated from their imaginations.
JediBear is 100% correct on the intention of the rule. When the 10% clause is not applied, we get clusters of fun like the CSA vs. WIE fight on New Kerensky a few turns ago.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
So if the damage goes through, then my Falcons are more or less wiped out.
Except the minimum 10%mandated by the rules (which also mandate that the damage goes through.)
JediBear is correct in this statement.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
But i don't understand the raid table or salvage part of what Cannonshop said? Dont see what the raid table has to do with anything, but whatever the salvage generated is, its going to the Falcons.
I'll admit that I didn't quite catch it either. He seemed to be suggesting that if your force was wiped out, you could re-build it based on salvage from the raid-salvage table, but I'm not sure where the rules would allow that. Cool idea though.
Without digging back through the thread (which, being at work I can't do before my break runs out) I can't say for sure... CS can probably elaborate though.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
And from the three criticals i rolled, instead of the 15% that Cannon allowed to live it'll go upto 25% because of the twin 5% less damage.
The rules are pretty clear that it's an OR. Cannonshop might be totally cool with you also rolling three crits, but I'm not sure I am. The rules are actually fairly clear here, and we should be as consistent as possible in their application.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 01:11:49 PM
I'm not really sure how what you said contradicts what i said about the 10% Jedi...the minimum 10% rule, i would think it applys to the retreating force: after all, if you kill everything, theres nobody to retreat. You dont seem to be disagreeing with your explaination, although you implied it with your first comment.
Just to reiterate what I wrote in response to Jedibear, the retreating force does not benefit from damage protection. The damage protection is for "the player who rolled the critical event."
I wasn't planning on rolling the crits, I know its an OR situation. So does Cannon. But he said to do it anyway for what i assume is dramatic effect for the RP, as he is hooking the retrat from Baker 3 into what ammounts to a total recall order for the battlegroup because of Tharkad. He is going to have to be careful with his route however: he is totally boxed in by Clan worlds, and there are definetly some big Clan fleet elements floating around out there.
Ok. atleast now i'm sure. shows me to go off trying to interpert the rules myself :P
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 23, 2010, 01:15:48 PM
((I just wanted to add, that i love the double 'for enemy' crits...atleast the right side got the good crit check :P))
Yeah...I liked that one as well. :D
Question for the masses...
There is apparently 1x SY and 1x MF at Alpheratz in the Horse Alliance (nee Outworlds Alliance) region and which are Guest Facilities. Does anyone know who they actually belong to?
I'm thinking nationalisation if no-one claims them (with the appropriate proof), however would sooner find out who owns them.
cheers
I believe that the Marians are the ones running those facilities.
Quote from: Parmenion on June 24, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
Question for the masses...
There is apparently 1x SY and 1x MF at Alpheratz in the Horse Alliance (nee Outworlds Alliance) region and which are Guest Facilities. Does anyone know who they actually belong to?
I'm thinking nationalisation if no-one claims them (with the appropriate proof), however would sooner find out who owns them.
cheers
Quote from: Parmenion on June 24, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
Question for the masses...
There is apparently 1x SY and 1x MF at Alpheratz in the Horse Alliance (nee Outworlds Alliance) region and which are Guest Facilities. Does anyone know who they actually belong to?
I'm thinking nationalisation if no-one claims them (with the appropriate proof), however would sooner find out who owns them.
I'll double check GreyWolfActual's backorders, but I'm fairly certain the SY is Marian. I'll get back to you.I see what happened here. Those were in exchange for the two guest facilities on Pompey. We'll work it out.
Exactly what is a Horse Alliance and when did that happen? I've been looking for relevant RP and I can't find any. You'd think such a counterintuitive move should have been heralded by something. When did this happen? Genuinely interested as a former Outworlds player who was looking into joining up again.
Yarp. And when will the other Clans find out?
Well, the RP leading up to this has been going on for a long time I've heard about angst over the Alliance possibly working with the Horses for some time. As a Clanner I shall continue of course call this the "Hell's Alliance" but just because, it's just such a better name, <<snickers>> I'm sure the Omniss will love it.
You can see some hints of it in the old RP thread, with Horse envoys comming and going, and some off hand comments here and there, but I think the bulk of negotiations were likely done by PMs and IMs (in accordance with the rules for these things at the time, of course). I know it was pretty much in the works during my time there, and it was an action that my cherictors were reacting to IC in their actions (trying to demonstrate that the OA can grow a strong, domestic ground force).
Welshman at one time was going to start posting old PMs of secret deals he'd done, so that there was a bit of transperancy. Say what you will about his tenure in general, but I do think that was a promacing idea, and its something for many factions to consider, once the need for secracy is gone. Naturaly, no one would expect a faction to be public about "Hey, let's nuke Tharkad!" "Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I'll provide the nukes, and you handle the spec ops work." "Deal!" Of course not. But a year or two later, it would be lovely to see.
declassifying past ops or communication happens all the time irl. No reason why it shouldn't happen here.
Actually, this goes WAAAAAY back. The Horses arrived in the OA early on and then were run out by the Dracs and Feddies, either through force or threat.
Nonetheless, it is an odd pairing. Unions previously established in the fiction had some kind of cultural link, such as the shared Norse influences of the Rasalhague Dominion or the mutual aerospace culture of the Ravens and the Outworlds. A team up of mere convenience doesn't bode well for a long term relationship, so hopefully this is more than an awkward link between exceptional ground and aerospace forces from wildly different factions.
The Hell Horses and the Outworlds Alliance are so different that its difficult to imagine how combining the two into one political entity can be successful. It's already been described in the chambers of the Star League as Hell's Alliance, and this might prove to be the more fitting name, as the two factions have no identifiable common ground. I'm also interested in how the faction leaders worked out the details of their new government. I'm curious as to how it is expected to work.
A few things here.
One, the Horses are probably a hell of a lot more compatible on a long-term basis with the Outworlds Alliance than most any other Clan out there, considering that the Horses canonically have attitudes towards freebirths that goes past "tolerance" to "respect", and they work better with their lower castes than almost any other Clan does, which I'm sure the Outworlders would appreciate. I really don't see how they have no common ground to stand on... especially since the Ravens have WAY less "common ground" with the Outworlders than the Horses. (And no, a "mutual aerospace culture" isn't "common ground"... and it's not even really all that accurate, either.)
Two, it doesn't really matter what everyone ELSE thinks that the merger should be called. Parm has already given it a name, and I think it's rather rude and presumptuous for people to try to change that name for him. He's put in a looooooot of work RP-wise to make this happen, and people should try to respect that, even if they prefer "Hell's Alliance" to "Horse Alliance". That name really makes no sense, either, since by that standard, the canonical Raven-OA merger should be called the "Snow Alliance", right? But no, just like the Raven Alliance did, Parm has placed the totem root word in the name, and that makes much more sense.
Quote from: Fatebringer on June 24, 2010, 06:11:10 PM
Well, the RP leading up to this has been going on for a long time
The Horses trying to make moves on the OWA goes back to my time as a player, but back then, the OWA's positions were:
Clanners? Hell no!
Star League? Hell no!
Agressive military alliance of periphery nations? Hell no!
I'm a touch distressed that all of those were reversed so completely in so short a time.
I'm half-tempted to try to join up just so I can role-play widespread protests. And bombings.
You have to understand, the Horses are the
direct antithesis of the OWA. And I'm not just saying that as a Ghost Bear. I kinda like the Horses OOC.
And then there's the fact that, other than the Star League discussing it, there's been no real direct evidence that this major political shift has happened.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 01:36:11 AM
A few things here.
One, the Horses are probably a hell of a lot more compatible on a long-term basis with the Outworlds Alliance than most any other Clan out there, considering that the Horses canonically have attitudes towards freebirths that goes past "tolerance" to "respect", and they work better with their lower castes than almost any other Clan does, which I'm sure the Outworlders would appreciate.
That's neither entirely true nor saying much. It's not saying much because the war-focused culture of the Clans is anathema to the people of the Outworlds Alliance. They'd no sooner stand for it than sell themselves into slavery, prostitute their daughters, or murder their neighbors. Outworlders feel very strongly about things like these and Clanners celebrate everything they despise.
It's also not entirely true because there are several Clans with a greater cultural affinity with the OWA than the Horses enjoy. The Horses might respect their lower castes (note: not a common quality. The OWA isn't much on respecting people whose job/lifestyle differs. Far from tolerant, they're frequently out-and-out bigots, even where their own military is concerned,) but they could never understand the Omniss like a Cloud Cobra.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 01:36:11 AM
I really don't see how they have no common ground to stand on... especially since the Ravens have WAY less "common ground" with the Outworlders than the Horses. (And no, a "mutual aerospace culture" isn't "common ground"... and it's not even really all that accurate, either.)
A common military style isn't much to go on, but it's at least something, and not the "you celebrate everything I despise" that defines the relationship between the OWA and the Horses going both ways.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 01:36:11 AM
Two, it doesn't really matter what everyone ELSE thinks that the merger should be called. Parm has already given it a name, and I think it's rather rude and presumptuous for people to try to change that name for him.
It has an official name. And other people get to call it whatever they want.
Like "Clan Camel" "Horse Alliance" is a goofy name, and people are going to mock it IC.
Quote from: JediBear on June 25, 2010, 01:51:03 AM
That's neither entirely true nor saying much. It's not saying much because the war-focused culture of the Clans is anathema to the people of the Outworlds Alliance. They'd no sooner stand for it than sell themselves into slavery, prostitute their daughters, or murder their neighbors. Outworlders feel very strongly about things like these and Clanners celebrate everything they despise.
And yet the Raven Alliance stands. So this really doesn't matter much, because TPTB obviously don't agree with you on this point.
QuoteIt's also not entirely true because there are several Clans with a greater cultural affinity with the OWA than the Horses enjoy.The Horses might respect their lower castes (note: not a common quality. The OWA isn't much on respecting people whose job/lifestyle differs. Far from tolerant, they're frequently out-and-out bigots, even where their own military is concerned,) but they could never understand the Omniss like a Cloud Cobra.
Again, given the Raven Alliance's existence, this really doesn't matter. And just because the Cobras might understand the Omniss (which is debatable; they might be the "religion Clan", but that doesn't mean the high-tech Cobras and the tech-hating Omniss are more inclined to get along) doesn't mean that they're a better fit for the Outworlds. And it's a moot point, anyway, since the Cobras no longer exist in the FGC.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 01:36:11 AM
A common military style isn't much to go on, but it's at least something, and not the "you celebrate everything I despise" that defines the relationship between the OWA and the Horses going both ways.
And other than the shared aerospace preferences (which is again debatable, since the Ravens favor naval assets more than aerospace assets), the Ravens are just as compatible with the Outworlders as the Horses are. Less so, actually, since as I stated, the Horses look upon non-warriors better than the Ravens do.
QuoteIt has an official name. And other people get to call it whatever they want.
Of course they can. People can always feel free to be asshats. :)
Hey, the TC has been approached by 3 clans. My polite answer has always been no.
In my mind, well, the TC was the first clan - just it took the SL to hold us down. ;D
LOL, and what Clan were you, Clan Paranoid Bull? :P
thanks for the idea TK
I hereby nominate the Taurian Concordant for membership amongst the Clans, and christen them Clan Diorite* Bull
*diorite is a stone where only diamond is harder apparently
Mine was funnier. :P
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 04:42:38 AM
Mine was funnier. :P
true, but I went that extra distance and got a tad more creative
Quote from: GraeGor on June 25, 2010, 04:45:49 AM
true, but I went that extra distance and got a tad more creative
There really is such a thing as being too creative. Just an FYI.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 04:47:08 AM
Quote from: GraeGor on June 25, 2010, 04:45:49 AM
true, but I went that extra distance and got a tad more creative
There really is such a thing as being too creative. Just an FYI.
really...guess I have reached that point yet....lol
Heh. That's debatable. (I mean, really, Charlemagne Steiner? You can do better than a bastardized Alaric rip-off.)
Clan Diorite Bull?
If I was going to go that far, then I'd go Clan Lonsdaleite Toro - Lonsdaleite is harder than diamond, and natural too - unfortunately it gets formed normally only in meteor impacts... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah, you two should stick to florid RPing and leave the comedy to people who are actually funny. :P
When that funny person joins the convo, we can let them come up with a new clan name.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 04:55:39 AM
Heh. That's debatable. (I mean, really, Charlemagne Steiner? You can do better than a bastardized Alaric rip-off.)
well I had first considered a different name, Constantine, but felt that name was to closely tied to the Roman Empire (and therefore more appropriate to the Marians), so I went with Charlamagne
and to be honest I hadnt even consdiered it as an Alaric rip-off (as Im not that familiar with the Dark Age and the characters in it), I went with a more historical rip-off....specifically, Charlamagne (Ive seen both spellings) ala the Holy Roman Empire
I'd say "you would me, sir", but I'd be lying. :P
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 05:23:44 AM
I'd say "you would wound me, sir", but I'd be lying. :P
fixed ;)
Be careful. You are in a faction with me, and if you try to go around fixing all the spelling errors you see, you'll not have time for anything else ;)
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on June 25, 2010, 05:54:23 AM
Be careful. You are in a faction with me, and if you try to go around fixing all the spelling errors you see, you'll not have time for anything else ;)
I gave up paying to close attention to yours long before you joined the A-Team....the process was giving me migraines
that and I treasure my insanity to much to lose it
Probably for the best. If you were sane, you'd realize that you'd been working with me and Dis all this time ;D
and we're all working for the bird aliens from Far Country
Quote from: GraeGor on June 25, 2010, 05:58:16 AM
that and I treasure my insanity to too much to lose it
;)
And don't get me started on your lack of capitalization/punctuation, either.
Believe me when I say that I can out-asshat you in this department. ;)
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 25, 2010, 01:58:11 AM
Quote from: JediBear on June 25, 2010, 01:51:03 AM
That's neither entirely true nor saying much. It's not saying much because the war-focused culture of the Clans is anathema to the people of the Outworlds Alliance. They'd no sooner stand for it than sell themselves into slavery, prostitute their daughters, or murder their neighbors. Outworlders feel very strongly about things like these and Clanners celebrate everything they despise.
And yet the Raven Alliance stands. So this really doesn't matter much, because TPTB obviously don't agree with you on this point.
Horse Alliance does not follow from Raven Alliance. Again, the "more compatible" bit is highly debatable, and whatever odd conditions lead to the Raven Alliance in canon certainly weren't present here.
I'm not saying it can't happen or should be stopped. I'm saying it's damned peculiar and it shouldn't work very well.
Yeah, and ComStar, WoB, and the Dragoons should have had enough mutual antipathy that forming the Core Alliance/Terran Hegemony would also be considered canonically impossible and should have fallen to internal squabbling after about two turns.
But this is the FGC, where (almost) anything goes. I mean, we have an elf for a First Lord for crying out loud.
Quote from: DXM on June 25, 2010, 10:59:56 AM
But this is the FGC, where (almost) anything goes. I mean, we have an elf for a First Lord for crying out loud.
Wait, you mean we're using
BattleRun rules? That definitely has an impact on the geopolitical landscape. It also explains the trolls. ;)
Of note to all who may want to participate in the vote for a new SLDF CG.
I had suggested to the GMs that Andrew Redburn would be the acting CG while Victor is gone. Even emailed WM briefly on this, and he confirmed that from his viewpoint, Redburn would have been the senior divisional commander, so a natural stand-in.
While it would be highly amusing to actually have DeSummersVille as the acting CG, and I see it's allready tickled some funnybones (in fact, I'm laughing my arse off), the guy was only a regimental commander a couple of years ago, and has only commanded a brigade.
This cycles SLDF orders have only ever been to realign the force to current events, since those who were supposed to do them since the C37 orders, never did. C41 should see a bit more of a positive deployment by them.
Fatebringer, not trying to spoil your fun on Biota, but I have to ask how losses of .75 FP could amount to .25 of Damage control?
Just checkin'.
I would really love to get more RP done in the Game, but I cant.. thats kinda sad. Hope to get a GC talk in, though..
And Deathrider: Seems the Lyrans will be back.. Cant say I look forward to see my small Clan shattered by your forces. :-\
But welcome back.
My bad :P I looked at the wrong side :P Thanks for the info. Will update.
Sorry, fella. :)
Question...
Who else, besides the Exiles, can produce the Viking IIc? Since it involves a new technology, someone would have had to have developed that to make them. Since it is clantech, IS nations can't produce the mech. Someone mentioned that the RD figured out how to produce it...
Yeah, there was discussion of that. RasDom did it. I am quite sure. However, I still dont know the version at all.. as I have one, who can tell me?
RasDom did a Viking, but I didn't think it was the IIc. The IIc is the one with Streak LRMs.
Hnm. Ok. No clue then.
As far as I know, only the WIE produces the VKG-4F/Viking IIC
The RasDom produces the VKG-4O "Viking IV" but that is not the same 'Mech.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on June 25, 2010, 07:03:41 PM
As far as I know, only the WIE produces the VKG-4F/Viking IIC
The RasDom produces the VKG-4O "Viking IV" but that is not the same 'Mech.
Given this, I would ask that those who believe they can produce the IIC/4F to follow up with the GMs and explain how. There is technology that would have to be 'stolen' or found and of course having a new mech design.
If the Star League starts allowing duels to be declared during its sessions, it'll never get anything done. Pretty soon it'll start looking like the Clan Grand Council. :D
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 25, 2010, 07:09:11 PM
If the Star League starts allowing duels to be declared during its sessions, it'll never get anything done. Pretty soon it'll start looking like the Clan Grand Council. :D
Getting nothing done...Will this be a change?
As Helm point out, the GC will start looking like it!
This is far from the first challange, by the way. I don't know how many of them have been fought out, but Peter Steiner and Emma C. had a dual scheduled at one point. I think that was the most high profile.
But in the FGC, and to a lesser degree in canon, its always looked a bit like this. The SL can never agree on anything.
Re the survival rolls of the navies at New Kent...OUCH
Actually, we wanted to fail a lot of them. With that much damage, if only two ships failed, they would die. With 9 ships failing, the damage is spread out enough that all live.
OOOH!
For the fun at the Star League...
Janice Calderon had to learn to use a BA as part of her general PT per my posts, and I then hinted that she took if farther (and have in her "life path") - I wonder if she can get someone to challange her and she gets to pick the method of battle... ;D
BTW - anyone remember when the next election (turn wise) will be moving up? Also, when will our MP be refilled? I forget these things I must admit. :-[
MP refill on Turn 44
Thank goodness. Ever since I realized IC (not OOC) that things were going to turn into a reinactment of the Star Kingdom - Havenite war I've been... well, my turn based MP is approaching my stored MP, and if I didn't have to do certain actions, I would exceed it soon enough. ;D
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on June 25, 2010, 07:16:04 PM
As Helm point out, the GC will start looking like it!
This is far from the first challange, by the way. I don't know how many of them have been fought out, but Peter Steiner and Emma C. had a dual scheduled at one point. I think that was the most high profile.
But in the FGC, and to a lesser degree in canon, its always looked a bit like this. The SL can never agree on anything.
You've been playing this game for far too long IM. But yes, you are correct... and as an added footnote, Peter Steiner wimped out of the Battlemech duel on Tharkad.
I probably have. When I started, I was a kid in highschool. Now, I'm a father and a working man. This is my third itteration of the FGC, and when the new one back on CBT starts, it will be my fourth. But I'm hooked, and I don't plan to stop now.
When will the 41 Map thread be opened?
I am going to go out on a limb here and say....Later. :-*
QuoteEverett Reynolds, President of Parlaiment, Australia
**shudder**
The least you could have done, CS, is ensure that the head of Australia is a Prime Minister. Your offending my anti-republican genes ;)
Yep it's gonna be a bumpy ride...whoda thunk it Bobby K-S putting his interests on the back burner.
On the Wolf merger, I am looking at some RP, but need to get a couple of things done first.
1 - Can the vote for Marco Hall as SLDF Commander be posted and completed?
2 - I need to speak with silentwarrior and figure out the rest of this. :)
So, hopefully, this can happen before anything delves too deep in the RP world.
Quote from: NVA on June 28, 2010, 04:43:25 PM
On the Wolf merger, I am looking at some RP, but need to get a couple of things done first.
1 - Can the vote for Marco Hall as SLDF Commander be posted and completed?
2 - I need to speak with silentwarrior and figure out the rest of this. :)
So, hopefully, this can happen before anything delves too deep in the RP world.
Will there be a public announcement of the merger? (if so, Deb's going to include a congratulatory message when she responds...)
Yes. That is part of what I want to make sure I can form correctly...
Well, the merger isn't as simple as you 2 getting together and now you're the faction leader and he is under you. Its a bit more complicated than that. I wouldn't just assume that everyone is golden and that you've got total control over the whole of both the actual Clan Wolf and your Exiles
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 28, 2010, 09:57:35 PM
Well, the merger isn't as simple as you 2 getting together and now you're the faction leader and he is under you. Its a bit more complicated than that. I wouldn't just assume that everyone is golden and that you've got total control over the whole of both the actual Clan Wolf and your Exiles
Essentially, that is what we have going on. Now, 100%...No. And we will RP out more. But, considering the trial was for leadership of teh united Wolf and validation of the victors methods...
We just proved Vlad was wrong, in short.
And just because you conduct a Trial, doesnt mean thats the end of it don't forget. Besides, you've essentially just decided to remove Clan Wolf from among the ranks of the Clans, considering that you're a member of the Star Leauge...which spells the end of the Wolves in the GC unless i'm missing something.
Either way, I wouldn't get too settled untill you've gone through the inevitable Trial of Refusal and whatnot.
Quote from: Daemonknight on June 28, 2010, 09:57:35 PM
Well, the merger isn't as simple as you 2 getting together and now you're the faction leader and he is under you. Its a bit more complicated than that. I wouldn't just assume that everyone is golden and that you've got total control over the whole of both the actual Clan Wolf and your Exiles
If i had a dollar for everytime someone takes over a faction be it through IC or OCC methods and does a 180.
im pretty sure the Falcons did that under me, didn't they? :P
Not really, you've been on the same path pretty much.
I think the biggest example was the RD.
Quote from: Fatebringer on June 28, 2010, 11:07:42 PM
Not really, you've been on the same path pretty much.
I think the biggest example was the RD.
::looks innocent::
>:( <<Glares>> What did you tell that Freebirth to do!?!? :o
I think Holt would probably have about $40, give or take. Not half bad. Though that's counts some lesser, 90 degree turns, in addition to the several really significant changes, and counts changes that did infact make sense IC.
Anyway... it is the might makes right Clans, so its not as rediculious as it would probably seem, and there has sometimes (the Wolves have been one of the most schizophrenic Clans, due to very freequent leadership changes) been a very good repore between the two sides, with some degree of fraternization. Its not a huge streatch to imagine them looking at a victorious group that has the same traditions, the same blood names, and even few friends on their side of the fence, and seeing that it might be a fairly painless transition.
Or it might not. Its really hard to say what is right for the Wolves at any given moment. That why we need to wait and see the RP about this. Which Wolves showed up today? Where are they comming from as far as their point of view?
As to being part of the SL or the GC... the only known statment so far is that they have reunited in the guise of the Exiles, as SL members. But, would it be beneath the Wolves to say that to the Terrans, and say something else to the GC? I think not. If just lieing could keep a massive invasion off my capitol, I'd lie all the damn time (in the FWL, I often did). Again, let's see the RP here.
I for my part am excited. Noe's always been a strong RPer, someone with a good understanding of his faction built up over four years of playing this game, so I trust that things will all shake out right, and we'll see a very intrsting story of how this is to unfold.
Though don't be supprised when we don't buy it IC and jump all over you, just because we think we can get away with it.
As for the name Lan... all the Lan's I know are girls... just FYI
lol
Hey, it's a good vietnamese name. Lan Nghien's seen as a traitor on his homeworld of Kowloon as a result of his defection-his family's disowned him and everything-his action is viewed as an act of surrender and betrayal.
The name itself refers to a fictitious quadrupedal animal with a horn-a kind of analogue to a unicorn (In Viet), "Fence" (as in the thing you put up to keep a neighbour a good neighbour) in Chinese, and it's also a traditional male name in Hebrew-(I have no idea what the meaning is...)
He was a Marine NCO aboard the LAS Antwort, and was captured during the joint Clans' defense of Somerset/Addergrad in C 26. The other survivor of note from that is his ex-fiance' Giao Pham, a Kowloonese "Rockjack" who was the CPO in charge of the 2nd Shift Jumpgang (KF Systems crew, engineering, you know, 'snipes'). Unlike her ex, Giao fought for, and WON her freedom through single-combat with a Clan Warrior under Clan terms of honour. (Hint: don't get into a zero-gee fistfight with a zero-gee martial artist, unless you ARE one!)
Apparently, Lan's Career with the Star Adders has been largely comprised of assisting them in developing their 'black bag' operations-which is not so unlikely, since his prior career before being recalled to active service was as an investigation specialist with the Organized Crime Bureau of the Kowloon Coast Guard, an agency focused on a planetary/regional scale doing many of the same jobs LIC would do-if they were really bored and felt like chasing down the paper-trail and fences in the Black Market to find Pirates, Bandits, Serial killers and the like...naturally, his assignment as a door-kicker on the Antwort was a complete waste of a good investigator, but the Coast Guard is technically Lyran Naval reserve, not LIC reserve, so there you are... his MILITARY occupational specialty was "Shipboard Infantry" (All Marines are Infantry, some just fly fighters or drive tanks instead.)
Quote from: NVA on June 28, 2010, 10:00:20 PM
But, considering the trial was for leadership of teh united Wolf and validation of the victors methods...
Interestingly, that makes it kind of a Trial of Whatever. A Trial of Grievance could be used to "prove Vlad wrong" as you say, and a Trial of Posession could unite all the assets of the former Clan Wolf into one house or another, but no form of Trial can decide the leadership of a Clan and the idea of using a unilateral Trial of Posession to create a de-facto Absorption and withdraw an entire Clan from the GC is legally dubious.
As the GL, I can't help but come to the conclusion that this Trial was illegal and a defiance of the Clan Way that demonstrates either an ignorance bordering on heresy or outright heresy. And the latter case would make the Trial unnecessary.
Does the unified Clan Wolf intend to send representatives to the Grand Council?
As soon as word reaches the GC, the Trial is essentially going to be shot down, and the true Clan Wolf is going to be informed that they are in no way united with the exiles. Thats why i say i wouldn't be getting super comfy. And iits going to have to get back to the GC eventually, if only to get all the HW wolf forces to head back to the IS...and then it'll get out that the trial was illegal, doesnt actually count whatnot, and the true Wolves get their own fate back, and the Exiles get super-angry that their attempted coup didn't work
There's another way to approach this, guys...
If the GC recognizes the absorption, potentially that puts a GC member in command of the SLDF, the conflict among the IS powers may be enough to pry the exiles out of the IS camp and place them, and all the information, contacts, contracts, etc. at their disposal...at the disposal of the Grand Council. (Citing the example of what happened with the RD over the last ten cycles or so...)
There are significant in-character benefits for dragging these folks back into the fold, including the ability to turn the SLDF itself against the Terrans, reclaiming the mantle of the SLDF from the "Traitor Lords" and there are public relations boons that can make conquest and occupation activities much, much easier.
Further, there are likely members of the Exiles whose initial love-affair with the IS has been soured by dealing with the local politics (ask NVA in OOC what kind of screwing his clan's gotten in their dealings with the Lyrans, for instance), Prodigals can be the most fanatical of all when they've returned (human nature that), so there are benefits to viewing this from the opposite side of things.
Exactly. And the Clans took the Nova Cats back, albeit in a slightly modified form, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that the Exiles would be welcomed back... especially since, as Cannonshop has pointed out, they could very well have something that the Clans need: intelligence.
So, Tassa, are you saying the Clans lack intelligence??
:D
Thats so mean.. ;D
Considering my position (and the really SCARY position I'll be in when C41 starts) I should NOT be giving you guys strategic advice-particularly not advice that makes your job easier, but I can't resist pointing out the obvious (okay,it's only obvious to ME..and Tassa...and a few others...), esp. since I'm going to be trying to survive as a mini-micro statelet with no shipyard, few factories (okay, one factory that is "Mine"), and limited trade options that include at least one predator who's saving me to eat later... and I'll probably have to really dance the diplomat dance hard not to get ROFLStomped (Deathrider6's word-I guess it originates in one of those MMORPG's I keep reading about...) before I get to go do something really, really, ill-advised on my own (well, besides forming a faction out of seven hexes right on the 'corner' of a couple major war-zones being fought over by titans who blow my whole future RP budget on office-supplies for their naval reserve contingent...)
It'll just be fun if I can find a way to wind a course between the feet of all these titans around me without getting stomped flat, absorbed, conquered, nuked, wiped out, or crushed.
Quote from: tassa_kay on June 29, 2010, 09:09:27 AM
Exactly. And the Clans took the Nova Cats back, albeit in a slightly modified form, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that the Exiles would be welcomed back... especially since, as Cannonshop has pointed out, they could very well have something that the Clans need: intelligence.
well, the Adder Khan has stated on several occasions that the only way they'd ever view the Exiles as Clan would be for them to either petition for acceptance directly, or merge with another Clan....and they have done just that
So while it will likely irk more than a few within the Adders, odds are they'll accept it...though they will probably tell them the same thing that the SLHC will: pick one side or the other and live with the consequences of that decision
Lan has overcome quite a bit to get where he is, and has had a huge role in getting the Adder SpecOp where it is. Off camera (ie, stuff I havent actually written out) has developed a training regimen for Adder Watch Field Operatives that makes Clan Boot Camp look easy by comparison (it has a higher "death by training accident" ratio by nearly 3 to 1)
It's believed that he'll replace Cassius as the Adder's ISIA one day
My posts are based on the assumption that the Exiles are an IS nation by choice. They have never attempted to contact the GC for re-integration while i have been here, and i've not heard anything about it every being attempted before my time. If that were to happen, I would think hard on it, but i have serious doubts about that being the course of action that NVA is going to take. And i would love to be proven wrong here, because it could be a huge boon to the Clan cause to have a united Clan Wolf fighting FOR the Clans(although the SLDF will not actually attack the IS nations, being that the SLDF is made up of House military forces).
Would I like to see the Exiles come back into the fold, with all their operational intelligence, military and political secrets, and whatnot? Abso-damn-lutely! Do i expect that to happen? Not at all.
I will be watching the RP threads carefully. If the Exiles try and break away the true Wolves from the GC, then i'll jump at the chance to invalidate their Trial. Theres no way that Diana is going to sit back and let an entire Clan be taken by a shady half-Trial without a fight.
Well, Diana invalidating the trial won't really mean much. One, she is a Falcon. Two, she is a Falcon. Three, the Wolves never really cared what others thought in that regards. As has been stated, the clans believe in Might makes right. They don't cower behind political trickery. The Exiles have defeated the other Wolves. They defeated their Khan. The other Wolves had been using political and trickery to avoid fights not to their advantage. I believe a rank and file warrior would have been questioning their clan leadership. Now, the Exiles have come along and said 'We have been doing it this way and we believe we are stronger than you. We will prove we are right in combat and then lead a unified Wolf.' Remember, this is not two seperate clans. It is two groups claiming to be the same group. Will it be clean and perfect? No. Not at all. Do I expect trouble on both sides? I would be stupid to consider elsewise. So, the Spider Keshik just validated Ulric and Phelan.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
There's another way to approach this, guys...
Not exactly.
I mean, yes, there are a lot of other ways to go about it, but only one (aside details of implementation) that's legally and morally consistent with the Way of the Clans.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
If the GC recognizes the absorption, potentially that puts a GC member in command of the SLDF,
Actually, it puts persons of dubious loyalty in the GC. Seating Marco Hall in the GC won't change who he is. We have little interest in the so-called SLDF, and are quite content destroying it rather than owning it.
In this FGC, the GC has been prevented by GM fiat from even considering the legality of the original Abjuration, and so the Exiles have stood Abjured throughout.
Meanwhile, the Exiles have shown little interest in rapprochement, and this move is directly aimed at sabotaging the GC's war effort.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
the conflict among the IS powers may be enough to pry the exiles out of the IS camp and place them, and all the information, contacts, contracts, etc. at their disposal...at the disposal of the Grand Council. (Citing the example of what happened with the RD over the last ten cycles or so...)
Had I not intervened, the RD would have continued down its current path as a TH sympathizer covertly working with the DC (and through it the Star League) and denying all assistance to the GC. We might get the Wolves booted from the SL, but putting their resources at our disposal would be something else entirely. Nevertheless, that was the beginning of the aim of my question of whether the Exiles even intended to send representation (to which they are not entitled) to the GC.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
There are significant in-character benefits for dragging these folks back into the fold,
True, but this isn't the way to go about it. (Had the GC Wolves won, I wouldn't have said word one about it. It's still a Trial of Whatever but...yeah. Whatever.) The Exiles had to win. In so doing, they made their bed.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
including the ability to turn the SLDF itself against the Terrans,
If the RD's complaint to the SLDF does not achieve this result, it is singularly unlikely that letting Exiles into the GC would.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
reclaiming the mantle of the SLDF from the "Traitor Lords"
From our perspective, we are still the SLDF, and we have no need to infiltrate an organization of pretenders to reclaim its mantle. We would far rather Annihilate them.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
and there are public relations boons that can make conquest and occupation activities much, much easier.
Judging from the Horses' success in the Outworlds Alliance, the task would seem to be almost trivial in any case.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
Further, there are likely members of the Exiles whose initial love-affair with the IS has been soured by dealing with the local politics (ask NVA in OOC what kind of screwing his clan's gotten in their dealings with the Lyrans, for instance),
That's as may be, but it has not so far driven them to reject their leadership or persuaded that leadership to seek rapprochement with the GC.
Quote from: Cannonshop on June 29, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
Prodigals can be the most fanatical of all when they've returned (human nature that),
But they have to choose to return on their own.
And, one just need to look at the Bears to see why concerns of changes are just part of the game. We were close allies of the FRR and then worked with the Bears closely. We helped them develop a Protomech program, among other things. We fought along side them at Alshain against the Dracs, after a trial to contract our forces. Now, we appear to be public enemy #2.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 11:55:53 AM
Well, Diana invalidating the trial won't really mean much.
Not to the Exiles, maybe not to the other Wolves (though that shouldn't be your call.)
It does matter to your most dangerous neighbors.
We'll see whose Might starts making the Most Right in Turn 41 and beyond. :)
Hey...More enemies to target...LOL
And, it doesn't really matter, we get targetted no matter what. And, going after us may cause the RD grief from the FRR side. The Falcons splitting their focus would be dangerous. More WMD/OrBomb by the clans will be SOOO helpful to ever turning the people of the IS to see them as anything but boogeymen.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:06:27 PM
And, one just need to look at the Bears to see why concerns of changes are just part of the game. We were close allies of the FRR and then worked with the Bears closely.
And I am not averse to continuing friendly relations, just as I have sought friendly contact among the Inner Sphere. Your refusal to seek rapprochement with the GC has proven (to our initial surprise) that you are not Clan, but that need not stop us from being friends. However, you'd pretty much need to stop acting aggressively to sabotage the GC's war effort. I sense some good RP upcoming.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:06:27 PMNow, we appear to be public enemy #2.
Don't flatter yourself. You're a very small fish in a very big pond.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:12:27 PM
And, it doesn't really matter, we get targetted no matter what.
It
does really matter, because who targets you changes.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:12:27 PMAnd, going after us may cause the RD grief from the FRR side.
Seriously? Because the FRR has no love whatsoever for the Wolves. I'd expect them to be cheering and reaching for the popcorn.
1 - WiE did approach the GC. During SJWs GMShip. The rules he set were not viable.
2 - FRR and RD both approached us about helping them change the worlds from GC Wolf to RD/WiE. This goes way back as well.
And I sense fun too...Just hope for some time to get orders sheets figured out.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:29:02 PM
1 - WiE did approach the GC. During SJWs GMShip. The rules he set were not viable.
That was then. This is now: dozens of turns, a few years, and a goodly number of GMships later.
SJW's GM fiat meddling is a thing of the past, and the Exiles' failure to attempt rapprochement since then is still telling.
For many turns, the OWA couldn't invade Antallos because the GMs wouldn't let us. Then they did, and we did, because it has always been our desire to do so.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:29:02 PM
2 - FRR and RD both approached us about helping them change the worlds from GC Wolf to RD/WiE. This goes way back as well.
We approached the DC too, and they actually helped us. That doesn't mean the FRR has any special attachment to them either.
Might want to check with Dave and the former players. Exiles moved from Arc Royal to Grumium because of that special raproachment.
One other thought...Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall a case of a clan leadership changing due to a Trial of Possession. So, it has already occurred. I may be wrong, so I ask the others with the long memories to help me remember.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
One other thought...Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall a case of a clan leadership changing due to a Trial of Possession.
Yup. The former Ghost Bear Khan took the seat in an illegal Trial of Possession. Still, it's not the correct procedure.
Khans are
elected, so a Khanship cannot be gained by the result of
any Trial. Where this has been allowed in canon or in the FGC, it is a mistake. Canon, but an error.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:43:12 PM
Might want to check with Dave and the former players. Exiles moved from Arc Royal to Grumium because of that special raproachment.
I knew the Exiles had a guest facility in my territory, but not where it was or how it came about, exactly.
And no, that doesn't indicate a special sentiment from the FRR side of things. It just indicates that they let you keep your stuff on their planet. As with the Lyran Commonwealth, that arrangement can be as temporary as it needs to be.
But, again, we did not challenge for leadership of either Clan. We challenged for leadership of the united Clan. Marco Hall and Ivan Kerensky were both elected Khan of Clan Wolf. Both sought to be the ONLY Khan of Clan Wolf. The Wolves do not have precedent to work off of. And, in essence, what has happened is that the victor has proven that their path was right and that they were the rightful leader of Clan Wolf all along. So, perhaps, the wording used was wrong. A trial of refusal over the others claim to being Khan of Clan Wolf. Still, you are right, in canon it has never occurred. Here, it has. It has precedent and it was supported by the Grand Council.
A? Guest facility? Try guest facilities on 5 different worlds. Try forces helping defend most of those worlds, unless that has changed. We were the FRRs HPG network for a long while. The relationship was much closer than it seems you were told. Not that that can't change. And that was my point. My focus is to remain as close to canon as new things allow my faction, while still having fun. But, we too have added new features to our clan to survive.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 01:06:59 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
One other thought...Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall a case of a clan leadership changing due to a Trial of Possession.
Yup. The former Ghost Bear Khan took the seat in an illegal Trial of Possession. Still, it's not the correct procedure.
Khans are elected, so a Khanship cannot be gained by the result of any Trial. Where this has been allowed in canon or in the FGC, it is a mistake. Canon, but an error.
Oh, and just to be clear, I am not suggesting to JediBear that he change what he is doing or that I have any complaints. Just that there is a lot of history there and I would hope he wants to know and understand it so that he can use that history in whatever way moving forward. My issue with new Faction heads is NOT that they change course, it is that they often ignore the history that exists to do so. Not an accusation at any FH and specifically not at JediBear.
Actually, you only called for leadership of the Wolves at Tamar. Read your own language from the thread. If the rest of Clan Wold away from Tamar does not recognize your claim, or even Ivan Kerensky, he would be well within his rights. You left a loophole in your own poorly worded challenge.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
But, again, we did not challenge for leadership of either Clan. We challenged for leadership of the united Clan. Marco Hall and Ivan Kerensky were both elected Khan of Clan Wolf. Both sought to be the ONLY Khan of Clan Wolf. The Wolves do not have precedent to work off of. And, in essence, what has happened is that the victor has proven that their path was right and that they were the rightful leader of Clan Wolf all along. So, perhaps, the wording used was wrong. A trial of refusal over the others claim to being Khan of Clan Wolf. Still, you are right, in canon it has never occurred. Here, it has. It has precedent and it was supported by the Grand Council.
A? Guest facility? Try guest facilities on 5 different worlds. Try forces helping defend most of those worlds, unless that has changed. We were the FRRs HPG network for a long while. The relationship was much closer than it seems you were told. Not that that can't change. And that was my point. My focus is to remain as close to canon as new things allow my faction, while still having fun. But, we too have added new features to our clan to survive.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 01:06:59 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
One other thought...Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall a case of a clan leadership changing due to a Trial of Possession.
Yup. The former Ghost Bear Khan took the seat in an illegal Trial of Possession. Still, it's not the correct procedure.
Khans are elected, so a Khanship cannot be gained by the result of any Trial. Where this has been allowed in canon or in the FGC, it is a mistake. Canon, but an error.
Perhaps. Thank goodness it was the intent of the 2 Faction Heads to merge into one viable entity. Split, the Wolves were not in position to excercise their righful place in the panthean. :)
Quote from: GreyJaeger on June 29, 2010, 01:18:53 PM
Actually, you only called for leadership of the Wolves at Tamar. Read your own language from the thread. If the rest of Clan Wold away from Tamar does not recognize your claim, or even Ivan Kerensky, he would be well within his rights. You left a loophole in your own poorly worded challenge.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
But, again, we did not challenge for leadership of either Clan. We challenged for leadership of the united Clan. Marco Hall and Ivan Kerensky were both elected Khan of Clan Wolf. Both sought to be the ONLY Khan of Clan Wolf. The Wolves do not have precedent to work off of. And, in essence, what has happened is that the victor has proven that their path was right and that they were the rightful leader of Clan Wolf all along. So, perhaps, the wording used was wrong. A trial of refusal over the others claim to being Khan of Clan Wolf. Still, you are right, in canon it has never occurred. Here, it has. It has precedent and it was supported by the Grand Council.
A? Guest facility? Try guest facilities on 5 different worlds. Try forces helping defend most of those worlds, unless that has changed. We were the FRRs HPG network for a long while. The relationship was much closer than it seems you were told. Not that that can't change. And that was my point. My focus is to remain as close to canon as new things allow my faction, while still having fun. But, we too have added new features to our clan to survive.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 01:06:59 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
One other thought...Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall a case of a clan leadership changing due to a Trial of Possession.
Yup. The former Ghost Bear Khan took the seat in an illegal Trial of Possession. Still, it's not the correct procedure.
Khans are elected, so a Khanship cannot be gained by the result of any Trial. Where this has been allowed in canon or in the FGC, it is a mistake. Canon, but an error.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:25:13 PM
Perhaps. Thank goodness it was the intent of the 2 Faction Heads to merge into one viable entity. Split, the Wolves were not in position to excercise their righful place in the panthean. :)
does that mean that we'll have to house train them again, or lay down papers in the GC chambers ;D
Quote from: GraeGor on June 29, 2010, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:25:13 PM
Perhaps. Thank goodness it was the intent of the 2 Faction Heads to merge into one viable entity. Split, the Wolves were not in position to excercise their righful place in the panthean. :)
does that mean that we'll have to house train them again, or lay down papers in the GC chambers ;D
Hey, both Wolves share another thing in common. Distaste for the Adders :P
For one, I am grateful for the break for the new ordersheet, since, we have to merge two factions and then decide how to deal with some issues. And, somehow, all of our allies seem to have disappeared from the GC, one way or another. Only one I am not sure about is the current status of the Horses and what will happen with the Bears.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
But, again, we did not challenge for leadership of either Clan. We challenged for leadership of the united Clan.
Which does not have a right to representation in the Grand Council, since it cannot inherit it from the new Clan and the old Clan stands Abjured by GM fiat.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
Marco Hall and Ivan Kerensky were both elected Khan of Clan Wolf.
Both claims were problematic as understood in Clan Law. Marco Hall stands Abjured and so cannot be a Khan. Ivan Kerensky is not a member of that Clan Wolf and thus has no claim to its Khanship, which therefore remains vacant, as no warriors exist to represent the extinct Wolf Clan.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
Both sought to be the ONLY Khan of Clan Wolf. The Wolves do not have precedent to work off of. And, in essence, what has happened is that the victor has proven that their path was right and that they were the rightful leader of Clan Wolf all along. So, perhaps, the wording used was wrong. A trial of refusal over the others claim to being Khan of Clan Wolf.
Well, no, because the Trial of Refusal is something specific and this is something else entirely. The GL's interpretation is that your Trial of Whatever is functionally a Trial of Possession and that the outcome of a private Grievance also rides upon it (this is legal, as parties have a right to use any means they like to resolve a dispute by mutual agreement) and so all Possessable assets of Clan Wolf (Planets, Facilities, Forces, Blood Lines) would have been transferred in accordance to Clan Law into a body with no representation in the GC. The lack of any warriors or assets remaining in the GC Clan Wolf would make it an extinct Clan.
As Commander in Chief of the Clans at War, the ilKhan has the right to prevent or void
anyTrial deemed detrimental to the prosecution of the war. In failing to comply with that order, the GC Wolves would be guilty of Treason.
To gain legal control over the Wolf Khanships, the Exiles would have needed to petition the Grand Council for a Trial of Absorption.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
Still, you are right, in canon it has never occurred. Here, it has. It has precedent and it was supported by the Grand Council.
The Clans are not a common-law state. Precedent does not therefore make new law. Just because the GC once seated a man with no legal right to a Khanship does not mean that they are duty-bound to do so in the future.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:12:28 PM
A? Guest facility? Try guest facilities on 5 different worlds. Try forces helping defend most of those worlds, unless that has changed. We were the FRRs HPG network for a long while. The relationship was much closer than it seems you were told. Not that that can't change. And that was my point. My focus is to remain as close to canon as new things allow my faction, while still having fun. But, we too have added new features to our clan to survive.
People don't tell me things, even though I've been making frantic requests for information to everyone I can think of since turn 38.
Do you want to write up a briefing to get me up to speed?
And that goes for anyone else sleeping with major RD characters, keeping facilities on our lands, or (especially) keeping military forces on our lands too.
Quote from: GraeGor on June 29, 2010, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:25:13 PM
Perhaps. Thank goodness it was the intent of the 2 Faction Heads to merge into one viable entity. Split, the Wolves were not in position to excercise their righful place in the panthean. :)
does that mean that we'll have to house train them again, or lay down papers in the GC chambers ;D
No worries. As of this time, no representatives of this new Wolf Clan will be permitted access to the Hall of the Khans.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:38:48 PM
Hey, both Wolves share another thing in common. Distaste for the Adders :P
well, at least we're consistent ;)
JediBear - Let me get caught up. I can only speak on the Exiles side of things. The GC Wolves have other deals with you. I will copy silentwarrior, as we need to get on a common page anyway.
GraeGor - Yes, you are consitently slimy. :P
All Others - I ask that you send any deals you have with either Wolf faction to BOTH silentwarrior and I. The GMs should be copied as well, so they can police any concerns of 'cheating'. I trust there will not be issues.
I should note that I have been offered a dissenting opinion that claims your Trial of Whatever is completely illegal, since it replicates a Trial of Absorption but is not authorized by the Grand Council.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 01:59:08 PM
GraeGor - Yes, you are consitently slimy. :P
slimy, yet successful in most endeavors
and it's difficult to argue against that success
though OOC, Im glad to see the Wolves one Clan again...IC, somewhat glad, yet suspicious of the timing
Perhaps. But, since the two bodies affected <Clan Wolf and Wolf in Exile> have no reason to file a complaint, then there is no complaint to be filed in the Grand Council. Outcome being IGNORED by the Grand Council, well, gee, that is NOTHING new to the Exiles. The Falcons abjured something they did not possess and pulled a de facto absorption and it stuck. So...Actually........
So, yes, the GC may not recognise it. And, to date, I don't know if anyone will do anything with the GC or not.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
I should note that I have been offered a dissenting opinion that claims your Trial of Whatever is completely illegal, since it replicates a Trial of Absorption but is not authorized by the Grand Council.
That may be a false statement. IIRC, it was during the first meeting of the GC after the "Absorption" that Vlad brought up the sham ToA, and then challenged and killed Crichell, in effect Refusing the whatever it actually was. So technically, the GC never declared one way or the other on the subject. Been a while since I read that book.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 02:12:24 PM
Perhaps. But, since the two bodies affected <Clan Wolf and Wolf in Exile> have no reason to file a complaint, then there is no complaint to be filed in the Grand Council. Outcome being IGNORED by the Grand Council, well, gee, that is NOTHING new to the Exiles. The Falcons abjured something they did not possess and pulled a de facto absorption and it stuck. So...Actually........
So, yes, the GC may not recognise it. And, to date, I don't know if anyone will do anything with the GC or not.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
I should note that I have been offered a dissenting opinion that claims your Trial of Whatever is completely illegal, since it replicates a Trial of Absorption but is not authorized by the Grand Council.
They ignored it. But, Vlad did not dispute the absorption. He formed a new clan BECAUSE of it. It was how he cleaned the Wolves. He killed Crichell over his lack of combat experience, etc. I believe it has been officially stated that in canon, the issue was ignored and each clan formed its own opinion. That is why the Vipers have a decent opinion of the Exiles in canon, the Horses worked with us, the Wolves maintained contact, the Bears continued to trial normally against us, etc. Few clans truly 'hated' the Exiles in canon. Most just could not be bothered.
Quote from: GreyJaeger on June 29, 2010, 02:21:50 PM
That may be a false statement. IIRC, it was during the first meeting of the GC after the "Absorption" that Vlad brought up the sham ToA, and then challenged and killed Crichell, in effect Refusing the whatever it actually was. So technically, the GC never declared one way or the other on the subject. Been a while since I read that book.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 02:12:24 PM
Perhaps. But, since the two bodies affected <Clan Wolf and Wolf in Exile> have no reason to file a complaint, then there is no complaint to be filed in the Grand Council. Outcome being IGNORED by the Grand Council, well, gee, that is NOTHING new to the Exiles. The Falcons abjured something they did not possess and pulled a de facto absorption and it stuck. So...Actually........
So, yes, the GC may not recognise it. And, to date, I don't know if anyone will do anything with the GC or not.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
I should note that I have been offered a dissenting opinion that claims your Trial of Whatever is completely illegal, since it replicates a Trial of Absorption but is not authorized by the Grand Council.
NVA is correct. Technically, the GC never actually considered the matter. Canonically, the reason why is less than clear. It's been stated that the GC was poised to consider the matter, but that the GC lost interest after the new Wolf Clan came into being.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 02:32:18 PM
NVA is correct. Technically, the GC never actually considered the matter. Canonically, the reason why is less than clear. It's been stated that the GC was poised to consider the matter, but that the GC lost interest after the new Wolf Clan came into being.
But, to be absolutely fair to everyone, one of SJW's edicts was that the abjuration was legal. There was still some question over WHICH abjuration. And, I believe the process for me to return was to fight the Falcons, but they never accepted my challenge. Then, big wars started and we have never returned, cause the GC became corrupted ANYWAY and we were able to gain SL membership.
Could we please stop talking about SJW's actions? That guy is one of the few that can enrage me in the internet. His Gming was absolutely despicable.
I am too, interested in what this brings, at first glance, it is anothe strike against the Clans and may take out the Wolf Clan forever. As Clan, I mean.
Quote from: Marlin on June 29, 2010, 02:47:26 PM
...Wolf Clan forever. As Grand Council Clan, I mean.
Fixed...As for 'him', I agree. But, there is relevance to what happened back then.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Marlin on June 29, 2010, 02:47:26 PM
...Wolf Clan forever. As Grand Council[/i] Clan, I mean.
Fixed...As for 'him', I agree. But, there is relevance to what happened back then.
And Fixed for you. There is no difference between a Grand Council Member and a Khan.
Clan Wolf in Exile would beg to differ. As would the Khans of Clan Wolf, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Snow Raven, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Jade Falcon, etc...From the DA. So canon already supports Clan/Khanship without being in the Grand Council. :)
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Marlin on June 29, 2010, 02:47:26 PM
...Wolf Clan forever. As Grand Council[/i] Clan, I mean.
Fixed...As for 'him', I agree. But, there is relevance to what happened back then.
And Fixed for you. There is no difference between a Grand Council Member and a Khan.
Quote"You had your chance to bid for the right to Absorb Clan Cloud Cobra, and you passed on it. Clan Star Adder is in the vein of the Black Mandrills, and we deserve some explanations of your actions."
Black Mandrills! I love it :) +1
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 03:00:16 PM
So canon already supports Clan/Khanship without being in the Grand Council. :)
You're arguing semantics. You're using a definition of the word
no one else here uses, meaning that technically you're using a different word entirely.
You referenced canon to back up one of your claims, reasonably so. So, while, IC, the Khans may try to ignore it, here, in this OOC forum, I recognize that canon states that being a member of the Grand Council does not make you clan. Clan is a way of life, not a membership in a club.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 03:27:56 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 03:00:16 PM
So canon already supports Clan/Khanship without being in the Grand Council. :)
You're arguing semantics. You're using a definition of the word no one else here uses, meaning that technically you're using a different word entirely.
Star Adders, Sharks, please make sure to use the correct tables for Interdiction breaking.
It was an ASF on ASF naval engagement to break an interdiction.
I noticed. :P Too late. But what can I say, I am Ice Hellion. :D
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 03:29:56 PM
You referenced canon to back up one of your claims, reasonably so. So, while, IC, the Khans may try to ignore it, here, in this OOC forum, I recognize that canon states that being a member of the Grand Council does not make you clan.
I disagree, even with your misstatement corrected.
And you are still just arguing semantics. You're using a definition of the word distinct from that agreed upon by the people arguing with you. You're not going to convince us because definitions are arbitrary.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 03:29:56 PMClan is a way of life, not a membership in a club
The way of life requires membership in the club.
So, according to you, the 'Dark Age' Ghost Bears/RD, Wolves, Falcons, Ravens, Horses, etc...Are not clan either?
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
So, according to you, the 'Dark Age' Ghost Bears/RD, Wolves, Falcons, Ravens, Horses, etc...Are not clan either?
We've covered this before. As far as I know, that's correct.
Quote from: JediBear on June 29, 2010, 08:44:48 PM
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
So, according to you, the 'Dark Age' Ghost Bears/RD, Wolves, Falcons, Ravens, Horses, etc...Are not clan either?
We've covered this before. As far as I know, that's correct.
Interesting. I never read that in any of the material and thought that they still referred to themselves as Clan XXX. They still act generally like clanners. But, I guess if you see them as non clan, then you are right. I don't interpret the data the way you do.
I'd imagine that JediBear's going off of the concept that since the Homeworlds -- and thus, the seat of the Grand Council -- were cut off from the Invading Clans, that they therefore were not communicating with the GC and therefore no longer truly a part of it. Which to me makes a certain amount of sense, although they still called themselves Clans and many continued to abide by Clan doctrine, organization, tactics, and traditions. Which, in the end, means that it all comes down to personal interpretation.
Hey DK...What type of stove was that in you kitten?
dude, dont dis on my kitten just because i can cook my ramens on it, and you cant :P
Gee...Thanks to the Terrans...Really...Thanks...
*sigh*
sheesh
with friends like those NVA, you really don't need enemies do you?
NO kidding
I mean, first the FRR goes Clan on us. Then an SL ally blows up some of our folks. Then the RD turns on us. Now this...LOL
well, if it makes you feel better, you can count on us to blow you up at any opportunity (or at least be prepared to blow you up)
Quote from: GraeGor on June 30, 2010, 03:48:43 AM
well, if it makes you feel better, you can count on us to blow you up at any opportunity (or at least be prepared to blow you up)
Ah...A little sanity<?> in life.
Quote from: NVA on June 29, 2010, 08:47:38 PM
Interesting. I never read that in any of the material and thought that they still referred to themselves as Clan XXX. They still act generally like clanners.
Talking funny and engaging in honor duels combined with tossing the word "Clan" in front of your name doesn't actually make you a Clan.
Anyone at all can do that, and so there's nothing actually special about it.
By this definition, the OWA could outlaw contractions, switch to a base-5 organization and rename themselves "Clan Pygmy Marmoset" and they'd then actually be a Clan.
Are those really the only qualifications?
Latin, the official language of the Marian Hegemony, does not use contractions. Our base-5 organization is the maniple.
Just call us Clan Revenant Legion.
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 30, 2010, 12:31:06 PM
Are those really the only qualifications?
Latin, the official language of the Marian Hegemony, does not use contractions. Our base-5 organization is the maniple.
Just call us Clan Revenant Legion.
Cool. You want to join the Grand Council and kick around some Successor Lords?
Works for me, we can move the Blood Spirits to the Little Clans' Table ;)
Quote from: JediBear on June 30, 2010, 12:40:37 PM
Cool. You want to join the Grand Council and kick around some Successor Lords?
As fun as that sounds, I think your orignal point stands. There is more to being a Clan than that. Kerensky's vision protected the Inner Sphere from the destructive power of the SLDF, and then the Clans perfected a way of minimalizing the negative impact of warfare, as opposed to the total warfare embraced by the Inner Sphere. "Clan Revenant Legion" might never be able to grasp the concept of limited warfare that helps define the Clans.
Of course, if the Clans do take over, they'll have to reconsider their philosophy. ;)
What I find interesting is that some of the Clans who have been kicked off the Grand Council spend more time trying to uphold their traditions than those who claim to be the true heirs of Kerensky. It's a fair question whether the exiles have been trying to recapture something that they've lost, or whether they are taking their oaths just as seriously as those on the GC.
I also find it remarkable that the Clans are unconcerned about a group like the Dark, which has completely rejected their tenets and is using Clan technology to blaze a swath of genocide across the Inner Sphere. I find it preposterous that such a group has attracted so many followers, especially as the Clans typically go out of their way to exterminate such scum. Whenever the Clans embrace Inner Sphere tactics and allow civilians to be targeted, they lose their moral high ground. The canonical Paul Moon eventually learned from his mistakes, even though it took the destruction of his Clan to see it. This one is characterized as a total monster who still doesn't get it. It's a real wall banger of a plot point that I'd like to see corrected.
regarding the Dark
1) they're on the far side of the IS, only the Adders and Horses really have any presence there; the Adders is minimal, and the Horses are probably trying to integrate themselves and the OWA
2) thanks to the ComStar Interdiction of Clan territory, the Clan's don't get updated as to the current state of affairs in the IS, those that have a "work around" may get it, but it will be considerably out of date
3) most Clan's likely don't care, if they know at all, seeing the Dark as "just desserts" for the Nations they're plaguing
4) those that do care, and know, aren't able to commit much currently, if anything, due to the Not-Named War
When it comes to the Dark, I think a big point in their favor is that they don't generaly claim to be the Jaguars (though they do sometimes, when it suits them). They are just "The Dark." So the Clans don't feel like they are really treading on our intelectual property, or besmerching our name. And when they call themselves the Jags, we just laugh at how silly that is, since everyone knows that getting defeated when all the IS houses gang up on you and no one helps out is a sure sign of weekness. Its not like the Falcons went crying to the other Clans for help...
Anyway... so the Clans see the Dark as just some group. As JediBear tells us, if you're not a part of the club, you don't really count, so its not really our problem. The one group for whom it is a problem, the Horses, are doing something about it. The Adders have mainly been laughing all the way to the bank as they take pressure off our chief ally.
As for Paul Moon, there's no telling when he came to hold the views he does in the DA era, and what caused that to be the case. It could have been the Jihad, but with no Jihad he's had no cause to reform. It could be a product of the Phone Companies merging, as being held by just C* gave him a difrent perspective. Or he might have just watched one too many violent cartoons, or played too many vidio games. That is after all how someone becomes a genocidal mad man, right?
To the Dark, the others summed it up. And Moon:I want some plot points corrected as well, in Canon as well as here. I doubt its gonna happen. ;)
This deviates from Canon, so good ol' Paul might have seen things that made him.. more Drac/Capellan in mind. Dracs took no survivors earlier too.. why should the Paul?
And well, he is not Clan anymore and pokes the mightiest realm besides the Terrans. I kinda like that.
While it would be nice if the Clans policed up after their own, I can understand why its not going to happen here.
My main problem with the Dark is that they don't make sense. They aren't actually bandits or Jaguar holdouts. Instead, they're some kind of death cult following a poorly written villain with no redeeming features. As far as tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster) go, this one isn't working for me. In the DA timeline, Moon has plenty of time to think about Trent and the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars. In this timeline, someone gave him a bunch of fanatical troops, put him on the opposite side of the Sphere from the Clans and turned him loose on innocent planetary populations, which he is murdering out of some vague notion of revenge.
But as you say, they're not really Clanners. He was only raised, equipped, and disciplined by the Clans, so the Inner Sphere can't really blame Clan society for producing him now that he has gone over to the dark side. Mind you, if the Smoke Jaguars had been defeated by another Clan, they would have been quietly Absorbed, but because it was the Star League that beat them, the remainder have become remorseless killing machines, taking the actions that caused the Inner Sphere to target the Jaguars to a new extreme.
???
If the Smoke Jaguars represent the pinnacle of what Clan society is capable of producing and the rest of the Clans are incapable of dealing with them when they go wrong, then what exactly is the value of Clan society?
I think, given their already-brutal and bloodthirsty mindset, and adding a big heaping helping of genocide (the Annihilation, more or less, would be seen by THEM as genocide, even if it wasn't) and ultimate betrayal (having every single Clan turn their backs on them when the Inner Sphere ganged up to destroy them), that the Dark make perfect sense. Their own society basically kicked them out, and they're bred to kill... becoming even more remorseless killimg machines and mass murderers seems like a logical progression to me. They literally have nothing to live for anymore, since they have no standing and can't achieve any of their societal goals (namely, restoring the Star League, etc etc)... so yeah, societal nihilism is 100% fitting, in-character, and makes perfect sense.
How are the Jags the 'pinnacle of Clan society'? I don't quite get where that comes into play. The Jags got attacked, they asked for helped and were ignored, thus allowing the SL to wipe them out.
Its not the act of being defeated by the SL that pushed them to become the Dark, it was the other Clans not aiding them, thus removing them from Clan society and forever stripping them of the purpose and fate they had lived for their entire lives. No longer being a Clan, means that they will never be able to take Terra, never be able to reform the true Star Leauge, never be able to accomplish any of their goals. That would shatter their collective mindset, and in that situation, those with the strongest natual personalities would come to the fore with whatever personal motivations they hold, and push on.
If Moon holds Victor most personally responsible for the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars, then its perfectly acceptable to me that he would strike into the Federated Suns and cause as much damage as possible, if only to cause Victor pain by proving that he cannot defend his own people.
I don't recall the Smoke Jaguars actually asking for anyone's help.
Quote from: Fatebringer on June 30, 2010, 05:31:27 PM
I don't recall the Smoke Jaguars actually asking for anyone's help.
They did. Lincoln did, specifically.
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 30, 2010, 04:50:05 PM
While it would be nice if the Clans policed up after their own, I can understand why its not going to happen here.
My main problem with the Dark is that they don't make sense. They aren't actually bandits or Jaguar holdouts. Instead, they're some kind of death cult following a poorly written villain with no redeeming features. As far as tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster) go, this one isn't working for me. In the DA timeline, Moon has plenty of time to think about Trent and the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars. In this timeline, someone gave him a bunch of fanatical troops, put him on the opposite side of the Sphere from the Clans and turned him loose on innocent planetary populations, which he is murdering out of some vague notion of revenge.
But as you say, they're not really Clanners. He was only raised, equipped, and disciplined by the Clans, so the Inner Sphere can't really blame Clan society for producing him now that he has gone over to the dark side. Mind you, if the Smoke Jaguars had been defeated by another Clan, they would have been quietly Absorbed, but because it was the Star League that beat them, the remainder have become remorseless killing machines, taking the actions that caused the Inner Sphere to target the Jaguars to a new extreme.
???
If the Smoke Jaguars represent the pinnacle of what Clan society is capable of producing and the rest of the Clans are incapable of dealing with them when they go wrong, then what exactly is the value of Clan society?
Well, I'm not going to get into the debate about whether or not the Dark are representative of the canonical ex-Jags. The Dark have been in the game long before I was a GM (and in fact, long before Paul Moon's ultimate change of heart was revealed), and like a lot of things in FC '62 they just don't correspond with how things turned out in Canon.
Having said that, in the quote above there's a very astute
in-game observation I'm surprised more people haven't questioned. I'll just leave it at that ;)
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 30, 2010, 04:50:05 PM
If the Smoke Jaguars represent the pinnacle of what Clan society is capable of producing and the rest of the Clans are incapable of dealing with them when they go wrong, then what exactly is the value of Clan society?
Your Star League Defense Force assured us that there were no remnants of the Smoke Jaguars, so what good is it?
Seriously, I'm not even sure the Clans as a whole are aware of the Dark. We're certainly not in any position to take the fight to them at this time, even if getting the Khans to agree to anything weren't like herding saber-toothed cats and the Blood weren't aiming the full might of the TH at us.
Wait Moon is in the Dark Age timeline?
Which book was this? and when did I miss it?
"Surrender Your Dreams", as the leader of the Fidelis. The Fidelis' founders were a group of ex-Jags led by Paul Moon who swore their services to Devlin Stone in return for safety, and operated as his personal black ops group in the Republic era. Paul Moon was still around, but the Fidelis' ranks are ex-Jaguar descendants, not the originals.
Running a Periphery power, I'd just as soon the Clans ignore me, but I still wanted to discuss what's going on in FC '62. This timeline could be a good second chance for the Clans, but I'm wondering whether they deserve it.
Clan Smoke Jaguar spearheaded the Clan Invasion, proving themselves in combat and earning one of the four original invasion corridors. They were considered to be some of the best warriors that the Clans had to offer. They followed the strictures established for Clan warfare very closely, and they were very, very good at it. They were a flawless product of the very pinnacle of Clan society before it was corrupted by the realities of combat with the Inner Sphere, but neither their years of trial by combat nor their selective breeding program stopped them from going horriblly wrong. They were completely incapable of dealing with the kind of warfare offered by the Inner Sphere. Outside of the controlled combat environment of the Clans, the Smoke Jaguars became monsters.
They are perfectly representative of what the Clan warrior society produces.
Using the Smoke Jaguars as an example, how do the other Clans measure up at this time? For example, how many are using orbital bombardments or nuclear weapons? How many are ignoring traditional trials, rules of engagement, or bidding procedures?
And how many are offering up the same kind of excuses as the Jaguars did?
If the end result of a Clan like Smoke Jaguar is a band of genocidal rejects, what hope is there for the rest of Clan society?
Ultimately, Clan players will have to ask what kind of standard they intend to hold both themselves and their fellow Clans.
I think a sense of hipocracy lies at the very heart of what it means to be Clan, so a true, blue Clanner need never qustion the incongruities that we are faced with, and need mearly soldier on and do what needs to be done. But perhaps that's just me.
But you're coming from a false premise, that premise being that the Jaguars were the pinnacle of what Clan society had to offer, even BEFORE the invasion. You seem to be saying that the Jaguars were corrupted by the Inner Sphere and the reality of fighting in the invasion, but that's not exactly true.
The Jaguars were brutal, cruel, and bloodthirsty well before the invasion. They were excessively harsh to their own lower castes, to an extreme that even the Falcons and Coyotes would balk, and they had NO friends among the Clans, because they couldn't dial down their thirst for combat enough to actually make any.
Yes, the Jaguars followed Clan law and procedure very closely, but that doesn't really mean much when you consider their character, which has been from their inception the character of the bloodthirsty conqueror. They simply indulged in it more during the invasion, when they realized that sticking to Clan law and procedure was hamstringing them. The invasion simply brought out that which was ALWAYS lurking within their hearts.
So you'll have to forgive me if I take exception to you using the Smoke Jaguars, of ALL Clans, as a measuring stick against the rest of the Clans, because it's just not a defensible argument.
No real Clan uses Nukes. Esp. not against a planet.
In space it might change soon as the IS starts popping them out like candy.
And no Clan should forego Trial and Stuff against another. Means, all the Clans that used Invasion against a real Clan (following my definition :D ) are on the edge of losing Clan status.
I have spoken.
SJs were the pinnacle of the ultimate warrior. But, that was ALL they could do. That was their weakness. They could not manage. They could not lead. They could only fight ferociously.
Agree with NVA.
Yes, that's essentially correct.
Ultimately there's more to being Clan than just fighting, and the parts the Jaguars didn't get are the reason they're no longer with us.
Hey silentwarrior...Quit killing off my warriors...LOL
Wow...Bad roll
Rather than musing in the OOC with these lengthy posts maybe you should bring this stuff up IC. Kind of novel idea, don't you think? :P
Quote from: GI Journalist on June 30, 2010, 06:35:44 PM
Running a Periphery power, I'd just as soon the Clans ignore me, but I still wanted to discuss what's going on in FC '62. This timeline could be a good second chance for the Clans, but I'm wondering whether they deserve it.
Clan Smoke Jaguar spearheaded the Clan Invasion, proving themselves in combat and earning one of the four original invasion corridors. They were considered to be some of the best warriors that the Clans had to offer. They followed the strictures established for Clan warfare very closely, and they were very, very good at it. They were a flawless product of the very pinnacle of Clan society before it was corrupted by the realities of combat with the Inner Sphere, but neither their years of trial by combat nor their selective breeding program stopped them from going horriblly wrong. They were completely incapable of dealing with the kind of warfare offered by the Inner Sphere. Outside of the controlled combat environment of the Clans, the Smoke Jaguars became monsters.
They are perfectly representative of what the Clan warrior society produces.
Using the Smoke Jaguars as an example, how do the other Clans measure up at this time? For example, how many are using orbital bombardments or nuclear weapons? How many are ignoring traditional trials, rules of engagement, or bidding procedures?
And how many are offering up the same kind of excuses as the Jaguars did?
If the end result of a Clan like Smoke Jaguar is a band of genocidal rejects, what hope is there for the rest of Clan society?
Ultimately, Clan players will have to ask what kind of standard they intend to hold both themselves and their fellow Clans.
Well, if I didn't have 2 items on hold, and IIRC 6 questions still up in the air, I'm pretty sure I would at least. :D
QuoteOOC:
Terasen dead due to head shot in battle via ER Small Laser. Real shocker of an ending.
Aidan Pryde is working for the FWL? Now we're all in trouble.
*tap* *tap* *tap*
Is this thing on? Is it working?
Quote from: NVA on July 01, 2010, 12:51:30 PM
*tap* *tap* *tap*
Is this thing on? Is it working?
hmm, maybe you better test it
try hitting the keys of CTRL + ALT + DEL at the same time
*hehehehe*
Quote from: LittleH13 on July 01, 2010, 01:59:02 AM
Rather than musing in the OOC with these lengthy posts maybe you should bring this stuff up IC. Kind of novel idea, don't you think? :P
It may be on topic, but its still out of character. I don't get to have a lot of in character dialogue with the Clan players, so I appreciate the opportunity to get their perspective on the Clans in FC 62 as a whole. We're off the map of canon, so their opinions are what will chart the future of the game. I have seen some good role-play from them on the subject, and I'm waiting to see how they'll address these issues in game.
I just finished reading Trial Under Fire by Loren Coleman (a complementary e-book packaged with the free release of MW4). It details the Smoke Jaguar attempt to reestablish their Clan after the defeat on Huntress. I thought it gave good perspective on the Smoke Jaguar mindset, and why they failed.
Keep in mind, there is really no cross-dialogue in between the Clans and the IS...AT ALL. Every once in a while, there may be a chat, but it is always seems to be extremely limited in scope, i.e. the planet/battle being fought. A lot of this came from the meta-game before the move from CBT.com to this site, and the change in management, as well as a buttload of players. Neither side wants to talk, and both sides are 100% sure in the righteousness of their cause.
There is also the issue with the communications blackout between the Clans and IS. With only two Clans in the area the Dark are operating, and they are probably hearing rumors at best. The rest of the Clans may be barely aware that the Dark even exist, at best.
Quote from: GI Journalist on July 01, 2010, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: LittleH13 on July 01, 2010, 01:59:02 AM
Rather than musing in the OOC with these lengthy posts maybe you should bring this stuff up IC. Kind of novel idea, don't you think? :P
It may be on topic, but its still out of character. I don't get to have a lot of in character dialogue with the Clan players, so I appreciate the opportunity to get their perspective on the Clans in FC 62 as a whole. We're off the map of canon, so their opinions are what will chart the future of the game. I have seen some good role-play from them on the subject, and I'm waiting to see how they'll address these issues in game.
I just finished reading Trial Under Fire by Loren Coleman (a complementary e-book packaged with the free release of MW4). It details the Smoke Jaguar attempt to reestablish their Clan after the defeat on Huntress. I thought it gave good perspective on the Smoke Jaguar mindset, and why they failed.
:o
holy chit
:o
I honestly didnt expect that...though I do like the color
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay...
Who's in charge of the Union of Independant Worlds? UIW... Ewies? I am sort of worried/curious that the TC accidentally set that ball in motion a hair - their orders until Lyrans showed up was to build up their defenses...
*ahem* There is a place, where (because they're not occupied by a Clan, but they're not shooting at every Clanner they see...) where information might be able to flow to the Clans via one or two of their number...and info ON the Clans' internal conflicts, rivalries, internal alliances and such can flow the other way. Assuming no interdiction, nor invasion for a little while, it might be really an opportune location for both sides to run intel-gathering operations, make 'backchannel' connections, and do all that nifty stuff.
(like, for instance, making the Clans aware of "The Dark", or hurling propoganda around...) It's that little, seven system brown smudge on the map, sandwiched between the Star Adders, Goliath Scorpions, two factions of Lyrans, and the big empty.
The ability to dope out what the objectives, conflicts, politics, methods, and intent of your enemy can sometimes help you predict his movements beyond the obvious, and by doing so, allows for more than "ROFLSTOMP FOR PONY!!!" as a basic operational strategy (if you miss the reference, go read "Looking for Group").
There are advantages to HAVING a neutral in this situation-among them, a means of inserting agents, moving intelligence, gathering intelligence, making contacts, and arranging side-deals to make the conflict less...bi-polar.
I'd love to make use of that brown smudge except for the problem that any Rim Worldersw are going to be shot on sight.
Quote from: DXM on July 02, 2010, 05:38:46 PM
I'd love to make use of that brown smudge except for the problem that any Rim Worldersw are going to be shot on sight.
...then shot again. Yeah, but you can probably make friends with the Marians or the Taurians, or even make overtures to the Cappies, Feddies, or Dracs. I hate to say it, but you're in a position I wouldn't want to try to play out (and I'm playing a seven-system smudge with two factories that generates about 3 RP per turn at most!)
My advice to you, is to use 'false flag' tactics, and start working hard on 'making friends' who can either act as cats-paws, or listening posts, and maybe try making nice with the Terrans-they're the strongest kid on the block, and less ill-disposed toward you (being, for the moment, 'safe' from you) than, say, the Skye-Donegal lyrans or some of the other factions near or on your border.
(and hey, at least you don't have to prostitute yourself just to be moderately viable!)
Actually some clans HAVE been directly informed about the Dark.
I'd almost want a list of the factions that would claim they HAVEN'T been. >:(
Well, no one's directly informed the Camels. I think we know, but no one tells us anything these days.
I dont see why who knows about the Dark is such a big deal...most factions prolly don't care. Most Clans most likly couldn't care less right now: in case you havn't noticed, we have some issues here on our half of the IS, namely the IS trying to kill us, and also trying to frame us for exterminating them.
You know, I wonder...the LIC says its the Clans, because that works in their advantage kinda-sorta, even though most ppl would know the Clans havn't done that before(that I know of). Alot of Lyrans prolly think it was the RWR, which doesn't make sense, because that would just vilify them even more, making them more hated: serving little purpose.
I wonder if it wasn't The Blood: I mean, sure it destabalizes the Lyrans, but from their perspectivs, the LC was falling apart anyways from the Clan onslaught. This way, the Lyran state fractures, which doesn't really do much other than to strengthen garrisons in the provincial capitals instead of the random worlds that're no longer important: it also galvanizes many nations against the Clans and RWR. And nobody would believe it was another IS state, not in the middle of a war against te Clans.
Tricksy little hobbitses, those GMs :P
Ironic that the Widowmakers did exactly this to the Wolverines to galvanize the other Clans into exterminating them wholesale. Nicholas was aware of it (having viewed the footage of Widowmaker warriors dressed up as Wolverines and stealing the nuke from the disputed Brian Cache) but never did anything about it.
If the Blood ARE behind Tharkad, I for one would laugh at the ultimate irony of it all.
It very well might be. Though the sad, or perhaps just ironic, bit would be that since none of the Clans still retain that knolage (even the Wolves seem to have lost it, since their own Khan Phelan didn't seem to know).
Personaly, I blame the FWL. Because why not? We blame them for every other thing.
Actually, the tipping point for the UIW was finding out three things:
1. While Debbie Mac worked for the Archon, she found out Daphne Rowe was still alive-it was a Rowe Facility that originated the outbreak of Arluna Flu, hte idea that Rowe was still alive and not facing execution for that...
2. The 'trace' from the Triad detonation, compared to the Mt. Asgard bomb-Kowloon NEF is Kowloonese, and they're Coast-Guard trained, so BDA and NBC aren't 'shorted' the way they are in standard units, they analyzed the trace and it looked...well, not right-not like the sort of neutron-bomb derivative that you'd see someone with the tactical menu of the Clans deploying.
3. Rowe's escape, and announcement, and info that Adam Steiner was still among the living. This was the tipping point, right HERE. Adam dead, Somerset/Addergrad could be seen as a mistake, but just a mistake. Coupled with the rest of what the RWR's done the last six-in-character-months, and the high-level and deep penetration of the Lyran government they had (and HAD to have had to accomplish what they did), makes it a matter of crass betrayal, combined with likely continuing penetration of the LC's government at all levels (again, proved out by who signed up with them in the aftermath.)
Two of the other Lyran factions are typical dynastic arguments vs. legalist arguments: Arc Royal's trying for legitimacy with an Estates General, and SKye/Bolan are going with Salic Law in the form of Robert k. STEINER, and then, there's the Clanner angle with Charlemagne, who also has a Salic claim to the throne through verified genetic descent.
As for Motive on the bombing-the RWR needed the LC to be totally destabilized or they'd not be able to secede effectively (and look how effectively they've done it: Bolan frikking PROVINCE joined them!) It actually holds up when you take into account their previous tactics manuevering the Lyran state, and their chosen head-thereof.
At least, to the disgruntled bunch that seceded to form the UIW it does...then agian, they took the worst of the Arluna Flu damage, and had other reasons to be unhappy with the Commonwealth after more than a year of being isolated economically while still taxed and levied to support a distant war-effort and left virtually unprotected and paralyzed in the face of not one, but TWO advancing Clan forces-which squares well with what??
Oh, yeah, that's right-while paralyzed by those things, and stuck as part of the Commonwealth, they'd be easy prey for the Rimjobs, whereas by going independent, they could at least make a play to divert the Clan efforts away from them for a while, regain some vitality, make alliances with people who can and will actually FIGHT, and keep the "RWR" out of their worlds.
The native mistrust of "Foreign" rule is underscored by the damage done-a foreigner (Adam Steiner) stripped their defenses and wasted the men he took in a deliberate attempt to cripple the state they were all nominally part of, in order to falsify his own demise and bring his own separatist nation into existence. A foreigner (Peter Steiner Davion) authorized high command to continue drawing men and materiel away to a far-distant war, while maintaining unsustainable taxation levels and choking the local economies through what amounts to 'passive' embargo tactics, effectively abandoning them to be invaded and preyed upon by other external enemies. A foreigner (Daphne Rowe) used police-state tactics, official corruption, and underhanded means to coerce them into a "Rim Worlds Republic Province" prior to the outright betrayal at Somerset/Addergrad, and was the source for a bio-weapon that killed tens of billions in the area (whether by accident or design, the weapon was uncased in a populated area at a Rowe-McClaren facility), Foreign rulers who claimed those worlds virtually abandoned them to the plague, the only relief coming from in-name enemies (The Clans Goliath Scorpion, and Star Adder) and the microscopic state of the NIOPS association and Wolf in Exile (also not Lyrans).
Note also that the other Lyran or ex-Lyran factions have not come forward to condemn the RWR, which originated all of the above and orchestrated most of it (according to best info), it's really only the UIW in the person of Archduchess Debra MacAulliffe, who's calling for Rimjob craniums at this point...
and unlike many feuds (both in, and out of canon) this one's got reasons and teeth. It's not some ancestral/dynastic dynamic or an event that happened centuries ago-the pain is still current and the anger is that of the survivors and victims themselves.
Notably, because of the build-up events, the UIW's probably teh one state in the Inner Sphere who can say, out loud, that they don't think it was the Clans at Tharkad, and provide documentary proof that the tech is the wrong tech for it to BE the Clans...and they have little to no reason to say otherwise, since they aren't members of the "New" Star League, nor the Lyran Commonwealth, and they have little to no need to hate the Clans when there's a Rim Worlds out there who's done them actual, present-time injury.
This isn't to say they want to join a Clan, though-these worlds have their own cultures, and feel little to no need for further radical changes to how they live their lives, no desire to adopt a caste system, and no desire to kowtow to yet another foreign lord (or khan, or whathaveyou) who'll ignore them, tax them, make demands of them without recompense, and treat them as part of the real-estate to be won or lost in trials fought far away for obscure reasons.
But they DO want to put Adam Steiner at permanent attention and nail up Daphne Rowe like an easter ornament. they would like that very much...
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 02, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
It very well might be. Though the sad, or perhaps just ironic, bit would be that since none of the Clans still retain that knolage (even the Wolves seem to have lost it, since their own Khan Phelan didn't seem to know).
Personaly, I blame the FWL. Because why not? We blame them for every other thing.
IM I just want to assure you that I would never, under any circumstances do something like this...and then get caught.
I wanted to say something.. then I forgot. :P
perhaps I can add my viewpoint as CIH: Dark? I guess they heard of them, though suspicious channels (FedSuns press or so) thought of making contact but did not as the atrocities came out. Now its a fight far away, not to care at all.
RWR: I guess very few is known. But now as they have a big economic base.. they could mean trouble. However, before them lies a string of seemingly strongly defended worlds and SLDF.. and Terrans, and some Lyrans.. thats the issue at hand. All others will be dealt with when it is time.
Quote from: Marlin on July 02, 2010, 07:31:53 PM
I wanted to say something.. then I forgot. :P
perhaps I can add my viewpoint as CIH: Dark? I guess they heard of them, though suspicious channels (FedSuns press or so) thought of making contact but did not as the atrocities came out. Now its a fight far away, not to care at all.
RWR: I guess very few is known. But now as they have a big economic base.. they could mean trouble. However, before them lies a string of seemingly strongly defended worlds and SLDF.. and Terrans, and some Lyrans.. thats the issue at hand. All others will be dealt with when it is time.
Just consider though-if the Hellions aimed a little bit 'south' and rammed that attack on Terra through, say, Apollo, they would not only eliminate future competition, but they could by-pass most of the Maginot-line deployments and get into the guts of the Not-Named well ahead of the other Clans...
and come out heroes on both sides of the IS/Clan divide. (basically doing LIGHT 'mech tactics on a grand scale with fleets and Galaxies...)
(yes, I know, I should've said that in PM, or in-character, but my characters don't really have a means to do so...)
Kind of instead of hammering on the thick plate, driving up under to the soft belly...
You overestimate the patience of me and the Clan. ;) It would need many rounds to get there.
But yeah, it might be a way to go, unless they unpack the nukes.
BTW: I wanted to say: Should Tharkad not be Terrorized? Or did I really miss the 0-9 roll that means no T?
Just asking. OR wasnt it a real Nuke? I think it was real.
Thanks for that dissertation, Cannonshop. Apparently, the Clans are right -- the Rim Worlds Republic is the root of all that's evil. The RWR destroyed the Star League, purposely led half the LCAF into a meatgrinder, unleashed a virulent plague on unsuspecting worlds, and then decided to go ahead and nuke a national capital since, hey -- why not? They've already done everything else. Give it a month and Liz Ngo's death will end up as part of an RWR conspiracy, too.
. . . oh, except that Star League was destroyed by Stefan Amaris, whose entire familial line was wiped out (with the exception of the Star Lord incident), and the uncaring attitudes of Ewan Marik, Michael Steiner, John Davion, Minoru Kurita, and Barbara Liao. I can't speak for the Somerset operation one way or the other, but as I recall the Arluna Flu storyline was your baby. You can blame the RWR in-character for that as much as you want, but YOU wrote it, YOU came up with it, so as far as *I* am concerned, it is YOUR fault. Blame the RWR all you want, but don't villify a faction for what YOU fugging wrote especially in an OUT OF CHARACTER context. And no, the RWR did not nuke Tharkad. If they did, Dave neglected to mention that to me, and if so, he'd better tell me so that I can adjust my RP accordingly. I've been playing the bleeding heart over the past week, but if I need to go Full Retard, then I'm willing to do it.
Quote from: Marlin on July 02, 2010, 07:53:00 PM
You overestimate the patience of me and the Clan. ;) It would need many rounds to get there.
But yeah, it might be a way to go, unless they unpack the nukes.
BTW: I wanted to say: Should Tharkad not be Terrorized? Or did I really miss the 0-9 roll that means no T?
Just asking. OR wasnt it a real Nuke? I think it was real.
Um...didn't you-oh, yeah, some folks don't read the IC threads as often... Yes, what do you think broke the back of the Commonwealth, and generated the Bolan Secession, three competitors for rulership, and finally triggered the UIW to declare independence?
Is that NOT a state of chaos?
I read the excellent RP. :) IT came out that it should have been a nuke.
Problem is, the first time I got hit by a nuke the Hex was suddenly terrorized. Now I am looking at the T whereever the big Boom takes place.
DXM, I also read your RP and like it.
BTW: My first real candidate for the Boom was the Terrans. Somehow in canon, the reactor exploded there but elsewhere the Wobbies nuked planets so to unite all IS for the cause (tm) the weakest State would be beheaded. Dunno.. makes the most sense outta this mess. And seriously, those guys are walking atrocities anyway..
;)
Quote from: DXM on July 02, 2010, 07:55:52 PM
Thanks for that dissertation, Cannonshop. Apparently, the Clans are right -- the Rim Worlds Republic is the root of all that's evil. The RWR destroyed the Star League, purposely led half the LCAF into a meatgrinder, unleashed a virulent plague on unsuspecting worlds, and then decided to go ahead and nuke a national capital since, hey -- why not? They've already done everything else. Give it a month and Liz Ngo's death will end up as part of an RWR conspiracy, too.
. . . oh, except that Star League was destroyed by Stefan Amaris, whose entire familial line was wiped out (with the exception of the Star Lord incident), and the uncaring attitudes of Ewan Marik, Michael Steiner, John Davion, Minoru Kurita, and Barbara Liao. I can't speak for the Somerset operation one way or the other, but as I recall the Arluna Flu storyline was your baby. You can blame the RWR in-character for that as much as you want, but YOU wrote it, YOU came up with it, so as far as *I* am concerned, it is YOUR fault. Blame the RWR all you want, but don't villify a faction for what YOU fugging wrote especially in an OUT OF CHARACTER context. And no, the RWR did not nuke Tharkad. If they did, Dave neglected to mention that to me, and if so, he'd better tell me so that I can adjust my RP accordingly. I've been playing the bleeding heart over the past week, but if I need to go Full Retard, then I'm willing to do it.
Um... no, you're mixing "In Character" with OOC there. Play how you see it, DXM, the Flu was an
accident, it's just that the victims don't see it that way, Adam likely
didn't do what he did on purpose-but again, it's how the UIW's people see it-Perceptions don't always line up 100% with reality.
As for top-to-bottom penetration of the Lyran Government-that's not actually what I came up with, it's Lao_Hu's RP and the "Natural consequences" angle-for a while now, every single attempt at an Intel op directed at the RWR (up until you took over as player) has failed-at that point, it's not happenstance, it's penetration-of-government. (once is happenstance, twice coincidence and three times...yeah, that's enemy action.)
At this point, the RWR
should be pursuing alliances, including trying to get into the CPS and/or the Star League-whose official line is that the CLANS nuked Tharkad, so they couldn't likely debar the RWR from petitioning membership. Likewise, many of the CPS member states will look foremost at two of three (or all three) things:
1. you're on the "Right side" of the fight with the Clans (as in, you're not seeking Clan Friendships or engaging them in non-hostile contact)
2. You're on the "Right Side" of dealing with the big powers (You're not buddy-buddy with the powers that they're enemies with)
3. You're economically powerful with a demonstrably competent military and political leadership.
Start doing some propoganda posts and generating a 'feel' for your nation-state, pursue foreign relations aggressively and seek deals with other, established states that may seek to gain influence. Hell, you might be able to generate in-character sympathy by pointing to the rabid tone of the UIW's foreign policy pronouncements...or by mocking those same statements and making in-character fun of Debbie Mac's little mouse of a state.
One obvious move to make when approaching the TH and Star League, is to bandy the word "Collaborator" around to describe the segment of hte LC that just went for Charlemagne, and the same word directed at the UIW. This is propoganda gold, and it doesn't cost you any resources to do it.
Just one more bit, DXM:
Welcome to the game, I look forward to a nice, in-character bitter struggle, but outside of character, I'm really,really, really glad you're here. I look forward to playing against you as a worthy opponent. (Which means we can be friendly outside of what our characters/factions are doing...)
Oh, and note that a lot of that nasty diatribe I wrote ought to be viewed as offensive to the two LYRAN factions (Arc Royal and Skye/Donegal) because a bit more than half of it is bitterness about being IN the Commonwealth, and somewhat unfair (this is intentional by the writer, I want those guys to gin up responses decrying the unfair characterization of Lyran Rule!)
I keep trying to write responses and they all come out sounding disingenuous, acerbic, or insulting. So I'm going to give you a virtual handshake and say, "Let's get to it."
That's the spirit, my friends. :)
Anyone know if the Grand Council has forks handy? Or was it soup day?
Spoons are better. You disembowel someone with a fork your just mad.
You disembowel someone with a spoon and they know you really mean it.
Man, a person goes to bed, wakes up, checks emails, then comes here and finds out he missed out on....stuff
and unfortunately I'm still not fully awake to make any decent IC RP, though I can offer a bit of OOC advice, everyone needs to step back for a bit, perhaps the rest of the day (the time will help me think of how Stan would reply), and just get some distance/perspective before trying to tackle the issues raised in the GC
and to those that sent PMs on other subject matter, I'll try to get to those soon
Quote from: Jeyar on July 02, 2010, 04:00:24 AM
Okay...
Who's in charge of the Union of Independant Worlds? UIW... Ewies? I am sort of worried/curious that the TC accidentally set that ball in motion a hair - their orders until Lyrans showed up was to build up their defenses...
"Independents". (Note the colour.) Though I look forward to the grotesque, horrible, and humourous diminutives people cook up for it.
Browncoats. And I want to see a Balls & Bayonets Brigade led by a one M. Reynolds.
GMs, except for the OOC, I ask that my small GC part be repaired. THe reaction of my Khans is still thus as Schmitt brought up an internal issue of the Clan.
It had nothing to do with the rest of the more problematic stuff.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 02, 2010, 11:52:29 PM
Spoons are better. You disembowel someone with a fork your just mad.
You disembowel someone with a spoon and they know you really mean it.
You haven't really mastered disembowelment until you've used a three-inch elbar toothpick.
LOL Sould I be offended in character with the UIW's appearance heck yeah...The Commonwealth is shattered etc, etc. Bobby K Steiner has bigger fish to fry. I came back to the game so to speak to have some fun with people I cannot interact with at this level on CBT.com you all should know who you are. The faction of the LC I took for this game was an easy choice. I get to wheel and deal my way to the Archonship and howl with outrage at the status of the Commonwealth and if I survive long enough and make the right choices I could possibly get the LC pre clan back...(good luck there,right?) It's a challenge yes but remotely possible. As for the RWR I'm down with having some fantastic RP (that goes for all of you) so let's have fun.
Quote from: Jeyar on July 02, 2010, 06:16:36 PM
Actually some clans HAVE been directly informed about the Dark.
I'd almost want a list of the factions that would claim they HAVEN'T been. >:(
All Clans are aware of the presence of the Dark and that they have at least seven Warships. As per:
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61948.64
This has been a news brief by your local Horse Alliance service provider :)
Hello all. This message is to remind everyone that the map updates thread is for map updates and nothing else. I have moved all OOC chatter from that thread into this one.
Thank you.
-Josh
Just an FYI for all. The GC thread will be resolved Sunday (tomorrow), as Dave and I have put time aside to go over the issue together in detail. Please send, by PM, any questions/concerns you may have on the issue to both Dave and myself prior to noon EST tomorrow.
PS- Please mark all threads that you have completed as *Complete* so that it is easier for Dave and myself to finish off the open ones. I plan finishing all open threads tomorrow after the GC thing is resolved so you have until then to finish what you can.Quote from: Marlin on July 03, 2010, 08:13:51 AM
GMs, except for the OOC, I ask that my small GC part be repaired. THe reaction of my Khans is still thus as Schmitt brought up an internal issue of the Clan.
It had nothing to do with the rest of the more problematic stuff.
To All:
In reference to the WiE/Wolf merger, I would ask that major role plays be held off on. As it is, I believe that the Falcon and ilKhan announcements have yet to occur, since they are turn 41. I will have a response up for Turn 40 soon, which will allow more in depth in character responses. This will help prevent timing issues.
The timing is designed to imply that they were actually recorded now, but broadcast later on.
Well, right now, the facts that are known is that someone broadcast from Tamar the one message, the information about the CG vote, and that is about it. I am not sure if the information about standing aside from the Khan position of the Wolves will be known yet.
Well, it happened in a public forum. I would presume that similar to a meeting of congress in the US, there is a transcript of everything that happens in the general meetings of the SLDF council, which would include the voting session. Its a big deal to appoint a new general, especially to replace someone like Victor, whose essentially the greatest IS general since Aleksander Kerensky. So yeah, that would be talked about by everyone: the flunkies would discuss it, the ComStar guys would talk about it, the news agencies would plaster it everywhere. Being appointed as General is a big deal, but stepping down as Khan would most likly be news aswell. It would be met as important to the political circles, if not immediatly important to the average citizens. But the Clans would, in my opinion(and obviously the Falcon's) a point of extreme importance.
The only logical way to avoid it getting out to be public would be to have either have the nominee's be kept secret, or the outcome kept secret for a period of time untill Hall got settled in...but from reading the thread, there was no discussion of trying to quash knowlage of Marco's appointment: therefore, i'd have to argue that the general public of the IS would find out relativly quickly, and the Clans would be able to get that information.
Of course it is Dave's and Little's call, but technically, we are in 41. Turn 40 did not get an extension. Besides, the results of the SLHC vote were broadcast in 40. I can see the argument against the IlKhan's message, but not the SL announcement.
Tje events and conversations in the sl and gc I had always assumed were NOT IC public knowledge, unless someone splashed them out.
SL vote was broadcast...look at the News Thread.
Yes, Ledos statement was broadcast. But, there is no word about Marco standing down as Khan, etc.
Quote from: NVA on July 03, 2010, 10:28:05 PM
Yes, Ledos statement was broadcast. But, there is no word about Marco standing down as Khan, etc.
And where has anyone, IC, said he has among the Clans? What is your point?
Turn 41...Special broadcast.
Exactly: turn 41, after a period of time has passed, after Marco Hall has had time to both be elected and step down. I don't see the issue with the broadcast. But if your argument is that because you didn't explicitly tell everyone about the entire proceedings of the SL Council meeting, then you shouldn't have made a post in the IS News Thread.
By posting a headline in that thread, you imply that there is some type of news coverage in the SLDF Council: basing off the US and most European govornments currently, I'd say theres full on news cameras and paper reporters allowed inside. They'll consider something like a Clan Khan being elected general very important, front page news. Likewise, his stepping down as his Clan's Khan would be in that news report: it was a part of his acceptance speech. If he had done it at some other time, when it wasn't such a public setting, I would agree that it wouldn't be widespread knowlage. But by announcing it in a public setting, and then posting evidence of the news coverage of the event, you allowed for the information to be disseminated.
So, yes: you did tell everyone. If your going to argue that the IS's news networks are going to tell everyone that Marco Hall, Wolf-in-Exile Khan was elected SLDF Commanding General, but NOT tell the part about where Hall steps down as Khan, I would disagree vehemently. There are only headlines with basic outlines of events in that thread- there are no full news stories, they are supposed to be snippets from larger publications or broadcasts, so arguing that you didn't explicity state he was stepping down don't matter- it happened at the same time as the main story, and would be included.
Ah, and here I was going to start coming up with a host of rumours about having a Khan in command of the SLDF, how the Wolves might change the tenor of operations, and whether or not the 'new' SLDF was doomed to become another Clan instrument-you know, get some controversy up and stuff...as in "IN character" controversy, instead of this "OUT of character" controversy that's got everyone in an uproar...
If there is an uproar, I'm not aware of it. Its a calm discussion about whether or not the exact details of Marco Hall's actions are public knowledge. As far as I am concerned, its a good move for the SLDF to make him general(and might do some good in their war against the Clans, though it won't help you, mwuahah! :P) Its still a friendly discussion, unless there's been some behind the scenes talk I'm not aware of.
One announcement of one speech by one representative was made. If you note in the al thread sp, he specifically told them to broadcast his speech. The SL council and the GC have the same privacy expectations. Unless something is specifically posted, it is not public knowledge. You are suggesting that there has been more coverage of it. So far, that one post and what it made public are all that is known.
Wait, so Hall told them to broadcast his speech? Isn't that where he told them he stepped down as Khan? I guess my point is that it doesn't make sense to me to argue that the SL meetings are all super secret, and that nobody knows what goes on inside except for the members of the council itself. Regardless, word of mouth would make the news travel fast: again, a Khan stepping down is a big deal.
Choose your method of transfer, you can't tell me that nobody outside that room knows. There will be a paper trail: the promotion of the new Khan among the Exiles: the SLDF generals will most likly be discussing taking orders from a Clanner who isn't really a Clanner anymore. I'll conceed that there is a slight possibility that there is no direct news coverage of the speech...slight possibility. But either way, people talk. Its not like a secret project in a facility where the only people who know whats going on arn't leaving the building or something. Theres visible repercussions of his stepping down.
NVA does have a point about the SLHC having the same privacy "protections" as the GC. However, it has been a week in RL, and two weeks in game time. Rumors would be flying, and there will be a crap load of chatter going on and any Clan sharing space with the Wolves would be hearing. So I agree that Daemon should change the wording to at least it is rumored that Hall stepped down
But to say imply that there is absolutely no kind of chatter about Hall stepping down after two weeks of game time? Yeah, that is a touch ridiculous.
Thats why it is posted not in turn 40, but in turn 41- it is recorded, but it is held back to reflect the time being taken to confirm, and ensure that the facts are there. Techniclly, it still hasn't happened yet.
And yet it is posted. My request was to wait to post those things. My request was to be able to have time to deal with real life and holidays to get the posts out. For one, there will be an official announcement that the clans will be able to respond to. But, I have been busy irl. I would appreciate the courtesy of respecting the request, rather than continued debate. I acknowledge that no new posts have been made and I thank everyone. I am done discussing the security of the SL council, etc, and rather we get to know everything via rumor, etc.
Umm...We are in 41. At least to the best of my knowledge... Which is known to be wildly unreliable... ;)
Ah, see I was under the impression that the turn didn't offically start untill the orders were passed in. If that isn't that case, it's my own mis-interpertation.
And I posted if prior to you requesting that nobody say anything about the Trial NVA.
Just to clarify things a little bit here. The post in the INN and in the Chatterweb went up almost immediately after the speech that Ledo gave. The INN one is unkown where it came from the Chatterweb message came from Grummium and not Tamar. The user did not attempt to hide the location of the hosting planet of the connection.
As for this other post I am going to look now at it and will make a ruling soon.
On the Marco Hall situation, it seems to me unlikely that any faction would be able to conceal a change in its top leadership for any length of time without actually spending RP to run a Dissemeniate Domestic Disinformation mission. If it is the intention of WIE to do this in turn 41 then NVA probably has a point about the thread being premature. However, if the WIE is not going to make a roll for this than I see no reason to not let the post stand.
In other words: NVA, please send me a PM if you are going to try to conceal the change of leadership.
Also, Josh is telling me he is opening up the turn 41 cyclical RP threads, so please move your RP to those. I will be unlocking the GC in a moment with a resolution to the issue regarding the last RP that was posted there.
I am not attempting to conceal it. I asked OOC for IRL time to post the announcement. First, there has been no change yet. Secondly, I have not had time. It will be posted and public. This was an OOC request for time and courtesy to allow me a chance to make my posts. If that is asking more than is reasonable, my apologies.
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 12:03:58 AM
I am not attempting to conceal it. I asked OOC for IRL time to post the announcement. First, there has been no change yet. Secondly, I have not had time. It will be posted and public. This was an OOC request for time and courtesy to allow me a chance to make my posts. If that is asking more than is reasonable, my apologies.
I guess I am confused then - I was under the impression that Marco Hall had stepped down as Khan based on the post you made in response to Hall being elected Commanding General.
Was this in error?
If so, then yes - the details of what you posted in the Star League Council would not be general knowledge (indeed everything else would not be general knowledge anyway).
Marco made his announcement to the SL Council only, so far. So, that statement should be private, per my understanding. The rest of the storyline still has to be done, which will include the announcements that people will be able to respond to. Again, this is an OOC timing issue more than IC. I am where I don't have great access to do the posts...Or time.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on July 05, 2010, 12:11:06 AM
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 12:03:58 AM
I am not attempting to conceal it. I asked OOC for IRL time to post the announcement. First, there has been no change yet. Secondly, I have not had time. It will be posted and public. This was an OOC request for time and courtesy to allow me a chance to make my posts. If that is asking more than is reasonable, my apologies.
I guess I am confused then - I was under the impression that Marco Hall had stepped down as Khan based on the post you made in response to Hall being elected Commanding General.
Was this in error?
If so, then yes - the details of what you posted in the Star League Council would not be general knowledge (indeed everything else would not be general knowledge anyway).
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 01:35:34 AM
Marco made his announcement to the SL Council only, so far. So, that statement should be private, per my understanding. The rest of the storyline still has to be done, which will include the announcements that people will be able to respond to. Again, this is an OOC timing issue more than IC. I am where I don't have great access to do the posts...Or time.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on July 05, 2010, 12:11:06 AM
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 12:03:58 AM
I am not attempting to conceal it. I asked OOC for IRL time to post the announcement. First, there has been no change yet. Secondly, I have not had time. It will be posted and public. This was an OOC request for time and courtesy to allow me a chance to make my posts. If that is asking more than is reasonable, my apologies.
I guess I am confused then - I was under the impression that Marco Hall had stepped down as Khan based on the post you made in response to Hall being elected Commanding General.
Was this in error?
If so, then yes - the details of what you posted in the Star League Council would not be general knowledge (indeed everything else would not be general knowledge anyway).
OK, I think I see why people were confused then. A lot of folks (myself included) took your post to indicate that Hall had, in fact, already stepped down as Khan. If he is still Khan as of the start of Turn 41, then it is true no one outside the SL Council would know he has said he will do so.
Quote from: NVA on July 01, 2010, 03:20:35 PM
Effective immediately, I have relinquished my position as Khan of Clan Wolf.
How can be possibly still be Khan in turn 41, if this is in the turn 40 SL Council thread??
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 05, 2010, 02:53:36 AM
Quote from: NVA on July 01, 2010, 03:20:35 PM
Effective immediately, I have relinquished my position as Khan of Clan Wolf.
How can be possibly still be Khan in turn 41, if this is in the turn 40 SL Council thread??
OK, this is what I get for not checking back threads before posting. NVA, can you please PM me and Josh and give us the full details of what is happening before I insert my foot any further into my mouth?
*sigh*
Let me try again. Real life has prevented me from time to do the IC posts. If players are so eager to push forward that they cannot wait, then ignore my OOC request. Just don't be surprised if the end result invalidates your posts before I have time. It is a holiday weekend and I am unable to post long IC RPs. I simply asked for an OOC courtesy.
Nobody is posting anything, we're just trying to figure out what is actually known or unknown.
You see you have your known unknowns, you have your unknown knowns.
But the really tricky part is there are these unknown unknowns that are out there to bite you.
My read?
- Election to Commanding General is out there.
- Absorption trial and its results are out there.
- Marco Hall stepping down? not out there.
----------------
But lets be honest...it doesn't matter or change much of anything.
Clan WiE took over Clan Wolf. Their leadership is taking over wither its Fetradl or Hall it changes little. Hall being Commanding General will gain the WiE no cred with the Grand Council. His stepping down from Clan Wolf Khan will effect a Grand Council vote not at all.
Can someone really tell me how whether or not Hall steps down will matter even a wit to how the Clans or the Inner Sphere react?
As the FWL he stepped down and...I didn't care as I expect him to show favoritism to the Wolves anyway.
As a Blood Spirit. The WiE are still just half a step above the not named. and 5 steps down from a freeborn. I'd be voting for it. Well if I could vote right now, it wouldn't effect my vote at all.
Nothing personal. And I am sure I will love reading your RP. But your not going to talk your way out of what I'm sure is going to be a couple of stacks of doom in the Clan Home Worlds and in the Inner Sphere. So why should everyone hold up until then?
My condolences to you on whatever real life concerns are confronting you I just don't see how anything your going to post is going to effect the general direction of what happens next. Might make it go from a Trial of Absorption to a Trial of Annihilation but I think we are well past the "Give the Wolves the benefit of the doubt" territory.
At the risk of inflaming some players against me, I'm going to say it...
It's easier to go after the Wolves, or the (Fragmented) Lyrans, or the UIW, than it is to go after the Terrans/Blood/Not-Named. Easier. Just like it is easier to go after someone else's homeworld holdings, than to come to the Inner Sphere, make the Hostile Transit rolls, and go after the Not Named directly, or to cut "Hunting" orders to go after their forces in the field, or to cut Intel orders to locate their forces...
Easier. Because while the in-character mission might be to finish the Annihilation, the OOC mission, is to rack up big occupation zones as cheaply as possible, while avoiding a repeat of the visit by Apollyon and his horror-movie butcher crew upon the Falcons a few turns ago.
(yeah, I read the Clan sections, including the IC stuff...)
Only, so far, ONE clan (Star Adder) is doing this as an in-character "Plan" (they were doing it BEFORE news of the Not-Named was broken), notably, they've treated against forces when I ran them, with actual Clan behaviours-including offering the chance of Honourable battle, and Hegira when orders from the IlKhan made it necessary to break their bid.
Likewise with the "New guy" in the Jade Falcons (Daemonknight), who displayed the strict honour the Falcons had in Canon, when he honoured the request by the Baker 3 Task force's interim commander to withdraw honourably when circumstances dictated that they abort their invasion of that world.
Crusaders acting like...Crusaders, instead of...what I saw in the Grand Council threads as a reader, is rare, I wish it had some tangible reward in-game, because honestly what I see from most of the Grand Council members/players is more suited to the Inner Sphere than the Clans.
I have no doubt that this turn, when the orders are cut, the Wolves are going to face OMGWTFPOWNED doomstacks with neither Zellbriggen, nor quarter offered or accepted...because what's easier, is to go after the Wolves, than the Terrans. (just as it's easier to go after everyone else, than the Terrans.)
What has been conspicuous, in fact, is the active avoidance of Terran/Not Named forces, not the pursuit of them. THIS will continue, because the Players are reluctant to risk their forces knowing full well that their Clan Brothers will stab them in the back...and do so with glee and self-congratulation.
only the Adders, so far, have shown any strategy to what they're doing, and that strategy has more to do with pre-revelation policies, and has netted them serious benefits (Doubling your OZ without firing a shot is a serious net benefit, obtaining direct access to Inner Sphere data and communications that are current to help your Watch find their targets? serious benefit. Gaining proximity to Terra that allows something more than a one-shot raid? serious benefit. They're the only Crusader Clan in striking range, and they don't have to fight through half the LC to get there-they've gotten it without firing a shot, which means they've got more force to apply to the root of the problem before the TH can pull its fleets from the front to defend their Homeland...)
Notably, their strategies have NOT been Orbombing cities, using Nukes, or slaughtering civilians-they show an awareness of public relations that is, at times, almost scarily effective, and they think their moves out in ways that focus for best results rather than just lashing out at anyone that offends them, could offend them, or might offend them. Had they acted in the butcher's manner as previous Falcon players (who aren't playing Falcons anymore since the faction's been so devastated) did, likely the map for Turn 41 would have more Rimjob Red, FWL Purple, or Skye Green...or even Arc Royal blue, instead of a Clan Collaborator mini-state running from Alarion to Coventry and containing much of the LC's remaining industrial base. Graegor and Dis have shown not only the personality characteristics, but fleshed out the Canon reference to Clanners being "Strategic Geniuses" (Invading Clans sourcebook, Warriors of Kerensky...) Their strategy has WORKED, and they may well have Terra checkmated all on their own while the bulk of the other Clans are still backbiting or recovering from prior, less effective management.
Daemonknight's picked up my admiration-he didn't have to do what he did in the aftermath of Baker 3, he acted not only honorably in the tradition of a Crusader, but with practicality of someone who's got enough strategic awareness to 'get' why Hegira exists in the first place, he conserved his forces for the REAL enemy to come, instead of wasting them on vanity. Very Falcon, in my opinion.
NOw, as for myself, I've probably just written my own faction's epitaph, likely a 'coming attraction', this turn or next. But all the above, is why I don't play Clan in the FGC-by temperament, I'm a Crusader player, but I'm not the sort of player I have just blasted with this rant-The Grand Crusade is a war of Ideals, Dogmas, and Beliefs, while I don't share those beliefs in real life, I understand how Zealots work, and they aren't all unthinkingly vicious, treacherous, or out for number one. Were I playing a Clan, I'd be ass-deep in challenges by the second turn.
Well, nothing like someone looking down their nose at you at three in the morning to make you take what they have to say at all seriously. Maybe people should stop trying to tell others, either directly or (in this case) indirectly, how to run their factions. It's the height of arrogance, especially to do so at such unnecessary length. Just FYI.
If that wasm't the intent of what you meant to actually say, well, I can hardly be faulted for reading it that way in the first place. I have my issues with the way some people play their factions, for sure, but I don't think I'd go on a page-long diatribe analyzing it for... what WAS the point of that, exactly?
Don't take this as overtly hostile Canon, but you have no idea what you are talking about if you say that the attacks in the Inner Sphere have no strategy behind them. There are long discussions each turn about what targets Clans are considering, which of the 'primary' targets(which i cannot obviously name here) are going to be considered and addressed this turn and whatnot.
To say that if the Clans were to go after the Wolves because its 'easier' than going after the Terrans, rather than for legitimate reasons, is unfair. Look at what the Exiles did: they spat in the face of everything the Clans stand for: they essentially fought a Trial of Refusal against the original Abjuration of the Exiles. While thats all well and good, all that means is that the Exiles would still be considered a Clan, and not the Inner Sphere lapdogs that they have been. So, by winning the Trial, they overturn the Abjuration: cool. However, the rest of the crap they added on is what is insulting and downright unClanlike.
I) The force Clan Wolf to be combined with the Exiles: there is no Trial to compell action within Clan society. There are Trials for status, Trials to determine rank, to determine honor, but nothing to compel action, and certinly nothing to force a Clan's warriors to integrate with an Inner Sphere power.
II) They show complete and utter disregard for the methods of determining the leadership of the Clan. If Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile are now one, that makes them Clan Wolf still. Whoever Clan Wolf's Khan was would be the Khan of the newly united Clan, unless killed, in which case it would pass to the saKhan. If both are dead, it passes to the Clan's Warrior Council to elect a new one from among the Bloodnamed warrior's, which would now include the Exiles. However, instead of doing that, Marco Hall didn't even make a token attempt at alluding to that, he instead just declared himself to be the Khan. Basiclly, Marco Hall took a respectable Clan, merged it with a dishonored scion of a clan that tried to claim legitimacy, and then turned it into a Successor House-Clan.
So, the GC Clans have more than enough IC reasons to be morally, ethiclly, philisophiclly and every other lly insulted and feel like they've been slighted: and in Clan society, that demands a response. So, it would be worse to see NO response from the aggressive Clans.
On the subject of 'avoiding' the Terrans: The problem that faces many Clan forces, isn't that we don't want to run intel missions to find forces: that happens often enough. The problem is that we don't always have forces sizeable enough to face them. It makes no sense, even for a Clanner, to try and face down a Hegemoney fleet outnumbered 2: or 3:1, especially those of us with less than optimal naval assets.
I guess CS, that you are looking in from the outside without the full view of what goes on behind the scenes, and that is why it might look as if the behaviour is unClan-like. Its ammassing forces to combat the massive forces that the Terran fleets possess. So please please please: don't bash the Clans for not being Clan-like when it comes to persuing the Terrans...on that subject, I have to say, you really just don't know what you are talking about...but thats because you can't, because you have no access to the info that would dispell your assumptions.
As to the GC...well, I'm working on that. Hopefully I can get that under control.
Guys please tone it down a notch or two here. We do not need OOC tempers flaring. This is just a game and if you feel that someone's tactics in game are not the way you would play then leave it at that and let them make the "mistakes" that you feel they are making. Just remember that everyone has different strategies for different situations and not all these strategies are out in the open for all to see.
-Josh
Just trying to explain why it might seem the way it does. I wasn't trying to be hostile.
Not pointing any fingers here. Just trying to stop any bad blood from begining to boil.
CS, I'm with Daemonknight, with a small caveat. Not only am I not sure you know what you're talking about. I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.
If you have any specific critiques of how I'm managing my Clan, my Khans, or the GL, I'd be glad to hear them in PM.
Understand, we are going after the Wolves. And we're not doing it because it's easy but because this is, as you said, a war of ideals. We now have yet another clear ideological enemy in our homeworlds. That is something we have to do something about. I'm in an especially sticky spot because I'm apparently deeply entangled with said enemy. I still haven't figured out quite how I'm going to deal with it.
And I don't know about doom-stacks. I'll bring enough force to do the job. As to Zellbrigen, though, the Ghost Bears haven't been big on that in canon since early in the Invasion.
1 - WiE and RD have essentially been on the same side for a LONG time. Not the Terran or GC side, but somewhere in the middle.
2 - Just as a few have suggested that Cannon is way off base because he doesn't know, so too are the beliefs of what happened on Tamar. Both sides wanted this trial. the victor would lead the unified Wolf. How much more clan than that can you get?
NVA, what you guys did is about as far from Clan as you can get. You didn't conduct a Trial! You can't just head into combat, set some sort of outcome, and call it a Trial, thats not how it works. The Trial system is rigid: it only works in so many ways, and the way you used it isn't even remotely one of them. The closest thing you could do to what you've attempted, would be to Refuse the original Abjuration of the Exiles...but that wouldn't re-combine the Wolves, and most certinly wouldn't give the Exiles control over them!
I've gone over this, you just don't want to agree with me. What you did, wasn't Clan. It was "we have a unique situation, so we're going to have ourselves a private fight(once our friends the Terrans are overhead to protect us of course), and then slap a 'Trial' label on the fight to try and give it some legitimacy". And the only reason it's allowed is because Dave and Josh don't like to restrict RP, and give everyone a massivly wide berth: if they held everyone to within the realm of cannon possibility, what you did would never even have been allowed to be considered, let alone actually discussed. But it happened, and apparently the only way that the GC can right the glaring wrong you've committed in their eyes, is to Refuse the Trial...and if you decide that you're above the Grand Council(also unClanlike), then they'll have no choice but to get rid of you...preferably through Absorbtion, so that your warriors are put to the use they should've been this whole time, instead of consorting with the Not-Named...something else thats not in keeping with Clan-like behavior: consorting with an enemy of the Clans(those Abjurred from the Grand Council).
So to answer your question: you can get ALOT more Clan.
Oh...I don't know...How about actually following Clan Law? Whether or not you agree with the Grand Council, that trial (lower case t intended) violated the letter of Clan Law. Hell, it could be argued that it was a violation of the spirit of Clan Law as well. But you are going to do what you are going to do, so any further talk on it is folly.
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 05, 2010, 08:12:57 AM
At the risk of inflaming some players against me, I'm going to say it...
It's easier to go after the Wolves, or the (Fragmented) Lyrans, or the UIW, than it is to go after the Terrans/Blood/Not-Named. Easier. Just like it is easier to go after someone else's homeworld holdings, than to come to the Inner Sphere, make the Hostile Transit rolls, and go after the Not Named directly, or to cut "Hunting" orders to go after their forces in the field, or to cut Intel orders to locate their forces...
Easier. Because while the in-character mission might be to finish the Annihilation, the OOC mission, is to rack up big occupation zones as cheaply as possible, while avoiding a repeat of the visit by Apollyon and his horror-movie butcher crew upon the Falcons a few turns ago.
(yeah, I read the Clan sections, including the IC stuff...)
Only, so far, ONE clan (Star Adder) is doing this as an in-character "Plan" (they were doing it BEFORE news of the Not-Named was broken), notably, they've treated against forces when I ran them, with actual Clan behaviours-including offering the chance of Honourable battle, and Hegira when orders from the IlKhan made it necessary to break their bid.
Likewise with the "New guy" in the Jade Falcons (Daemonknight), who displayed the strict honour the Falcons had in Canon, when he honoured the request by the Baker 3 Task force's interim commander to withdraw honourably when circumstances dictated that they abort their invasion of that world.
Crusaders acting like...Crusaders, instead of...what I saw in the Grand Council threads as a reader, is rare, I wish it had some tangible reward in-game, because honestly what I see from most of the Grand Council members/players is more suited to the Inner Sphere than the Clans.
I have no doubt that this turn, when the orders are cut, the Wolves are going to face OMGWTFPOWNED doomstacks with neither Zellbriggen, nor quarter offered or accepted...because what's easier, is to go after the Wolves, than the Terrans. (just as it's easier to go after everyone else, than the Terrans.)
What has been conspicuous, in fact, is the active avoidance of Terran/Not Named forces, not the pursuit of them. THIS will continue, because the Players are reluctant to risk their forces knowing full well that their Clan Brothers will stab them in the back...and do so with glee and self-congratulation.
only the Adders, so far, have shown any strategy to what they're doing, and that strategy has more to do with pre-revelation policies, and has netted them serious benefits (Doubling your OZ without firing a shot is a serious net benefit, obtaining direct access to Inner Sphere data and communications that are current to help your Watch find their targets? serious benefit. Gaining proximity to Terra that allows something more than a one-shot raid? serious benefit. They're the only Crusader Clan in striking range, and they don't have to fight through half the LC to get there-they've gotten it without firing a shot, which means they've got more force to apply to the root of the problem before the TH can pull its fleets from the front to defend their Homeland...)
Notably, their strategies have NOT been Orbombing cities, using Nukes, or slaughtering civilians-they show an awareness of public relations that is, at times, almost scarily effective, and they think their moves out in ways that focus for best results rather than just lashing out at anyone that offends them, could offend them, or might offend them. Had they acted in the butcher's manner as previous Falcon players (who aren't playing Falcons anymore since the faction's been so devastated) did, likely the map for Turn 41 would have more Rimjob Red, FWL Purple, or Skye Green...or even Arc Royal blue, instead of a Clan Collaborator mini-state running from Alarion to Coventry and containing much of the LC's remaining industrial base. Graegor and Dis have shown not only the personality characteristics, but fleshed out the Canon reference to Clanners being "Strategic Geniuses" (Invading Clans sourcebook, Warriors of Kerensky...) Their strategy has WORKED, and they may well have Terra checkmated all on their own while the bulk of the other Clans are still backbiting or recovering from prior, less effective management.
Daemonknight's picked up my admiration-he didn't have to do what he did in the aftermath of Baker 3, he acted not only honorably in the tradition of a Crusader, but with practicality of someone who's got enough strategic awareness to 'get' why Hegira exists in the first place, he conserved his forces for the REAL enemy to come, instead of wasting them on vanity. Very Falcon, in my opinion.
NOw, as for myself, I've probably just written my own faction's epitaph, likely a 'coming attraction', this turn or next. But all the above, is why I don't play Clan in the FGC-by temperament, I'm a Crusader player, but I'm not the sort of player I have just blasted with this rant-The Grand Crusade is a war of Ideals, Dogmas, and Beliefs, while I don't share those beliefs in real life, I understand how Zealots work, and they aren't all unthinkingly vicious, treacherous, or out for number one. Were I playing a Clan, I'd be ass-deep in challenges by the second turn.
Hey, The Blood Spirits and a few others (Cough Steel Vipers) do act like real clans.
We render real trials, and we abide by the results on the field of honor.
Besides I fully understand the RD wanting to get the fight against the Wolves in the Inner Sphere. After all there are several factories in the RD as guest facilities.
As for the Adders they have become the victims of their own success. Their new territory is heavily interdicted this effects their overall RP generation for ALL their holdings including the Homeworlds, until they can fix it (Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).
Some of you have asked Dave why the thread tree is not showing on the bottom and only showing on the top. I have found the setting and this is how you do it:
1) Go into Profile.
2) Go into Look and Layout
3) Choose the following setting as on: "Show child boards on every page inside boards, not just the first."
4) Click Change Profile
Now you will have the thread tree on the top and bottom.
PS- Unfortunately this is not for each thread just for all sub forums. :-[
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
1 - WiE and RD have essentially been on the same side for a LONG time. Not the Terran or GC side, but somewhere in the middle.
That middle, of course, is simply cynical survivalism, an attempt to minimise conflict while grabbing as much as we can -- building power for its own sake and not to any specific purpose. Deny it if you like, but that's how the RD's been managed as far back as I have information. It has recently become policy in the RD to exclude the middle. The Terrans must be destroyed and the Grand Council preserved. Anything that strikes against the second (such as your ToW) also strikes against the first.
IC what that amounts to is Ghost Bear warriors finally having enough of getting less and less like themselves and Rasalhague citizens finally coming to a realisation of how their moral responsiblity differs from what it was now that they are a superpower. It's a kind of cultural epiphany, one the present Khan has ridden into office.
It's not that I'm not still willing to work with you or keep you out of the war -- I'm trying to work similar deals with at least two Successor States and considering trying to negotiate it between the Grand Council and the Star League -- but I can't actually tolerate what you did on Tamar. There are going to be repercussions.
Speaking of which, how's that briefing I asked for coming along?
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
2 - Just as a few have suggested that Cannon is way off base because he doesn't know, so too are the beliefs of what happened on Tamar. Both sides wanted this trial. the victor would lead the unified Wolf. How much more clan than that can you get?
Something that actually embraced Clan Law in its construction and did not constitute treason in its outcome would be a
great start.
I have done a bunch of SimRes. Could you all please check your threads and then mark them as *Complete*.
2 parts of a whole followed different paths for a time. They realized neither could stand on its own. The warrior councils of both halves decided they were strong enough to risk the trial. Both knew losing would validate the others path, which is what the challenge was. You said it, only one Khan. So, the losing Khan steps down. The warrior council of the loser follows the winners path. Might has proven the path to follow. Done without the total warfare the clans have been fighting with lately. It is an internal Wolf matter, beyond the perview of the Grand Council normally. To justify the Falcon abjurement means the clans accept their defacto absorbtion. Only way that one works in the GC. Meaning, a clan can absorb another without approval of the gc. It isn't black and white. I see your arguments. The warriors of the Tamar Wolves took a risk and lost in honorable combat. Most will follow the outcome of the trial.
PS - It is a fact that the TH did not arrive until the trial was completed.
I just want to make sure that I have this correctly - according to the Steiner Housebooks old and new, nobles with a title higher than Baron are not permitted to sit on the Estates General; this bars Landsgräfin Sharon Mulcahy from being a member of the body directly, yes? She might be the driving force behind the Arc Royal Estates General and many of the replacement delegates were "legally appointed" on toady credentials, but she's not the speaker. I'll have to figure out a name for the Speaker of the Assembly later, if I'm right on this. A Landsgräf is more or less a count, yes?
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 01:51:21 PM
(Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).
It is a separate state, though with an Adder leading it, we'll be working together to some extent as expected.
We were as surprised as the rest when the map came out. I had to scrap plans to have another go at Coventry in a few cycles. We still have no idea how many forces declared for Charlie, so who knows, some of those units might end up there as a garrison anyways. ;D
NVA, how can you make an argument like "its an internal Wolf matter" when you are changing the allegiance of an entire Clan? That makes no sense. Its not an internal matter. You might like to view it that way personally, but its not an internal matter, not at all.
Quote from: DisGruntled on July 05, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 01:51:21 PM
(Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).
It is a separate state, though with an Adder leading it, we'll be working together to some extent as expected.
We were as surprised as the rest when the map came out. I had to scrap plans to have another go at Coventry in a few cycles. We still have no idea how many forces declared for Charlie, so who knows, some of those units might end up there as a garrison anyways. ;D
more or less what Dis said
I'm going to be using it as a learning experience for myself when it comes to writing up orders and whatnot (I expect to be getting lots of tips/pointers from Dis and IM until I have a decent hang of that)
so in effect Charlie will be running the show how he wants, or how the Cards tell him to run things (ie, me getting advice from Dis and IM, then probably going on my own twisted tangent...lol)
I've got a basic, broad plan in mind, but quite a bit of it will depend on how many former Lyran units shift to Charlie's Adder Commonwealth (that may, or may not, be the official name, just using it for the time being, since Charlie used it in his address to the Lyran People) as this will impact how much support he would require from the Adders in order to stabilize the area
I will also be addressing other issues that have arisen in many areas, through several PMs (those who sent them know who they are), later tonight. Dis and IM are aware of my revised schedule due to finally finding a job (working graveyard shift, and Im about to fall asleep at my desk)
so until I get at least 6 hours of sleep, dont blow up the known universe...Id at least like to be present if that happens
night night
I want to say that I appreciate the Feedback of Cannon's and yes, he is working with less information than the Clan Players.
I am also not offended by his assumptions. I know that the Hellions are depicted differently in Canon, but I have some arguments for my viewpoints.
I appreciate any feedback on Clan playing. (if its constructive ;) ) Just sayin.
And I admire the Adders for what they already accomplished (also before), just look at my Avatar, from where I come. ;)
Lastly let me add: August, welcome back, although your reign will not make it easier for me, nice RP so far. By all Lyrans, that is.
I do find it amusing that the Bears' surkai for their outright treason, the Scorpions' nuking of another Clan, and the Hellions eliminating an entire caste (FYI, Marlin, for such a "Clanlike" Clan, that's one of the biggest crimes you could possibly commit) have yet to be dealt with in ANY way, and the GC's already moving on to dealing with the Wolves. All this condemnation for NVA, and yet every single person who's condemned him has done AS bad, if not worse, with their own actions. Clan hypocrisy at its ugliest.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:12:39 PM
I do find it amusing that the Bears' surkai for their outright treason, the Scorpions' nuking of another Clan, and the Hellions eliminating an entire caste (FYI, Marlin, for such a "Clanlike" Clan, that's one of the biggest crimes you could possibly commit) have yet to be dealt with in ANY way, and the GC's already moving on to dealing with the Wolves. All this condemnation for NVA, and yet every single person who's condemned him has done AS bad, if not worse, with their own actions. Clan hypocrisy at its ugliest.
Actually, that is in no part true.
The Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)
The Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.
The Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 02:52:40 PM
2 parts of a whole followed different paths for a time.
Save that, for the entire intervening period, that whole had entirely ceased to exist.
The GC Wolves were not members of the old Wolf Clan (having gone through three Clans and two "generations" since) and the SL Wolves were not members of the Grand Council, being Abjured in two illegal ways and having a verdict of genocide against them.
Quote from: NVA on July 05, 2010, 02:52:40 PM
It is an internal Wolf matter, beyond the perview of the Grand Council normally.
Yes, in precisely the same way that the Abjurement was an internal Jade Falcon matter (despite involving Wolves) and the Capellan invasion of St. Ives was an internal Capellan matter (despite involving another SL member.) This is a matter that is
in no meaningful way internal and impacts the GC both directly and indirectly. It has been reviewed by the Grand Loremaster and the ilKhan and has been voided. Any Wolf warriors continuing down this path are guilty of treason.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 04:19:29 PM
Actually, that is in no part true.
Really? Let's see.
QuoteThe Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)
The Clans wouldn't really care about that. Your Clan still committed the treason, despite who was in charge at the time of it being committed. Especially where the TH/Blood is concerned.
Oh, and then there's that small matter of the oath all Ghost Bears take to stomp the Not-Named at the first opportunity. You should be falling over yourself to slit your own throats for failing that oath for so long.
And don't even get me started on the sheer ludicrous stupidity of an act of surkairede being
negotiated.
QuoteThe Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.
Um, no, they weren't. The Khan just claimed "they aren't mine". Does that mean, then, that I could come in and nuke Strana Mechty, and then claim that "well, they aren't mine"? If so, let me know so I can change my order sheet for Turn 41.
QuoteThe Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.
Are you kidding me with this? The Clans ARE required to maintain the five castes, as the Founder himself laid down. "Betrayal of Ideals" alone makes that clear when McEvedy was ordered to move everyone back to their proper caste by Nicholas. The Hellions have essentially done what McEvedy did: moved castemen from one caste to another for arbitrary reasons. I'm more than confident that you're 100% wrong on this one... the caste system is set in stone.
Then again, the Bears let people choose their caste, so you're hardly an authority on what the Clans are required to do, caste-wise, since you're committing the same crime they are.
Quote from: august on July 05, 2010, 03:11:50 PM
I just want to make sure that I have this correctly - according to the Steiner Housebooks old and new, nobles with a title higher than Baron are not permitted to sit on the Estates General; this bars Landsgräfin Sharon Mulcahy from being a member of the body directly, yes? She might be the driving force behind the Arc Royal Estates General and many of the replacement delegates were "legally appointed" on toady credentials, but she's not the speaker. I'll have to figure out a name for the Speaker of the Assembly later, if I'm right on this. A Landsgräf is more or less a count, yes?
+1 for finding Steiner trivia I was unaware of. This would be accurate - if her rank is too high for her to legally sit in the EG, then she wouldn't be a formal member. A Landsgraf is several bumps above Baron (Freiherr).
Tassa, I disagree with your view, obviously. And I too have arguments for this move.
I mean, its not like our Great Founder has foreseen what to be done with a Caste whose Members committed High Treason throughout several Clans, etc. etc. Nuking, blabla.
Well, you get the point, I hope.
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 04:34:54 PM
Tassa, I disagree with your view, obviously. And I too have arguments for this move.
No, you don't.
QuoteI mean, its not like our Great Founder has foreseen what to be done with a Caste whose Members committed High Treason throughout several Clans, etc. etc. Nuking, blabla.
You deal with the guilty parties and move on. You don't just eliminate the caste entirely. It demonstrates that you didn't even bother to investigate who was guilty and who wasn't, which is a very dangerous and, frankly, silly path to walk.
Besides, how exactly does moving them to other castes DEAL with the problem? All it would accomplish is moving any traitors to another part of the Clan where they can do even more damage to the Clan from within.
QuoteWell, you get the point, I hope.
That you in fact have no way to justify violating the Founder's indisputable law on the caste system? Trust me, I got it. ;)
Lol, your denial of my sentence is hardly an argument on itself.
Anyway, you even go so far and tell me that the Clan did not investigate the offenders and even claim that they just sent them to another Caste.. hm.. scratching my head on that one.
Seems we cannot agree at all. I will leave it at that.
Sad enough I lack the time to RP more like the Lyrans do. :( But a one man show is not enough for even a small Clan, I fear.
And to do the new sheet .. argl.
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
Lol, your denial of my sentence is hardly an argument on itself.
That's what the rest of the post was for. ;)
QuoteAnyway, you even go so far and tell me that the Clan did not investigate the offenders and even claim that they just sent them to another Caste.. hm.. scratching my head on that one.
Well, explain to me something, Marlin. If you DID investigate the offenders, and dealt with them, what would be the purpose of eliminating the scientist caste... I mean, *other* than violating Kerensky's laws for your own roleplaying amusement? How are potential traitors any LESS likely to betray the Clan because they've been moved to another caste?
That's what I'm scratching MY head at, because it makes absolutely zero sense.
QuoteSeems we cannot agree at all. I will leave it at that
No, it's that you can't accept that the Hellions have committed a crime by eliminating a caste, and that you can't even defend why you did it, IC or OOC. So maybe it's best that you do leave it at that.
Thank you, IronMongoose for never allowing my actions to go without hilarious unintended consequences. Phil the Laborer for Archon!
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
Well, explain to me something, Marlin. If you DID investigate the offenders, and dealt with them, what would be the purpose of eliminating the scientist caste... I mean, *other* than violating Kerensky's laws for your own roleplaying amusement? How are potential traitors any LESS likely to betray the Clan because they've been moved to another caste?
That's what I'm scratching MY head at, because it makes absolutely zero sense.
To me it makes more sense than to gut the Scientists and still leave them be. In other Castes, they can be monitored far better by loyal elements, even if all guilty ones should either be dead or in positions where they cannot hurt the Clan anymore. Also, it makes a point. No one is above justice. I do not see a bit of outrage by the Spirits that Nickys genes were stolen and never found.. uh.. I guess he would have something to say about it. In any case, if whole Clans can be erased, then Castemen and even whole Castes can be too. *shrugs* The Spirits have long been beyond the point of being a moral instance or speaker of Nicky's wisdom, so I guess they continue to arm and train their lower castes and leave the Grand Council while the Hellions take care of their internal issues alone. I guess not many Clans are like they were anymore when Nicky founded them.
QuoteTo me it makes more sense than to gut the Scientists and still leave them be. In other Castes, they can be monitored far better by loyal elements, even if all guilty ones should either be dead or in positions where they cannot hurt the Clan anymore.
Then you have a skewed definition of "makes more sense", because if they aren't guilty (which I'm assuming they aren't, since they weren't punished), why are they being moved? And on the off-chance that there are still traitors in the mix, why move them around to other castes where they can spread their taint further?
You really aren't going to win this one, Marlin. Sorry.
QuoteAlso, it makes a point. No one is above justice.
How are you making the point that no one is above justice by just shuffling the scientists into other castes? Oh, and by violating Nicholas's law and abolishing an entire caste as well, and getting away with it. You're sending the message that the Hellions are very MUCH above justice, Marlin. You just don't see it that way because it serves your interests to be intentionally ignorant.
QuoteI do not see a bit of outrage by the Spirits that Nickys genes were stolen and never found.. uh.. I guess he would have something to say about it.
Oh, weak, Marlin... you can't find a single logical counterargument, so you sling mud. Get over yourself.
Besides, I *did* post that the Spirits will no longer be using genes from Strana Mechty's depositories, and outrage that the scientists conspiracy stole Nicholas' genes is assumed. Not everything needs to have a reaction posted about it, Marlin, especially the obvious stuff. But thanks for telling me how to write... not that you're in any way qualified to do so.
QuoteIn any case, if whole Clans can be erased, then Castemen and even whole Castes can be too. *shrugs*
Yeah, that makes no sense. If you're so confident, why didn't you tell the Grand Council that you eliminated your entire scientist caste? Why did you react so negatively IC when I told them? The fact that you can actually refer to MY Clan as "another Clan fallen" when you stomp on the Founder's most basic of laws is, frankly, hilarious and hypocritical... and expected behavior from the Clans these days.
And you wonder why the scientists have done the things that they've done. They do it because you
deserve it.
QuoteThe Spirits have long been beyond the point of being a moral instance or speaker of Nicky's wisdom, so I guess they continue to arm and train their lower castes and leave the Grand Council while the Hellions take care of their internal issues alone. I guess not many Clans are like they were anymore when Nicky founded them.
Two wrongs don't make a right, Marlin. Using one UNRELEATED example to argue another shows just how weak your argument is. Besides, there's no law that says I can't do it... but the Founder HIMSELF says that you can't eliminate a caste and move them wherever you want. So, you know, whatever you want to go with, bud.
And just so you're aware, Marlin? It's not the fact that you do these things that I have the issue with. I am ALL for the evolution of a faction, and yours was a logical one based on what's happening. My problem lies in the fact that you can't explain it, IC *or* OOC... and my problem lies with the fact that you are constantly looking down your nose at everyone else's "unClanlike" behavior. It's amusing because you have absolutely no moral high ground TO look down at any other Clan.
You know, Cannonshop, it's ironic that I'm actually finding myself agreeing with you now... your criticism, however ill-toned, was spot on.
I apologize for the tone of last night's post, because it WAS ill-toned, ill-tempered, and to a certain extent unfairly composed.
That said, I'm waiting for August to post Arc Royal having kittens over what Deb just announced. (If anyone has trouble reading it, let me know. She didn't rehearse the speech, so she drawled in dialect...) and I'm wondering which Clans are going to take advantage of her declared Safcon policy to make in-roads on the Lyrans, which Clans are going to resent the Star Adders for having that open conduit around the Arc Royal defenses, and which ones are going to insist the UIW needs to be absorbed Now (for their own safety, of course...)
While I might have harsh criticisms of how the Clans are behaving as a whole, and kudos to the ones I've been dealing with directly for both strategic, and 'honor' reasons, in-character my faction's got to play by Realpolitik and look out for their own interests-and being a Condom for the Terran Hegemony isn't, in their view, in their own interest.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 05:56:42 PM
And just so you're aware, Marlin? It's not the fact that you do these things that I have the issue with. I am ALL for the evolution of a faction, and yours was a logical one based on what's happening. My problem lies in the fact that you can't explain it, IC *or* OOC... and my problem lies with the fact that you are constantly looking down your nose at everyone else's "unClanlike" behavior. It's amusing because you have absolutely no moral high ground TO look down at any other Clan.
Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.
And I fail to see the other point you throw around, but I cannot help it. Got examples?
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 06:29:47 PM
Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.
So in the absence of being able to explain your own actions, you have to look for someone else to do it for you? You're sounding like our ilKhan. ;)
Let me try to explain this to you in simple terms: you eliminated an entire caste, but cannot give a justifiable OOC reason for doing it other than, say, you wanted attention. Because there are going to be two kinds of scientists: ones who are innocent (thereby making a caste move absolutely pointless anyway) and those who are guilty (and now free to sow chaos in OTHER castes). And if you've already dealt with all the guilty scientists, then what's the purpose of moving them?
You're basically violating one of Kerensky's core laws, and stomping all over how he laid out the caste system, for absolutely no reason. I don't see how you aren't getting that. If you could give an adequate IC *or* OOC explanation, I wouldn't be arguing the point with you. As it is, "it's my faction and I'll do what I want" is a weak argument and bad, bad writing. And yes, I can make that judgment call.
It'll be even more sad, and a stretching-to-the-breaking-point of credibility, if not one Clan raises an objection to what you've done. In my eyes, that's just as bad as doing it in the first place.
QuoteAnd I fail to see the other point you throw around, but I cannot help it. Got examples?
You post on the Chatterweb, and in the GC, about how this Clan or that Clan has "fallen" or is "unClanlike", and you can't even acknowledge *OOC* that you're just as guilty of it as they are, if not moreso because no one else has actually eliminated an entire caste for poorly-arguable reasons. Want examples? Go read your own posts.
Umm..guys? Last time I checked this was a game.
Last time I checked, this was a forum for discussion.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
QuoteThe Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)
The Clans wouldn't really care about that. Your Clan still committed the treason, despite who was in charge at the time of it being committed. Especially where the TH/Blood is concerned.
I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai. However, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself. The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory. At that point, though, there's no Clan with an OZ that's in compliance -- including yours. Or I suppose you could claim I've been a little slow in that I didn't start driving for Luthien or shooting Exiles at the first opportunity. Or, you know, maybe I could head toward Terra (where the enemy is) instead. But I don't see you knocking on the TH's door either.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
Oh, and then there's that small matter of the oath all Ghost Bears take to stomp the Not-Named at the first opportunity. You should be falling over yourself to slit your own throats for failing that oath for so long.
Yeah, well, I can only RP and MM myself to death so much. Just imagine I've written a hundred RP posts describing one Ghost Bear warrior eviscerating another and we'll call it good. Seriously, though, Ghost Bears really just aren't the type. We resolve internal disputes in a very sedate and thoughtful manner. We're not very clanlike that way, but it saves us a bit of blood.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
And don't even get me started on the sheer ludicrous stupidity of an act of surkairede being negotiated.
If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
QuoteThe Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.
Um, no, they weren't. The Khan just claimed "they aren't mine". Does that mean, then, that I could come in and nuke Strana Mechty, and then claim that "well, they aren't mine"? If so, let me know so I can change my order sheet for Turn 41.
There is no difference in practice between disowning ("they aren't mine") troops and Abjuring them.
Now, I don't know if that's the game effect of those actions (someone will have to confirm) but that's certainly what it should be, and how I read it.
And, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
QuoteThe Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.
Are you kidding me with this? The Clans ARE required to maintain the five castes, as the Founder himself laid down.
Not in principle. There's no reason a Clan would be required to maintain a population in a caste. Should everyone die or be Abjured, the caste could be empty, and the Clan would not be obliged to repopulate it. That said, the Clan in question is shooting itself in the foot.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
"Betrayal of Ideals" alone makes that clear when McEvedy was ordered to move everyone back to their proper caste by Nicholas.
What we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.
Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.
But if doing things according to law, tradition, and proper procedure isn't so much your style, consider that you are now unencumbered by the need to appear before the Grand Council and might as well therefore go try to pester the Goliath Scorpion Khan into dueling you. :P
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 06:32:41 PM
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 06:29:47 PM
Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.
So in the absence of being able to explain your own actions, you have to look for someone else to do it for you? You're sounding like our ilKhan. ;)
Speaking of which, since I seem to be
LawyerLoremaster to the Clans, Marlin might want to get together with me on how to justify it in his official press release. I have some ideas.
Here's my question, Marlin. Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos? Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes? Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either. Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive. In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes. Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.
Congratulations, bud. In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai.
A surkai that you put conditions on. Which speaks to your intentions better than anything you're gonna say here.
QuoteHowever, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself. The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory.
Then there's the fact that it took this long for the Bears, who allegedly swear an oath to destroy the Not-Named wherever they might be found, to get off their asses and do anything about them. Let's not forget that. I'd say ignoring an honor debt and an oath for so long is a far cry worse than having a retirement plan.
QuoteBut I don't see you knocking on the TH's door either.
Hey, I called off my war with the Blood, and gave justifiable, canonical reason to do so. So I'm not obligated. But the Clan that supposedly is sorry for not doing anything before now is the one that's under discussion here. So I'll tell you like I told Marlin: if the best you can do is to bring my faction into it, when they aren't at all comparable to the example, your argument's pretty weak from the get-go.
Quote
If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.
I don't think "buying forgiveness" can be called Clanlike by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it appears to me to be the polar opposite of it.
Besides, if the surkai was at all genuine, wouldn't you gladly accept any punishment the Clans cared to deal out, instead of telling the Clans what you
won't do for surkai?
QuoteThere is no difference in practice between disowning ("they aren't mine") troops and Abjuring them.
Now, I don't know if that's the game effect of those actions (someone will have to confirm) but that's certainly what it should be, and how I read it.
Sweet! I'd get your people off Strana Mechty, then. I'm nuking it. And Abjuring the warriors right before I do it, so you can't blame me.
QuoteAnd, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.
Unclever digs aside, nothing I did stopped that investigation, OR the call for Trial. No, that was you and the ilKhan that did that by shelving the discussion entirely and making the Scorpions answerable only to the ilKhan instead of putting the matter to a vote. I don't see how anyone would logically fail to do this once nukes come into play. Where was all of this reasonable doubt when the Mandrills did it?
Quote
Not in principle. There's no reason a Clan would be required to maintain a population in a caste. Should everyone die or be Abjured, the caste could be empty, and the Clan would not be obliged to repopulate it. That said, the Clan in question is shooting itself in the foot.
That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard from you and not even worth acknowledging.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
What we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.
Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.
But if doing things according to law, tradition, and proper procedure isn't so much your style, consider that you are now unencumbered by the need to appear before the Grand Council and might as well therefore go try to pester the Goliath Scorpion Khan into dueling you. :P
Are you dense?
First of all, if the Founder says that it's wrong, then it's law. You obviously don't seem to grasp how the Clans work. If it was just an internal Clan matter, then McEvedy wouldn't have had to move them back. Nicholas set the precedent, so to say that it's now not law is a foolish argument in retrospect.
Also, I'm getting really tired of you condescending to me about "throwing tantrums", "barking orders",and "fighting duels". It's called roleplaying my character properly, based on being a Clan warrior and based on the Clan my character is from. Maybe if people were more interested in actually portraying their characters logically and reasonably instead of powergaming and rules-lawyering, I wouldn't have to be raising objections like this in the first place. And if you can't speak to me without talking down to me, then you need to shut the hell up before you say anything to me at all.
It is all taken care of. The Clan is a bit weakened, but not in the least like you describe.
Also, those free rolls are not only Tech rolls, I think, its also commerce and stuff (much better than any new Tech, in my opinion) If you want a more detailed explanation.. hm.. either per PM or if the GC wants to look into it. Not that it is of anyone's concern than my Clan and probably the GMs. ;)
Lol, just reading. For more ease and less resources, we start breeding our trueborns with 4 fingers only. ;D Thats a saving of resources by 4 % !!!
Quote from: DXM on July 05, 2010, 07:19:06 PM
Here's my question, Marlin. Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos? Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes? Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either. Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive. In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes. Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.
Congratulations, bud. In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.
"Commerce and stuff?" And here I thought you were a Hellion, not a Shark. ;D
Quote from: Marlin on July 05, 2010, 07:29:38 PM
It is all taken care of. The Clan is a bit weakened, but not in the least like you describe.
Also, those free rolls are not only Tech rolls, I think, its also commerce and stuff (much better than any new Tech, in my opinion) If you want a more detailed explanation.. hm.. either per PM or if the GC wants to look into it. Not that it is of anyone's concern than my Clan and probably the GMs. ;)
Lol, just reading. For more ease and less resources, we start breeding our trueborns with 4 fingers only. ;D Thats a saving of resources by 4 % !!!
Quote from: DXM on July 05, 2010, 07:19:06 PM
Here's my question, Marlin. Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos? Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes? Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either. Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive. In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes. Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.
Congratulations, bud. In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.
Keep in mind though - the scientist caste also includes your teachers and your doctors, not just engineers and full-time researchers. I can see dispensing with new research, but there would be major consequences unless you pretty much allowed those subgroups to do what they were doing before under a new department label, no?
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai.
A surkai that you put conditions on. Which speaks to your intentions better than anything you're gonna say here.
Again, and as I said IC, no conditions were placed on the offer of surkai. I came to the GC and said "We were wrong and we are sorry. Please do not kill us."
That had the intended effect. I don't seem to be being killed, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
I don't think "buying forgiveness" can be called Clanlike by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm
fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.
It's true that I've also been asked to bend my industrial capacity in service of other Clans as part of the penalty for my crimes, but I don't see that as "buying forgiveness."
Let me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
QuoteHowever, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself. The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory.
Then there's the fact that it took this long for the Bears, who allegedly swear an oath to destroy the Not-Named wherever they might be found, to get off their asses and do anything about them. Let's not forget that. I'd say ignoring an honor debt and an oath for so long is a far cry worse than having a retirement plan.
Yeah, but again, we're talking about me, not about my predecessors. I took over in Turn 39 and am still getting my bearings. Offensive action is pending.
Sometimes it takes a little time to turn the
Titanic around.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
First of all, if the Founder says that it's wrong, then it's law.
And yet today, despite Nicholas Kerensky having thrown a tantrum about it in
Betrayal of Ideals, Khans are routinely elected with nary a Trial in sight. You're going to need a better argument.
Or, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
Also, I'm getting really tired of you condescending to me about "throwing tantrums", "barking orders",and "fighting duels". It's called roleplaying my character properly, based on being a Clan warrior and based on the Clan my character is from.
Yes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were
out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely. J
Others of us have other ways, based on our characters and our Clans and our opinion of how Clan Warriors ought to behave. And I think all that's great too. I even applaud NVA for playing his characters to the hilt. I doubt I'll enjoy taking his stuff quite as much as I enjoyed pounding Khan Schmitt flat, but it ought to be interesting.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.
The whole point of Surkhai is (in my opinion) it's like penance. Its not an option you go to the priest you tell him what you did and you say your hail marys and move on. In the case of Surkhai its your next highest authority. Star Captain goes to his Star Colonel, Star Colonel goes to his Galaxy Commander, Galaxy Commander goes to his Khan, Khan goes to his Clan Council. Clan goes to the Grand Council.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that its a matter of what can you do and when rather then what you will and won't do for equipment and transports that are your Surkhai. But the idea of being able to say no...no I don't want to for Surkhai is very much chalca.
QuoteAnd, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.
We should wait why? We're allowed to speak before a vote. And to help frame what the Vote is.
QuoteWhat we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.
Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.
Well in some clans the Founder's word is law in others its not. A difference here does not make you unclanlike in the eyes of all Clans it does make you a baby eating monster in the eyes of some. You need to understand that as we need to understand that other's will not agree with us when we bring your "perfidy" into the light on the point.
Also. wait what?...Since when are the Clans a reasoned parliamentarian debate culture? "Would the Right Honorable member from Widowmakers please...." Yeah no.
Clan Council's Grand or otherwise work like this. Those who have a position state it and maybe they sway people and maybe they don't. Everyone already has the facts available when they come in and maybe someone knows more and shares it. Then they vote.
Once they vote the side that lost CAN fight the decision with a Trial of Refusal. Win or lose the result is respected by all. Period.
I think the biggest problem everyone (who has a problem that is and its not just the Blood Spirits) is that you are not letting us do that when you and Diana Pryde make decisions that come out of nowhere that we don't agree with.
No trials in the HW's. It's unclanlike. We don't like clan x so...ok they can be trialed by everyone but those who are trialing them are completely safe from all their other Clan neighbors inregards to Trials. Thats unclanlike. It reak's of providing favors to allies and an attempt to establish a Imperial ilkhanate and remove the power of the Council to make policy. As the Ilkhan does NOT make policy he enforces it. GC is the LEgislature the IlKhanate is the Executive with a bunch more power.
At least...thats how it can be interpreted.
Look I know OOC you got a direction you want to go and before the GC meetings even happen you have discussed with several clans what you want to do.
Blood Spirits aren't in on those communications and Im acctually fine with that as its good RP for Blood Spirit isolation from the rest of the clans, so we want to do the debate in the Grand Council because for us its new. There is no predetermined agreement on what to do. We want our say before the Vote and if we don't like the vote we want our right to issue a Trial of Refusal.
Why do you think the last bit is weird and unclanlike I don't know. But to me thats whats different about the Clans. Anything can be challenged.
Look IN my book there are three or four factions of Clan's right now
Old School:
What makes you old school.
- Might makes right.
- Warden or Crusader you have an interpretation of the Hidden Hope Doctrine that impacts your political decisions.
- If your char dies you pick a new Char have a vote and you have a new Khan or saKhan.
Chrichell School
- Craven politician but still clan mostly.
- Khan won't fight a personal challenge to save his life....no seriously not fighting challenges saves' their life.
Adder School
- Follows Clan Law in spirit as well as word (mostly).
- Has some really off the wall idea's but still doesn't conflict with what it means to be Clan (which is a broad meaning)
- Khan will fight when appropriate.
- Always bids well but not to the point its not a real fight.
Lets call it ...how to not be Offensive. Hopelessly Contaminated by the Inner Sphere School
- Refusing all personal challenges, directed against honor, qualifications etc.
- Abuse of Loremaster position. Hurling insults back and forth rather then issuing a Challenge or giving direction based on your interpretation of Clan Law. Seriously, If the Loremaster were not forbidden to be challenged you would have gotten as many as Diana by now.
- Refusing to fight any Trials where you do not have a clear advantage.
What annoys most about this whole situation. Is you keep complaining OOC about this, when your holding things up by NOT doing your duty and having the Vote. Or if Vote is held or not in any one's purview.
The IlKhan while having a lot of power Cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. The Loremaster cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. If you'd just have the vote and bid out the Trial of Refusal this would have LONG since been over.
But you kept looking for ways to weasel out of it. So we kept looking for ways to prevent you weaseling out of it. And you keep complaining about it not being over.
Addendum:
Look the aforementioned ideologies as expressed above are at war with each other among the Clans right now, and thats just as legitimate a plot point to explore as "we got to beat the terries."
Look my main faction is the FWL. OOC No one wants the Clans to get to Terra more then me ignore Zellbrigen, kill bunch a Lyrans and then slaughter the Terran Hegemony.
But As a Blood Spirit Im playing a Home Clanner. and Clan Society is just as if not more important to me as Galaxy Commander Geoff Johns and saKhan Caden Church then punishing the Not Named because "Surely the Might of the Clans shall purge their taint from Galaxy." The fate of Clan Society however is less sure with so many Khans (from a Blood Spirit point of view) acting Chalca and the disrespect to the way of the Clans.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 08:05:14 PM
Again, and as I said IC, no conditions were placed on the offer of surkai. I came to the GC and said "We were wrong and we are sorry. Please do not kill us."
That had the intended effect. I don't seem to be being killed, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
The tone of the surkai. It wasn't the tone of a Clan seeking forgiveness. It was the Bears telling the Clans, "we want surkai, but you can't do this, this, and this, because we won't help you if you do." I understand that the Clans approach each other from positions of strength, but this strikes me as the wrong tone to take when requesting surkai. Also, it smacks of prostitution, whoring your services out against the Terrans. Shouldn't you be doing that even if the Clans choose to Abjure you (for example)?
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
I'm fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.
Really? Where's the fighting, exactly? I must have missed it.
QuoteIt's true that I've also been asked to bend my industrial capacity in service of other Clans as part of the penalty for my crimes, but I don't see that as "buying forgiveness."
Then we defer there.
QuoteLet me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.
Abjuration sounds about right to me, honestly.
Quote
Yeah, but again, we're talking about me, not about my predecessors. I took over in Turn 39 and am still getting my bearings. Offensive action is pending.
Sometimes it takes a little time to turn the Titanic around.
That's true enough, I suppose. And believe me, on that point, I can sympathize with you. My first order of business when I took the Spirits over was to distance myself from what had been done before.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
And yet today, despite Nicholas Kerensky having thrown a tantrum about it in Betrayal of Ideals, Khans are routinely elected with nary a Trial in sight. You're going to need a better argument.
Not really. I really don't see how you can argue out of Nicholas saying that the caste system exists for a reason, and how eliminating one entirely isn't a crime. We're gonna have to agree to disagree there.
QuoteOr, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.
I can't entirely disagree with this, but it's irrelevant. Canon is canon.
QuoteYes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely.
So tone down the condescension. You're one of the worst perpetuators of it, both here and on the CBT forums, and it wouldn't kill you to be a little less arrogant/rude to people that disagree with you.
QuoteOthers of us have other ways, based on our characters and our Clans and our opinion of how Clan Warriors ought to behave. And I think all that's great too. I even applaud NVA for playing his characters to the hilt. I doubt I'll enjoy taking his stuff quite as much as I enjoyed pounding Khan Schmitt flat, but it ought to be interesting.
Not that you pounded her flat. Didn't even cause lasting injuries. And besides, when Strana Mechty eats a nuke, Schmitt will have the last laugh, anyway. ;)
The Jade Falcons will loose more than their rep ilKhan if Strana Mechty were to eat a Nuke, I'll tell you that right now.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 05, 2010, 08:25:03 PM
The Jade Falcons will loose more than their rep ilKhan if Strana Mechty were to eat a Nuke, I'll tell you that right now.
Oh don't worry about it we're Clan. We settle things through Trials. However it was issued the GB Loremaster won the trial B Spirits will not come back to the GC.
And I can't think of anyway to force that to change because the Loremaster cannot be challenged. I've proposed sending Caden to the IS to kill his way through the GB Khans as with their death in single Combat Laurie Tseng will surely be elected Khan of Clan Ghost Bear.
But that would take a long time and its unlikely the Ghost Bears would honor any trial or challenges given the way things have been working lately.
I'll be going through my clan law to see if I can find anyway to force a Loremaster election (none found so far), Conditions under which a Loremaster can be challenged (none sofar), Or a Trial of Refusal being issued to a GC vote outside of the GC itself (none so far).
Quote from: august on July 05, 2010, 07:35:58 PM
Keep in mind though - the scientist caste also includes your teachers and your doctors, not just engineers and full-time researchers. I can see dispensing with new research, but there would be major consequences unless you pretty much allowed those subgroups to do what they were doing before under a new department label, no?
Actually Engineers are a highlevel in the Technician caste.
I was more then a little upset when I read that.
Folks, it might not be a bad idea if we all take a step back before we continue. I want the OOC to be an open forum that people can use, but what I'm seeing here seems to be an increasingly circular - and increasingly personal - argument that we've all seen before, both in the FGC OOC and on the CBT forums in general.
Call me crazy, but I think its safe to say that:
A) no one is going to change how they are playing their factions IC based on other peoples' OOC opinions, no matter how forcefully stated.
B) at a certain point the appropriate response is to agree to disagree.
C) IC disputes over IC issues (like, for example, whether attacking the caste system is unclanlike) should be handled in IC venues.
Which is absolutely right, and I *was* harsher than I should've been. I just feel that no one else is raising these objections, and they should be put out there.
I don't want bad blood with you, JB. I really don't. I just wanted you to understand where I'm coming from when I say these things, that's all. You can imagine how frustrating it must be to feel like you aren't being heard, you know?
But as we've already talked about, Dave, it's also great RP fodder if you look at it as such - it demonstrates that the Clans really are becoming something new and different, and we wouldn't be Blood Spirits if we just accepted that.
I hope that makes sense. :)
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong - I actually want to see all of this head-butting on the IC side. Frankly, back when I was running RD I was shocked that no one called the RD to the carpet - and called them hard - for the ways they "reimagined" the caste system and the way they openly denounced the Trial of Annihilation against the Wolverines.
My main concern is that when these disputes play out exclusively in the OOC, it doesn't really filter in the to game and instead ends up with folks getting upset and not having fun.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
The tone of the surkai. It wasn't the tone of a Clan seeking forgiveness. It was the Bears telling the Clans, "we want surkai, but you can't do this, this, and this, because we won't help you if you do." I understand that the Clans approach each other from positions of strength, but this strikes me as the wrong tone to take when requesting surkai. Also, it smacks of prostitution, whoring your services out against the Terrans. Shouldn't you be doing that even if the Clans choose to Abjure you (for example)?
I know from long experience in the FGC (from long before my Clan took a turn for its present state) that Khans are like children, especially since people generally think that's how they're supposed to act, so I was simply laying out their options for them, as I said IC.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 07:05:55 PM
I'm fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.
Really? Where's the fighting, exactly? I must have missed it.
I have to stop and explain here that turn 41 will be the first turn for which I have submitted an orders sheet on time. It didn't seem appropriate to me to order offensive actions after the deadline had come and gone, so I have not. So as to where the fighting is? Look for it in turn 41.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
QuoteLet me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.
Abjuration sounds about right to me, honestly.
Me too.
But surkai is all about asking for what you
don't deserve, and a surkairede is going to be short of Abjuration
by definition.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
QuoteOr, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.
I can't entirely disagree with this, but it's irrelevant. Canon is canon.
And, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 08:19:43 PM
QuoteYes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely.
So tone down the condescension. You're one of the worst perpetuators of it, both here and on the CBT forums, and it wouldn't kill you to be a little less arrogant/rude to people that disagree with you.
Pot, meet Kettle.
I try, I really do. It's an ongoing process, and one not entirely compatible with a classical education.
Quote from: JediBear on July 05, 2010, 09:25:29 PM
I know from long experience in the FGC (from long before my Clan took a turn for its present state) that Khans are like children, especially since people generally think that's how they're supposed to act, so I was simply laying out their options for them, as I said IC.
Well, whether or not they're acting like children is open to interpretation, since children generally don't try to work within a law to kill each other, but that's neither here nor there.
QuoteAnd, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.
It just strikes me as rather... ambiguous, and not in a good way. And I don't see how it could possibly be met with blind acceptance, either, because the caste system is a huge part of what makes Clan society what it is, and to just eliminate one, and not have a word said about it? Doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?
QuotePot, meet Kettle.
I try, I really do. It's an ongoing process, and one not entirely compatible with a classical education.
Well, I'm trying here. Meet me halfway. :P
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 09:30:14 PM
Well, I'm trying here. Meet me halfway. :P
I say Jedi stops a half-step short of halway...just to have the moral highground to say he didn't acced to the demands of a Blood Spirit ;) j/k
Yeah, that was helpful. :-\
I was being sarcastic Tassa, it was only a joke.
I had no idea. :P
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that its a matter of what can you do and when rather then what you will and won't do for equipment and transports that are your Surkhai. But the idea of being able to say no...no I don't want to for Surkhai is very much chalca.
The only time I said no, it was to a party to whom I have no responsibility. The Hell's Horses are free to hate me as much as they like, and I'll hate them right back in equal measure. Ghost Bear.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
QuoteAnd, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.
We should wait why? We're allowed to speak before a vote. And to help frame what the Vote is.
Yes, you absolutely are. So when we're debating a matter before putting it to a vote, you should feel free to chime in, if I ever let you back in, that is.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
Also. wait what?...Since when are the Clans a reasoned parliamentarian debate culture? "Would the Right Honorable member from Widowmakers please...." Yeah no.
Actually, yes. That's why they have so many darned Councils. I suppose you never wondered about that...
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
Clan Council's Grand or otherwise work like this. Those who have a position state it and maybe they sway people and maybe they don't. Everyone already has the facts available when they come in and maybe someone knows more and shares it. Then they vote.
That's also how Parliaments work.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
Once they vote the side that lost CAN fight the decision with a Trial of Refusal. Win or lose the result is respected by all. Period.
Trials of Refusal, however, are actually fairly rare. Victories even more so.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
I think the biggest problem everyone (who has a problem that is and its not just the Blood Spirits) is that you are not letting us do that when you and Diana Pryde make decisions that come out of nowhere that we don't agree with.
An ilKhan and a Grand Loremaster are a powerful combination, just given their enumerated powers. I can understand how trying to make headway against that kind of combination can be frustrating.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
No trials in the HW's. It's unclanlike.
And yet, canonically it's been done before. The Clans are at war, what are your troops doing piddling around in the HWs anyway?
That's unclanlike.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
Blood Spirits aren't in on those communications and Im acctually fine with that as its good RP for Blood Spirit isolation from the rest of the clans, so we want to do the debate in the Grand Council because for us its new. There is no predetermined agreement on what to do.
Not that I would mind entering into such discussions, or even having actual votes from time to time. But that's a matter of procedure.
And in your case, you have three options as to procedure:
1) Make nice with the GL so she'll let you back into the Hall of the Khans and then proceed as normal (propose motions, get seconds, vote)
2) Note your concerns to people who are allowed in the Hall of the Khans. Send your votes in via courier. I might even permit your Loremaster to attend.
3) Get the GC or ilKhan to
compel the GL to let you back in. Of course, you still don't want to be on her bad side.
But for Ghu's sake, show the proper respect. I know Blood Spirits think they're the One True Clan, but they could stand to be mindful of their real place in Clan politics (it rhymes with "small dish")
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
We want our say before the Vote and if we don't like the vote we want our right to issue a Trial of Refusal.
Why do you think the last bit is weird and unclanlike I don't know. But to me thats whats different about the Clans. Anything can be challenged.
Oh, I don't. All of that's fine. The GL's irritation stems from the constant questioning of her rulings and the constant disruptions of GC business to try to goad one or more of its members (usually the ilKhan) into a fight. That's how she sees it. I can understand why that might confuse you.
I should state here, as I did over on classicbattletech, that the Trial of Grievance is not a normal way of trying to influence policy. In the GC, they should actually be quite rare. As far as I can recall, I haven't seen
one in canon.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
Look IN my book there are three or four factions of Clan's right now
I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. For example, I think you'd have trouble assigning me to a category.
Plus your concept of Old School is actually more than a bit off.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
- Abuse of Loremaster position. Hurling insults back and forth rather then issuing a Challenge or giving direction based on your interpretation of Clan Law. Seriously, If the Loremaster were not forbidden to be challenged you would have gotten as many as Diana by now.
Challenging the GL is forbidden? I did not know this. Where is that information to be found?
When LT speaks, it is usually to
offer direction, I'm not just flapping my fingers for my health.
I have actually invited Khans who disagree with me to challenge me or to appeal to the Grand Council for resolution. So far, none have taken me up on it.
I have issued and fought a Trial of Grievance myself. Frankly, I think I'm doing pretty okay in the Grand Loremaster job, but that's for the GC to decide.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
What annoys most about this whole situation. Is you keep complaining OOC about this, when your holding things up by NOT doing your duty and having the Vote. Or if Vote is held or not in any one's purview.
I don't know that I've been derelict in that specific duty.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
The IlKhan while having a lot of power Cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item.
Actually, setting the Grand Council's agenda
is among the ilKhan's powers. That means that she gets to decide if a matter can even be debated, can table discussions until a later date, etc. She can even order the Grand Council to discuss an issue which does not interest them. See the WoK entry on the ilKhan.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:19:21 PM
The Loremaster cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. If you'd just have the vote and bid out the Trial of Refusal this would have LONG since been over.
Wait, which vote? Did someone bring an
actual motion before the Grand Council that was
then seconded and
properly debated?
Because I can't recall having seen that. I'll look over the GC threads for the last few turns to see if I missed anything.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
Oh don't worry about it we're Clan. We settle things through Trials. However it was issued the GB Loremaster won the trial B Spirits will not come back to the GC.
Until the GL is satisfied that your level of maturity has improved. Remember that in a proper Clan view, losing a Trial of Grievance makes you
wrong. What the Blood Spirits should be working to figure out now is
how they were wrong and
what they can do to be right again. The person to talk to about that is Laurie Tseng. (not, actually, even me. Actually Laurie Tseng. In character.)
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
And I can't think of anyway to force that to change because the Loremaster cannot be challenged. I've proposed sending Caden to the IS to kill his way through the GB Khans as with their death in single Combat Laurie Tseng will surely be elected Khan of Clan Ghost Bear.
Ha! Laurie Tseng is an old has-been. She'll be elected Khan about when she's the only Ghost Bear left. Good luck winning that many Trials. Also, you are welcome to try.
However, if you really want to remove the GL, there are ways that can be done. A simple majority of the GC can do it for any reason or no reason at all.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
But that would take a long time and its unlikely the Ghost Bears would honor any trial or challenges given the way things have been working lately.
When was the last time I failed to honor a challenge?
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 05, 2010, 08:33:44 PM
I'll be going through my clan law to see if I can find anyway to force a Loremaster election (none found so far), Conditions under which a Loremaster can be challenged (none sofar), Or a Trial of Refusal being issued to a GC vote outside of the GC itself (none so far).
You might want to talk to me-as-Laurie about that. I have answers for the first, the last, and I really need to hear about the second.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 09:30:14 PM
QuoteAnd, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.
It just strikes me as rather... ambiguous, and not in a good way. And I don't see how it could possibly be met with blind acceptance, either, because the caste system is a huge part of what makes Clan society what it is, and to just eliminate one, and not have a word said about it? Doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?
Well, yes. Of course it strikes me as odd and a terrible idea, and I'm all for a motion to compel the Ice Hellions to re-institute the caste system. I'm just saying that technically, it probably doesn't count as corruption or treason and it may not even be slightly illegal, depending on how you look at it.
On the other hand, I really like my voluntary caste system and don't want people messing with it.
Oh, believe me, we've realized that trying to make headway in the Grand Council is a massive waste of time, and we realize also that we'll never get the slightest shred of respect, but ridicule and scorn, for standing up for our convictions. That suits us, really, because it means that we no longer have to feel responsible for being a part of the stupidity and powermongering and cowardice and other assorted unClanlike BS that's infesting the Grand Council.
I wanted a reason to pull out of the incredibly stupid war with the Not-Named, and both canon AND some great roleplaying gave me that reason. And now I have a reason to no longer deal with the Grand Council on any level - because I'm not only disinclined to deal with traitors and cowards and blackmailers and politicians, but I'm no longer allowed to do so as part of that Council.
Believe me, it suits my purposes, because I can concentrate fully on my Clan and not about trying to talk sense into the ears of those who only hear what they want to hear. It'll make wonderful RP fodder, and an even greater excuse to do something crazy down the road - like get in bed with the conspiracy (after all, maybe they're right), or even open up a dialogue with the Blood and sell everyone out. And for that, I'm grateful. :)
Just pipping in, the original reason that the Wolverines according to "Betray of Ideas" got in trouble and probably got set up to be the Snowball Clan was because they relaxed their caste system. Nicholas Kerensky liked his caste system pretty much the way it was with little or no raising or lowering in it.
Now back to writing.
I am slowly trying to catch up. I am doing PM's first, so I will note if the information you receive is to be predated by the stuff I will post later in the forums.
Ok, I think I've covered most of what needed to be covered in regards to PMs and IC details, though I have the feeling that I missed something
So if those who have anything outstanding yet with the Adders would let me, Dis and IM know, it'd be appreciated
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 05, 2010, 07:03:27 PM
Last time I checked, this was a forum for discussion.
I do realize that Tassa The above quote was intended to lighten things up just a little but on the other hand I have a twisted sense of humor.
Well, as long as you aren't amused by puppy-strangling or anything, then you're cool, I guess. :D
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 06, 2010, 02:46:00 PM
Well, as long as you aren't amused by puppy-strangling or anything, then you're cool, I guess. :D
LOL!
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 06, 2010, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 06, 2010, 02:46:00 PM
Well, as long as you aren't amused by puppy-strangling or anything, then you're cool, I guess. :D
LOL!
Everyone's got to draw the line somewhere, I s'pose.
May I know where the signup thread is? Can nay find it.. :P
Lol Grae we've been doing this too long....
You've got me pegged with my GC votes ;)
Quote from: DisGruntled on July 09, 2010, 03:23:11 AM
Lol Grae we've been doing this too long....
You've got me pegged with my GC votes ;)
LOL
I just guessed that Tobias would say "If the want to be their own nation, then I welcome them, but I am not going to let them off from being challenged and proving themselves."
What a coup by the FWL, to land the GDL, from the looks of it. Makes me miss the Atrean Sun days. That would have been in the news even before the RP went up. The GDL would have read about their contract change before they could be briefed on it. And I'd make some disparaging remarks about the Terrans, too.
Thouse were the days.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 10, 2010, 07:14:49 AM
What a coup by the FWL, to land the GDL, from the looks of it. Makes me miss the Atrean Sun days. That would have been in the news even before the RP went up. The GDL would have read about their contract change before they could be briefed on it. And I'd make some disparaging remarks about the Terrans, too.
Thouse were the days.
I'd imagine that article would have been 90% disparaging remarks about the Terrans and 10% "Oh look, GDL!" ;D
Which when you think about it is completely inappropriate.
After all disparaging comments about the Terrans is what the Star League High Council is for.
Quote from: DXM on July 10, 2010, 10:26:44 AM
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 10, 2010, 07:14:49 AM
What a coup by the FWL, to land the GDL, from the looks of it. Makes me miss the Atrean Sun days. That would have been in the news even before the RP went up. The GDL would have read about their contract change before they could be briefed on it. And I'd make some disparaging remarks about the Terrans, too.
Thouse were the days.
I'd imagine that article would have been 90% disparaging remarks about the Terrans and 10% "Oh look, GDL!" ;D
I hereby declare the new FWL sheet done...prey nations should flee with great speed! ;D
What are you talking about? Disparaging the Terrans is always appropreate.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 11, 2010, 06:15:52 AM
What are you talking about? Disparaging the Terrans is always appropreate.
Should have stayed FWL IM.. ;)
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 11, 2010, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 11, 2010, 06:15:52 AM
What are you talking about? Disparaging the Terrans is always appropreate.
Should have stayed FWL IM.. ;)
QFT.
In as much as the FWL will always be in my heart, I think I made the right call. There's no qustion that I couldn't have run them with the time I have now, or at least not done that and what I'm doing in the Clans. Working with the Adder team has been the most enjoyable thing in this game since the old Mandrill crew broke up, so I'm glad that I've gotten to do new things in this game.
Plus, in as much as the sense of contenunity you get from stable leadership is nice, the FWL is not a stable leadership sort of state, and I think the very incherictor flip floping that we've seen, with civil unrest, the return to power of Thomas Marik, the reassendancy of parlament, all these things make the FWL a lot more fun and dynamic, and are good for the game. A lot better I think than if Albi and Helm had not come back and ousted me as a ruthless autocrat as I had been for the prior year or two.
Though if you need a part timer to edit the paper, I could potentaly help out there. Or some other player might.
I was in the Mandrill crew. At least if you mean that. That before I was not in. :(
And yes, once the sign up thread comes and I have my goddamn orders sheet in order (Unimaginable how unfun this is and considering the time left.. :-X I have doubts I can get my orders in in time) I would love to have you as help to kick off the newspaper again.
Read the second line.
Thats what the Star League High Council is for. You insulted the Terran's in the news. I do it on their capital, and then demand they make political concessions to appease me. :-)
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 11, 2010, 06:15:52 AM
What are you talking about? Disparaging the Terrans is always appropreate.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 11, 2010, 06:21:45 PM
In as much as the FWL will always be in my heart, I think I made the right call. There's no qustion that I couldn't have run them with the time I have now, or at least not done that and what I'm doing in the Clans. Working with the Adder team has been the most enjoyable thing in this game since the old Mandrill crew broke up, so I'm glad that I've gotten to do new things in this game.
Plus, in as much as the sense of contenunity you get from stable leadership is nice, the FWL is not a stable leadership sort of state, and I think the very incherictor flip floping that we've seen, with civil unrest, the return to power of Thomas Marik, the reassendancy of parlament, all these things make the FWL a lot more fun and dynamic, and are good for the game. A lot better I think than if Albi and Helm had not come back and ousted me as a ruthless autocrat as I had been for the prior year or two.
Though if you need a part timer to edit the paper, I could potentaly help out there. Or some other player might.
I would welcome the help. :-) Thank you.
Quote from: Marlin on July 11, 2010, 06:52:28 PM
I was in the Mandrill crew. At least if you mean that. That before I was not in. :(
You were in the crew, and you kept things going and did some good RP... untill you went back to the Hellions. I don't blame you, mind you, or anyone of the others. How can I, when I eventualy left myself? But I think we can all agree that the more the merrier, weather its a group of Mandrills, or Adders, or FWLers (and yes Marlin, you were there at our second peak in numbers and in RP production, too) or Marians (always a faction that's had a good crew) or Bears (I remember the '67 Bears and their 14 players, all producing good RP) or Jags (the '48 Jags had over a dozen, and again some very exciting RP) or even Mongeese (we had a good little team for a while, peaking at 4, though we spent as much time debating bagel topings as mech tactics). RPing alone is all well and good... but its not the same, I think.
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=492.msg7666#msg7666
+1 for Democracy, Taiwan style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfaNHtKkffA).
A new nation, a new "Republic" of sorts...
After I finish the nightmare of the record-sheet, I may even detail out what's in the Instrument of Government for the Union of Independent Worlds.
Notably, there's a clause in said instrument describing the proper procedure for duelling, and it includes subsections for Duels fought voluntarily vs. Duels as decreed necessary for maintaining order in the Congress.
Yeah, that means that if a couple of members get too...um...frisky in their rivalries, the Archduke/Archduchess can make them fight it out. A "Compulsory" duel requires the combatants be bound at the right (or left) wrist and leg, and there's a short list of "Tools" available to said combatants, including (at the Archduke/Archduchess' discretion) Bludgeons, claw-hammers, hatchets, or knives. (gotta edit that bit...) Deb was being nice-she offered them an option besides killing each other in public-she didn't have to.
You know, as a Clanner I think I have to completely approve.
Quote from: JediBear on July 12, 2010, 07:19:18 AM
You know, as a Clanner I think I have to completely approve.
And you all were wondering why the Adders, well, Stan anyways, like the UIW
Add Falconry to the list of approved 'tools' for a duel, and you'll have some interesting fights on your hand.
Quote from: GraeGor on July 12, 2010, 02:50:49 PM
Quote from: JediBear on July 12, 2010, 07:19:18 AM
You know, as a Clanner I think I have to completely approve.
And you all were wondering why the Adders, well, Stan anyways, like the UIW
Because they're as insane as we are?
Okay, there are players requesting information that IC is reasonable. However, posting it would give OOC intel to the otherside. In many cases, the people, of course, are on BOTH sides. So, as players, do we feel confident in not using the OOC information in any planning? Or, do we IC say we provided information and OOC never really do?
Quote from: NVA on July 12, 2010, 08:01:25 PM
Okay, there are players requesting information that IC is reasonable. However, posting it would give OOC intel to the otherside. In many cases, the people, of course, are on BOTH sides. So, as players, do we feel confident in not using the OOC information in any planning? Or, do we IC say we provided information and OOC never really do?
I prefer using PMs (with CC's to the GMs) for a lot of that. Remembering to 'save' a copy in your inbox, you can then use the same message (where appropriate) to answer your questioners...plus there's a paper-trail so you can say with some certainty that you did, indeed answer the question-just not in public.
That is a valid way of doing it. However, most of the SL Member leadership are also clan leadership.
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 12, 2010, 08:14:57 PM
Quote from: NVA on July 12, 2010, 08:01:25 PM
Okay, there are players requesting information that IC is reasonable. However, posting it would give OOC intel to the otherside. In many cases, the people, of course, are on BOTH sides. So, as players, do we feel confident in not using the OOC information in any planning? Or, do we IC say we provided information and OOC never really do?
I prefer using PMs (with CC's to the GMs) for a lot of that. Remembering to 'save' a copy in your inbox, you can then use the same message (where appropriate) to answer your questioners...plus there's a paper-trail so you can say with some certainty that you did, indeed answer the question-just not in public.
As someone who's spend the entire game on both sides of the fence, and most of the game leading factions on both sides, my feeling is that if you don't trust the players who are the faction leaders in this game, its just not the right game for you. There are some players who I didn't trust, and they got what was comming to them (or else they got something else that wasn't comming to them, but solved my problem anyway). If they hadn't, I'd have quit, I think. Or at least stopped being a faction leader so I didn't have to deal with it...
Trust, in the players, in the GMs, in our selves, has to I think be at the center of a game like this. Some players personaly know their limits (Parm's been very good about this, for example, after years being active in the MoC, SL, and the Horses, as just one of many examples) and so ask not to know. When I was in the FWL, I tried to let my faction mates handle the Clan front (when I had them). But when I didn't, I had to get the information my self, and just do my best to act on it ICly.
So, if its IC to give the information out, I think you had ought to do it. Do a mass PM, if you want to, to the SL heads. Or just post it with a big spoiler warning, so that Clan leaders with little self-controll but enough self-dicapline stay away. And either way just trust that 1) most people arn't going to cheat with it 2) the people who are will probably find a way to do it, no matter what steps you take 3) the GMs will catch these people, and they'll get what's comming to them.
Quote from: NVA on July 12, 2010, 08:01:25 PM
Okay, there are players requesting information that IC is reasonable. However, posting it would give OOC intel to the otherside. In many cases, the people, of course, are on BOTH sides. So, as players, do we feel confident in not using the OOC information in any planning? Or, do we IC say we provided information and OOC never really do?
Even when we didn't have people playing both sides of the fence, information flowed freely between "sides." The members of the SL Council (and, for that matter, the Clan Grand Council) are actually
less trustworthy than the people playing them.
If the IC information is not provided, that will and should have IC consequences and should have an IC justification. Worrying about having players on both sides is metagaming when that's an inevitable consequence of how few players and how many factions we have.
Can we possibly get the voting done in the GC, and move on to the next ten items of business? I mean there was a purpose behind the new format, right?
Okay, reading about a Hellion Khan cracking a Spheroid joke, and a long one, in front of Galaxy Commanders and others gathered for a military meeting... that was pretty disturbing, and not nearly as amusing as one would have thought. It seemed very out-of-place and odd, and frankly, I'm shocked no one shot Lienet in the face over it.
I dunno, I thought it was kinda funny...of course I'm a warped individual, so I'm probably not the best person to comment, but when has that ever stopped me ;)
It shows that the man is eccentric, and maybe hopeful that his subordinates will expose themselves to new things
As to why no one has shot him yet, as long as he gets results where it counts, they're probably willing to put up with A LOT
Regarding the GC, if the voting is done on the UIW, can we move on to the next item on the agenda
I think it also looks to the connection between the Hellions in the Inner Sphere. Some Clans have made a move to stay aloof, while others (most even) have tried to make some connection. I think that this is a way of showing that the Hellions are trying to embrace some of what the IS has to offer, even if its not catching on so quickly.
SL Factions...Can you please send me accurate lists of what is seconded to the SLDF <IE: Direct SLDF command> and what is JCA <Liason COmmand. Agreement not to operate in theatre without coordinating.>
All Fed Suns forces are JLC, but manufactured forces belong to the SLDF itself.
SOLD!!.
Okay, still have some MP up for "Lease" (Cycle pool sales, but turn-limited), I'm willing to take a bath on this- 1/10th book rate this turn, but it has GOT to be in 50 to 100 point lots. (that's you paying 5 RP for 50 MP, or 10 RP for 100 MP) I'm willing to entertain trade-in-kind (FP for MP instead of RP for MP), but remember, I have limited factory space, and the production run this turn's already spoken for.
really all I have left, is MP, but I have quite a lot for my size and needs for the foreseeable future, so this could really be a good deal...
What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)
We are not invading, we are liberating.. ;D
Quote from: Marlin on July 16, 2010, 06:45:15 PM
We are not invading, we are liberating exterminating.. ;D
Fixed...
Quote from: Marlin on July 16, 2010, 06:45:15 PM
We are not invading, we are liberating.. ;D
Do it faster. The sooner you take out the Phone Company the sooner I can trade with all markets without losing ALL markets. :-)
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 16, 2010, 06:29:59 PM
What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)
Would you believe that when I said "Death to the FWL," I meant it in the best possible way?
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 16, 2010, 06:29:59 PM
What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)
Cut me in as middle man for a portion of the take and you don't have to restrict your trade THAT much. I can and will trade with the Clans-we are, after all, NOT at war with them, or anyone else for that matter (at least, for the time being.)
And Discretion is guaranteed-I won't tell anyone (well, except the GM's) where the stuff is coming from, or going to. (NON_disclosure is standard...)
What this means for you, is that your trades are safe from prying eyes of other nations when you deal through me-and the guarantee is more than a promise to 'be good'-after all, I'm tiny, and therefore can't afford to have pissed off customers coming to kick my ass.
Lol, those underhanded deals are getting outta control! SOmetime we trade withe UIW for Wobbie gear. :D
I know, not happening, but funny thought.
Quote from: Marlin on July 16, 2010, 07:35:55 PM
Lol, those underhanded deals are getting outta control! SOmetime we trade withe UIW for Wobbie gear. :D
I know, not happening, but funny thought.
I'd be tempted, but I don't think the WoB are selling at low enough prices that I could manage it and not come out deeply in the red with an entire Terran Corps bearing down to wipe me out.
This HAS given me an interesting idea for a Roleplay/Resource generator though...
Casino Australia! Viva Los Exchange!
Here's how it would work: participants put up (2RP) worth of stake to start, with additional bets based on known events (like the 'free' research roll turn, outcome of someone else's battles, etc.) We operate as the bookie and distribution of winnings for a small cut, since the UIW is neutral, not at war with anyone and has no vested interest in outcomes, anyone can play.
Winners take the pot at the end of the turn, minus a 5 to 10 percent cut for the Exchange. In the case of multiple winners, the pot splits evenly for distribution.
Naturally, it's above-board at the exchange level, though individual bets are confidential, and really, we have no way to control what your faction may do to influence the outcome...
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 16, 2010, 07:34:08 PM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 16, 2010, 06:29:59 PM
What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)
Cut me in as middle man for a portion of the take and you don't have to restrict your trade THAT much. I can and will trade with the Clans-we are, after all, NOT at war with them, or anyone else for that matter (at least, for the time being.)
And Discretion is guaranteed-I won't tell anyone (well, except the GM's) where the stuff is coming from, or going to. (NON_disclosure is standard...)
What this means for you, is that your trades are safe from prying eyes of other nations when you deal through me-and the guarantee is more than a promise to 'be good'-after all, I'm tiny, and therefore can't afford to have pissed off customers coming to kick my ass.
Sir I believe we have just entered into a new buisness arrangement.
Ah UIW when you absolutely, positively, need plausible deniability for trading with the Clans....or the Inner Sphere as the case may be. ;)
Unrelated note: Jihad Host Spots Terra is great. Just spent the afternoon/evening reading it cover-to-cover.
Indeed it is XTRO:Davion and HTP:Misery are good too.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 16, 2010, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 16, 2010, 07:34:08 PM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 16, 2010, 06:29:59 PM
What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)
Cut me in as middle man for a portion of the take and you don't have to restrict your trade THAT much. I can and will trade with the Clans-we are, after all, NOT at war with them, or anyone else for that matter (at least, for the time being.)
And Discretion is guaranteed-I won't tell anyone (well, except the GM's) where the stuff is coming from, or going to. (NON_disclosure is standard...)
What this means for you, is that your trades are safe from prying eyes of other nations when you deal through me-and the guarantee is more than a promise to 'be good'-after all, I'm tiny, and therefore can't afford to have pissed off customers coming to kick my ass.
Sir I believe we have just entered into a new buisness arrangement.
Ah UIW when you absolutely, positively, need plausible deniability for trading with the Clans....or the Inner Sphere as the case may be. ;)
That's kind of the idea. I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price. Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)
Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)
Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely".
For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...
(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls. Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)
Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point. The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer) Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...
Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles. in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts. The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR.
Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.
Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game. Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks. If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...
So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion.
Alright. GMs, I'm calling you out. I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that." The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours. I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet. I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question. If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.
1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?
Nuclear weapons are stated in the rules: you start with one per PF, one per National Captial, and 1 per 10 Clan HW Zones(of which you have none), so you are to figure your own stockpile out. It is in the turn 40 Rules Update thread, along with full rules for their usage and storage.
SO Teams: Unless a Lyran SO team defects to you, I wouldn't expect to have one to begin with. These are elite teams that require long time periods of training, but I'd plan on having none, or 1 if you are lucky.
Intel Ratings: Expect to be in the 0-1-2 range, as you no doubt have acquired some skill in dealing with the Lyrans, but without a formal agency or training, are going off instinct and the low-level Lyran defectors you've acquired. However, these numbers are in no way required to proceed with your Orders, as you don't know what the rolls for Intel Missions are anyways.
You need to remember dude, that Dave + Josh have been horrendously busy. Theres alot going on right now, and they've been under pressure to get all the stuff done for the order sheet change, and the normal RP workload they're is under, and also Dave's computer was down for 2 days, and they had to do everything to get Turn 5 finished, and Turn 6 setup for Flashpoint. And who knows if they've had unrelated RL stuff come down on them(as always happens when your other stuff requires alot of attention).
I understand the annoyance at not being responded to, but you have 48 hours like you said, and your stuff is non-critial, meaning that your orders and faction are perfectly operable without that information. They'll get to it, no worries.
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 17, 2010, 08:52:08 AM
That's kind of the idea. I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price. Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)
Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)
Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely".
For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...
(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls. Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)
Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point. The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer) Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...
Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles. in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts. The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR.
Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.
Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game. Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks. If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...
So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion.
Just to put my 2 cents in: I think this is both a bad idea from an IC and OOC perspective.
IC: Would the UIW truly condone, and indeed publiclly support, such an operation? Putting themselves into a situation where there is even the smallest possibility for liability is a huge risk on their part. The SLDF and GC would descend on that body in a heartbeat, for the exact reasons you described: it allows factions to circumvent trade restrictions, and treaty-restricted sales. The GC would take it down just to prevent the off chance that Clantech would be moved on the black market through that system(which I will garuntee would be a huge source of revenue for the exchange). The SLDF would likewise stop it to prevent dissident factions from gaining access to Clantech that could destabalize its member states.
OOC: I don't think its something that will add value to the game, but could create a large headache for some. As the current head of the ICW, I can promise you that it would be one of their top priorities to shut that operation down the moment they became aware of it, to prevent the exact types of illegal transactions you expoused at it enabling. The Jade Falcons would be outraged the first time they found out that another Clan's investment was used to assist a foreign power they were not in a helping mood to, or else would simply come knocking and crush it. I just see it adding problems, and it doesn't fill any empty spot in the rules: if factions wish to trade, they can already do that, and nobody would know about it unless they were told.
I also don't know that if enacted, it should be above the intelligence rules. As it is, most missions dont have a success threshold, but a series of different outcomes depending on the result: a 12 would essentially mean that an intelligence agent had penetrated far enough to gain access to the true logs, and had figured out whatever it was he was after. There shouldn't be a way to make your dealings totally infallible to detection, its just unfair.
The GC has not been very aggressive about restricting access to Clantech. It's already available on the Black Market, and a number of IS and other non-GC factions already produce and sell it.
I've even considered selling certain pieces openly to the FWL.
Not worried about the Black Market, never going to get them all.
However, unless a GC clan has left to become an IS nation, outside of the Dominion and the Hegemony, nobody can produce Clantech. Its stated clearly in the rules: if you capture a Factory or Shipyard from the Clans, you can produce Clantech from it for a single turn. After that, it can't be used to create Clantech anymore. And as it specificilly says GC Clans, the only faction that currently is able to produce Clan technology that I'm aware of, that isn't allied with the GC is the Exiles/Clan Wolf: however, as they are most assuredly going to be cut off from the homeworlds at some point, and are no longer a GC Clan, I would question their ability to produce Clan technology.
And as I'm not aware of every deal going on, I cannot stop current trading deals, but Diana will be activly trying to prevent further leakages of Clan technology.
Dragoons and Exiles were the primary deliverers of Clan goodness. Both will likely continue. >:(
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 17, 2010, 10:30:08 AM
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 17, 2010, 08:52:08 AM
That's kind of the idea. I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price. Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)
Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)
Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely".
For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...
(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls. Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)
Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point. The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer) Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...
Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles. in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts. The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR.
Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.
Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game. Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks. If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...
So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion.
Just to put my 2 cents in: I think this is both a bad idea from an IC and OOC perspective.
IC: Would the UIW truly condone, and indeed publiclly support, such an operation? Putting themselves into a situation where there is even the smallest possibility for liability is a huge risk on their part. The SLDF and GC would descend on that body in a heartbeat, for the exact reasons you described: it allows factions to circumvent trade restrictions, and treaty-restricted sales. The GC would take it down just to prevent the off chance that Clantech would be moved on the black market through that system(which I will garuntee would be a huge source of revenue for the exchange). The SLDF would likewise stop it to prevent dissident factions from gaining access to Clantech that could destabalize its member states.
OOC: I don't think its something that will add value to the game, but could create a large headache for some. As the current head of the ICW, I can promise you that it would be one of their top priorities to shut that operation down the moment they became aware of it, to prevent the exact types of illegal transactions you expoused at it enabling. The Jade Falcons would be outraged the first time they found out that another Clan's investment was used to assist a foreign power they were not in a helping mood to, or else would simply come knocking and crush it. I just see it adding problems, and it doesn't fill any empty spot in the rules: if factions wish to trade, they can already do that, and nobody would know about it unless they were told.
I also don't know that if enacted, it should be above the intelligence rules. As it is, most missions dont have a success threshold, but a series of different outcomes depending on the result: a 12 would essentially mean that an intelligence agent had penetrated far enough to gain access to the true logs, and had figured out whatever it was he was after. There shouldn't be a way to make your dealings totally infallible to detection, its just unfair.
It's not above it, DXM: Intel roll success-they got the stuff on the Exchange. NOW you need to go find out where the Exchange got it, because the buyer doesn't know, so your spy doesn't know. (Spies don't know what the target or mark doesn't know... compartmentalization works both ways.)
Hell, for htat matter, the parties to the transaction would need to make Intel rolls to find out who they're doing business with. In the RP Loan scenario, for instance, the Falcons only know that they answered a loan request from BBT, which could be
anyone, and the Taurians don't know they're paying money to a Clanner, because all they know is that CGC is the stock-ticker who floated the loan.
As for ICW rushing to shut it down...well, that's also a cost of doing business. The risk of "Illegal" activity is pretty much contained by the entry rules of the exchange, and it's between sovereign entities-nobody's signed over their sovereignty yet, but a competing exchange where all they players are known to each other (and everyone else) isn't going to be nearly as profitable either for the members of that exchange, or the operator (Proportionally), because it's more efficient to just make direct deals behind-the-scenes (requiring investigations to dig out and no lead up clues unless it's announced by the parties to the transaction!) than to use a Broker.
It's like swiss banking, DXM-the attractiveness is in the security provided by anonymity, and the broker's need to be honest in order to not be annihilated.
ON the game balance side, it's balanced because in order to work IC, it's a pain in the ass for the dumbass (in this case, me) who runs it-you think the current Record sheet is complicated? to be worth the effort in terms of yeild, an exchange like this requires at minimum weekly updating, with a separate set of records for the GM staff to peruse on an 'at will' basis (Since, y'know, they're the folks who roll the dice that decides what you find out, how, and how much...) this isn't an easy flog to abuse the rules, and it doesn't require additional rules, it's simply formalizing a sort of arrangement that any three players could come to on their own, and giving it a physical location that CAN be targeted for intel ops.
It's also balanced because of where it is-inherently the kind of retribution you're suggesting is a much bigger danger for a little knothead state like mine, than, say, the Free Worlds League (whom, while they may well decide to take advantage of such an exchange existing in order to conduct their business in a measure of privacy while boosting profit, are unlikely to set one up themselves due to an automatic limitation on who CAN do business with them in such a fashion...ie only Inner Sphere states and a few Periph states that havent' had a war with 'em recently.)
All of that assumes it even works. For it to work, you need to have enough player factions interested in trade to make it work-notably, the one thing so far that makes me truly reluctant to do this, is that in spite of banging on pans to get attention, I got a sum total of TWO 'bites', neither one for the bit that seemed to be the really serious problem. What makes me interested, is that a certain player who's had to leave forces where they are because of MP debt, probably has RP to burn, but can't make an open IC deal because of another player's IC politics would burn the deal at the GM level. An anonymous exchange where it's "Set your price + x%" would handle that really, really well...
AS for ethical (because there's nothing "illegal" here) considerations...we're Playing
politicians.
In politics, underhandedness is what you accuse your opponent of (along with corruption). As Nixon famously is attributed to saying "It's not illegal when the President does it..."
Like I said in an earlier post on this topic, the GM staff isn't already doing this, so it MUST be a pain in the ass.
Your people should really think about it, CS, as most Clans wont like it.. I guess. :)
Anyway, except the Naval part, my orders are slowly getting done.. ITs always trouble. :(
Go for it, Cannonshop. I can't imagine a Khan that tells knock-knock jokes to his officers while on duty would have much moral high ground over anything you're wanting to do. ;)
Quote from: DXM on July 17, 2010, 09:00:47 AM
Alright. GMs, I'm calling you out. I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that." The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours. I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet. I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question. If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.
1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?
Don't feel bad, I'm still waiting for a few answers as well, both for the Adders and for Charlie's 'Adder Commonwealth'
And if anyone would be willing to send me at least one sample of an Independent AeroSpace Regiment detailed out by Squadron, including a variety of ASF Carrier DropShips it would be appreciated
Finally, what are the usual "components" for an Inner Sphere
Naval Expeditionary Fleet, a sample of one of those would be equally appreciated, especially if its somewhat detailed: JumpShips, DropShips, Support Units, etc
Now, I won't speak to IC here (I'll do that IC, if I have any, though I was honestly thinking about contracting for some sales untill I found a Clan buyer). If you can find people who think its IC, then do what you've got to do.
But OOC, we need to be sure that anything like this can exist with in the scope of the rules, rather than needing new rules to cover it, or that if new rules are created they are universal, and can cover commerce for other factions and groups across the game (Niops' map chart exchange, for example, which I always found problematic for other reasons). I don't know that any rules prohibit this, or alow it, since its not something that's really been looking at closely, which I think we should perhaps do, if this is something you're serious about.
Quote from: DXM on July 17, 2010, 09:00:47 AM
Alright. GMs, I'm calling you out. I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that." The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours. I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet. I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question. If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.
1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?
As Graegor pointed out, unfortunately, you're not the only one. I have about 60 back PMs right now that have accumulated since I got my new PC. You - and everyone else who sent me one - will be getting a response in the next few hours.
You're right that this
is our fault for not getting back sooner, but at the same time please bear in mind that I'm on vacation and I'm rationing the amount of time I am spending on FGC work. That's not to say that you won't get an answer, just a request to bear with us a little bit because we aren't "on the job full time" at the moment.
Having said that, I want to thank everyone for their patience. We're almost caught up on everything and we're working to square away what's left.
Here's a good question: what email address do I send my orders to, anyway?
Quote from: DXM on July 17, 2010, 06:27:26 PM
Here's a good question: what email address do I send my orders to, anyway?
fgc_orders@intelser.org
Sweet, thanks.
+1 to Dave for letting me dust off the Spirit Crusher. (Iron Mongoose, you of ALL people better get THAT reference, or we can no longer be friends.)
Quote from: GraeGor on July 17, 2010, 04:08:11 PM
Quote from: DXM on July 17, 2010, 09:00:47 AM
Alright. GMs, I'm calling you out. I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that." The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours. I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet. I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question. If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.
1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?
Don't feel bad, I'm still waiting for a few answers as well, both for the Adders and for Charlie's 'Adder Commonwealth'
And if anyone would be willing to send me at least one sample of an Independent AeroSpace Regiment detailed out by Squadron, including a variety of ASF Carrier DropShips it would be appreciated
Finally, what are the usual "components" for an Inner Sphere Naval Expeditionary Fleet, a sample of one of those would be equally appreciated, especially if its somewhat detailed: JumpShips, DropShips, Support Units, etc
Have you done your random allocation tables yet? (that's step one, the tab "equipment tables, template")
Once you've done those, you go to your Naval sheet.
Now, here's the pain in the ass part. you've got a specific FP value, right?
Okay, to make it not throw errors at you, y'all gonna need to assign transport jumpships to them.
Seriously, you need to do this.
Follow the tutorial after that-carriers fall into one of two types depending on where you assigned 'em in the RAT, they're either going to be patrol, or assault, ships. (I grouped all of mine in "patrol" ships-assault droppers may also occasionally carry fighters, but your carriers are types like the Leopard CV, Carrier, Vengeance and Titan.)
Next, open the 'Verification' tab, it will show you how many droppers your jumpers can carry.
Then open the 'support' tab, and start by assigning dropships to your jumpers-you're most likely going to be leaning heavy on Patrol and Assault types to fill it out.
Transports fill .25 FP, Patrols are .5, assaults are 1
Last, you assign your fighters-by squadron. Light squadron is .25 FP, Medium is .5 FP, Heavy is more (iirc Heavies run 1 FP)
If you run out of ship before you run out of FP, you add another Jumpship.
Experience rating acts as a multiplier, so you can cut down the numbers up to the stated experience of the independent wing in question by playing with the experience block.
The "Independent Wing" is therefore built around what you're hauling it with, followed by the composition of your assigned carrier dropships (you need more if you've got a lot of something small, like Leopard CV's, or Quetzcoatl jump-CV's, less if you've got a lot of Vengeance or Titan on your tables) followed by how many Assault class droppers you're hauling alongside.
My table leaned heavily to the lighter/lower capacity side, so I had to have more ships for the FP value, someone with bigger jumpships and higher-value BV in their dropship table won't have nearly the problem.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 18, 2010, 04:00:22 AM
+1 to Dave for letting me dust off the Spirit Crusher. (Iron Mongoose, you of ALL people better get THAT reference, or we can no longer be friends.)
Of course I do. There's a mech that takes me back. What a monster, though.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 18, 2010, 05:40:21 AM
Of course I do. There's a mech that takes me back. What a monster, though.
Well, Dave says she is grandfathered in, and with your permission, I'd love to write up some RP for reintroducing her. Check your PMs in a minute. :)
Good. Perhaps I'll have to take Luna up against it again (though Luna's cursed, I think) or my new Adder Stormcrow.
Did you win?
Me and Aleksandr were just talking about Luna, actually. We miss her. :)
Are we talking about the same Luna? The Turkina, right, with the LPLs and LRMs? Though, in as much as I don't expect to see it, the Vipers have the origonal mech some place. I think one of the Khans was riding it for a time. Kenshin had to use a replacment Turk for his Luna, and Amy's pretty much retired that one (she's a T-Wolf gal).
We still need a new signup thread.. or dig the old one out. I cant find it.
Quote from: Marlin on July 19, 2010, 06:42:05 PM
We still need a new signup thread.. or dig the old one out. I cant find it.
To avoid any further confusion, the I will be clarifying the name of the signup area in a moment to make it clear where such posts should be made.
Do we have any Web Program type developers? I have always wanted to see much of this type of order sheets, etc, automated. I can do database design and program design, but not coding front end, etc. Then, we can add things like random encounters when 2 units pass through the same hex, etc. And, no mass of spreadsheets for the GMs.
Quote from: NVA on July 20, 2010, 04:38:48 PM
Do we have any Web Program type developers? I have always wanted to see much of this type of order sheets, etc, automated. I can do database design and program design, but not coding front end, etc. Then, we can add things like random encounters when 2 units pass through the same hex, etc. And, no mass of spreadsheets for the GMs.
Mass-merging the orders sheets for cool stuff like this has always been one of the "big dreams" of the FGC GM staffs... however I personally lack the programming skills to realize it. If we can put together the proper mix of skills to do this, I would fully support it.
I just want to be clear on something.
....
I have EVEN MORE invasion and RP threads to post but I need to crash.
All threads should expect additional RP fleshing out over the next few days.
Have fun everybody and remember... Ask not what the Captain-General can do for you ask why is his name a killing phrase!
Just curious...Why are folks creating special roll threads instead of just rolling in the thread associated with the roll?
I like to do it so that I don't need to start every thread off with 2 posts. Does it matter?
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 21, 2010, 06:43:01 AM
I like to do it so that I don't need to start every thread off with 2 posts. Does it matter?
Just makes it easier to track rolls for other people. But, probably not. Just strange to me.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 21, 2010, 04:26:14 AM
Have fun everybody and remember... Ask not what the Captain-General can do for you ask why is his name a killing phrase!
Because MARIK SMACH?
Aren't civil wars fun?
Quote from: JediBear on July 21, 2010, 03:20:03 PM
Aren't civil wars fun?
Yepperz ::)...especially when multiple units from multiple factions are all on the same planet wanting the same planet
I just chuckle at the FWL in this. "Oh, there's a civil war on? Well, we've got to be a part of that action!"
Well, one thing's sure. They've got the edge on the Lyrans in experience.
:P
A star <10 fighters> for .5 FP <7500 BV>. Itty Bitty Fighters.
Quote from: NVA on July 21, 2010, 06:15:40 PM
A star <10 fighters> for .5 FP <7500 BV>. Itty Bitty Fighters.
Likely itty, bitty, FAST fighters.
Just a quick question to the others providing relief to Tharkad - did you guys spend RP on the aid? I threw half my income into it, and would like to represent that in my IC posts if the others didn't. I need all the PR help I can get.
Quote from: NVA on July 21, 2010, 06:15:40 PM
A star <10 fighters> for .5 FP <7500 BV>. Itty Bitty Fighters.
Well, there's what I get from going by memory...
Its good I guess that I said .5ish, since I think it would be closer to 12k BV for a star of Chaeroneas, which that fleet does include several of.
Quote from: august on July 21, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Just a quick question to the others providing relief to Tharkad - did you guys spend RP on the aid? I threw half my income into it, and would like to represent that in my IC posts if the others didn't. I need all the PR help I can get.
Was that before or after the partial communications blockage penalty? ;)
Being attacked by spheroids and greedy Rimmers I can understand. (and I think it's funny that almost everyone else appears to have gotten more troops in the AC then the AC originally did ;) ) Being attacked by one of our former allies (whose OZ we originally carved out) out of the blue with no notice a bit less so especially if they end up invading. Any chance for an OOC or IC explanation on the reasoning on it Holt?
I just finished a 10+ hour day moving a new colleague into his new home in the lovely 90-100 degree weather and near 100% humidity of south GA. As such I'm gong to hold off posting up any Adder stuff till tomorrow after I've recovered a bit.
Quote from: NVA on July 21, 2010, 07:51:19 PM
ilKhan's ban and trials and we would not want to have you be cowardly hypocrits by now ignoring the ilKhan. Further, we have already accepted a trial for this world from Clan Blood Spirit.
Can I ask how you justify refusing a ToP from one Clan, but accept it without comment from another? The ilKhan said no ToPs, meaning anyone doing it is undertaking an illegal trial; and also, the Hellions didn't support it, because it was an edict posted by the ilKhan, so your argument for refusing their ToP should prolly be changed.
Easy. The Wolves don't support it. They don't believe the ilKhan has such authority. We have refused those clans that have HIDDEN behind it. The CBS did not cower behind the ilKhan's skirt. They honored us with their challenge. They showed they are true warriors. If you will note, we did not refuse BECAUSE of the edict. We refused to allow the Hellion's to make themselves hypocrits, since THEY support it.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 02:27:54 AM
Quote from: NVA on July 21, 2010, 07:51:19 PM
ilKhan's ban and trials and we would not want to have you be cowardly hypocrits by now ignoring the ilKhan. Further, we have already accepted a trial for this world from Clan Blood Spirit.
Can I ask how you justify refusing a ToP from one Clan, but accept it without comment from another? The ilKhan said no ToPs, meaning anyone doing it is undertaking an illegal trial; and also, the Hellions didn't support it, because it was an edict posted by the ilKhan, so your argument for refusing their ToP should prolly be changed.
Explain to me how the Wolves know of the Hellions supporting the measure? I don't remember ever seeing anything by them stating that it was a good idea...
Infact, by launching a ToP against the Wolves, they're ignoring it in the same fashion as the Spirits
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 02:37:12 AM
Explain to me how the Wolves know of the Hellions supporting the measure? I don't remember ever seeing anything by them stating that it was a good idea...
Infact, by launching a ToP against the Wolves, they're ignoring it in the same fashion as the Spirits
All trials launched are recorded on the Chatterweb. I believe the Hellion's have hidden behind the trial ban previously.
Nope, just looked: nobody has targeted them for a Trial in the past 2 turns, and the edict is only a turn old.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 02:48:48 AM
Nope, just looked: nobody has targeted them for a Trial in the past 2 turns, and the edict is only a turn old.
Edict predated that. That was the renewal of the edict. HOWEVER, it doesn't matter. It is an IC argument. :)
Besides, the Spirits haven't violated the Trial ban, either. We are engaging an Abjured Clan; in essence, we recognize that the Exiles have essentially taken over the Crusader Wolves, even though there are Clans that will scream and cry that the Exiles' takeover isn't legal, yadda yadda.
So the Spirits' position is simple: an Abjured Clan isn't covered under the Trial ban, and we're free to engage them as we please. If you disagree, DK, well, we'll have it out IC like we're supposed to. I'm really not all that worried about it, since the Hellions AND the Horses are doing the same thing we are.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 04:51:28 AM
Besides, the Spirits haven't violated the Trial ban, either. We are engaging an Abjured Clan; in essence, we recognize that the Exiles have essentially taken over the Crusader Wolves, even though there are Clans that will scream and cry that the Exiles' takeover isn't legal, yadda yadda.
If anyone asks (and noone has) the GL agrees with this position: the Trial at Tamar was a Trial of Possession and the Posessed assets now belong to a group of Abjured bandits. Where it gets a bit muddy is that the ilKhan has nullified that Trial as inappropriate, but the Wolves have refused to comply. You can argue that you're enforcing the ilKhan's will against traitors if you like.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 04:51:28 AM
So the Spirits' position is simple: an Abjured Clan isn't covered under the Trial ban, and we're free to engage them as we please. If you disagree, DK, well, we'll have it out IC like we're supposed to. I'm really not all that worried about it, since the Hellions AND the Horses are doing the same thing we are.
Laurie Tseng will back you on this one. The Trial Ban only applies between loyal Clans, which the Wolves are not by any measure. They are not represented in the Hall of Khans (and Laurie will not admit any representatives unless instructed otherwise) and they do not obey the ilKhan's orders -- as such they cannot be protected by them.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 05:01:33 AM
If anyone asks (and noone has) the GL agrees with this position: the Trial at Tamar was a Trial of Possession and the Posessed assets now belong to a group of Abjured bandits. Where it gets a bit muddy is that the ilKhan has nullified that Trial is inappropriate, but the Wolves have refused to comply. You can argue that you're enforcing the ilKhan's will against traitors if you like.
Laurie Tseng will back you on this one. The Trial Ban only applies between loyal Clans, which the Wolves are not by any measure. They are not represented in the Hall of Khans (and Laurie will not admit any representatives unless instructed otherwise) and they do not obey the ilKhan's orders -- as such they cannot be protected by them.
And that's exactly the approach I've taken, too. If the Wolves insist on following through with their chosen course of action, then they've forfeited their place at the big boys' table for good. And since I don't need to ask permission to enforce Clan law, we've taken it upon ourselves to carry out that Abjuration... but with honor and dignity, for they might be bandits and out-caste, but they are still the Clan of Kerensky, and they deserve the last drops of honor that I have left to offer them.
Also, to answer your question about why the Wolves are ignoring the Hellions' Trial, DK? They're ignoring it because they're already engaged in a Trial with the Spirits over the very same thing you're Trialing for. Whether they can do so or not, as NVA has pointed out, is something to be worked out IC. But we already challenged their Khan directly a week ago in realtime (Dave and Josh were CCed on all that, so they have documentation), so the Hellions (and Horses, too, I see) have basically shown up late to the party.
Tassa, I've no idea why you felt the need to defend your trial when I didn't say anything about it. I asked why the Wolves refused the Hellions a trial for a non-existant reason, so that he could change it to something that made sense. I've no idea why this had to blow up into 3 different people discussing the state of the Wolves, when i didn't say anything about it.
You asked a question, and I answered it. No need to get defensive about it.
Look whose talking. I didn't aim the question at you, and it was answered before you said anything.
Um, is there a particular reason you're being so hostile to me right now? Because last I checked, this thread was public, and I can answer any question I damned well please. You also accused the Spirits of engaging in an illegal Trial, and THAT was the point I was actually addressing. And since the situation DOES involve me, I'm also entitled to share my perspective on it as well. And while I'm on the subject, what's *your* interest in the situation? It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with NVA, Marlin, and myself. Just sayin'.
I asked NVA why your trial was legal and the Hellions wasn't. The combat boards are public, so i can comment on anything I want, can't I? Just like its public here.
And I said the ToP was illegal, because they are. Untill Jedi said otherwise, I didn't realize the Wolves were considered abjured- considering the GC undertook a vote to abjure them, how can they already be abjured? Fine, they're abjured- your trial is legal. But he can't have your trial be legal, and the Hellions' illegal. Doesnt work that way. Not that he gets to make that call, considering he is in no way an offical Clan anymore.
Thats my point. I had no issue with you running the Trial, because even if i tried, you'd ignore anything Diana or the Falcons had to say. So i wasn't going to fight a battle I couldn't win. And i wasn't trying to start a fight or anything- trying to clear something up that didn't look right to me. It was resolved with NVA's last post, and I had forgotten about it untill i saw there were 5 more messages about it. And I'm not being hostile, not at all. If you took what I said the wrong way, theres nothing I can really do about that.
Felt like jumping in with my legal opinion is all. Sorry, boss.
:P
don't know why you're aplogizing, nobody is mad here. atleast I'm not anyways.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 05:40:55 AM
I asked NVA why your trial was legal and the Hellions wasn't. The combat boards are public, so i can comment on anything I want, can't I? Just like its public here.
And I said the ToP was illegal, because they are. Untill Jedi said otherwise, I didn't realize the Wolves were considered abjured- considering the GC undertook a vote to abjure them, how can they already be abjured? Fine, they're abjured- your trial is legal. But he can't have your trial be legal, and the Hellions' illegal. Doesnt work that way. Not that he gets to make that call, considering he is in no way an offical Clan anymore.
Thats my point. I had no issue with you running the Trial, because even if i tried, you'd ignore anything Diana or the Falcons had to say. So i wasn't going to fight a battle I couldn't win. And i wasn't trying to start a fight or anything- trying to clear something up that didn't look right to me. It was resolved with NVA's last post, and I had forgotten about it untill i saw there were 5 more messages about it. And I'm not being hostile, not at all. If you took what I said the wrong way, theres nothing I can really do about that.
Actually, there is nothing but the threat of being thought a coward or someone just attacking you anyway to prevent a Clan or a warrior from refusing a trial or at least most trials.
You have used it more then once yourself. Not trying to nitpick here.
And while no one is angry yet. May I suggest a new topic?
How about how awesome the FWL is? Take that elsie...take it! Heh!
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 05:40:55 AM
I asked NVA why your trial was legal and the Hellions wasn't. The combat boards are public, so i can comment on anything I want, can't I? Just like its public here.
Glad you understand that. Keep that in mind next time you ask me why I'm speaking out on a situation that I'm actually
directly involved in, because you just answered your own question.
QuoteAnd I said the ToP was illegal, because they are. Untill Jedi said otherwise, I didn't realize the Wolves were considered abjured- considering the GC undertook a vote to abjure them, how can they already be abjured? Fine, they're abjured- your trial is legal. But he can't have your trial be legal, and the Hellions' illegal. Doesnt work that way. Not that he gets to make that call, considering he is in no way an offical Clan anymore.
This is the Clans, friend. NVA can say anything he wants, because might makes right. It's up to the Hellions as to how they're going to proceed from that point. Yes, NVA's reasoning is a little shaky, but that's typical for the Clans. Honestly, if I were NVA, I'd have just told Marlin that I'm already engaged in a Trial and that he'd be the one breaking Clan law for interfering in it. A bit shaky since the Wolves are Abjured and all, but it's a better response than the one actually given.
Also, NVA can refuse any Trial he wants to, because Trials are refused all the time. I shouldn't have to tell you that, of all people, should I? And the Wolves themselves, *before* their Abjuration, have also exercised that right (when the Sharks, IIRC, challenged them at one of their DP holdings). It's really up to the Hellions as to how they want to proceed, but he could refuse their Trial for any number of reasons... not least of which being that, since they aren't considered to be "Clan" anymore, they don't have to follow Clan law.
QuoteThats my point. I had no issue with you running the Trial, because even if i tried, you'd ignore anything Diana or the Falcons had to say. So i wasn't going to fight a battle I couldn't win. And i wasn't trying to start a fight or anything- trying to clear something up that didn't look right to me. It was resolved with NVA's last post, and I had forgotten about it untill i saw there were 5 more messages about it. And I'm not being hostile, not at all. If you took what I said the wrong way, theres nothing I can really do about that.
Fantastic that your question was answered. But don't try to call me out because I decided that I wanted to add my own perspective as an
active participant in the situation at hand. You also said that my Clan was engaging in an illegal Trial, and I was refuting your assertion. Which is my right, since it's a public conversation and all.
And no, I'm not mad in the slighest. I'm amused, if anything.
For what it's worth a Trial of Possession is a slightly different case than a Trial of Grievance.
In a typical case (supposing that such Trials have not been forbidden) the defender is actually obliged to defend. Nothing in Clan Law stops the challenger from merely waltzing in and taking what he wants anyway. To refuse the Trial is literally to offer no contest to the batchall's claim of rightful ownership. If you resisted after declining the Trial, you'd technically be the one in violation.
I agree with that assessment, believe me. I'm just saying that he CAN always say no, and the Hellions can either choose to respect that, or they can move in regardless. It's not like NVA has anything to lose, because the Wolves are Abjured, anyway.
Quote from: DisGruntled on July 21, 2010, 11:58:46 PM
Being attacked by spheroids and greedy Rimmers I can understand. (and I think it's funny that almost everyone else appears to have gotten more troops in the AC then the AC originally did ;) ) Being attacked by one of our former allies (whose OZ we originally carved out) out of the blue with no notice a bit less so especially if they end up invading. Any chance for an OOC or IC explanation on the reasoning on it Holt?
I just finished a 10+ hour day moving a new colleague into his new home in the lovely 90-100 degree weather and near 100% humidity of south GA. As such I'm gong to hold off posting up any Adder stuff till tomorrow after I've recovered a bit.
The Cats have been planning to hit those worlds for many turns now and started hitting them last turn, per the guidelines Dave gave me (Since the cats i do not fully run).
IC:
In case i have missed something, the Adder Commonwealth isnt Clan Star Adder, they have not been given special treatment by the Grand Council, or been properly absorbed into Clan Star Adder; i.e. via conquest.
To the Cats and probably many clans the Adder Commonwealth is still an Inner Sphere state, until such time as they are properly absorbed by Clan Star Adder via Clan law approved methods, they are free game.
Just because you wear changed jerseys doesnt mean you fully joined that team.
OCC:
The Adder Commonwealth is a separate faction, having their own spreadsheet, budget and color; to my knowledge. If they were really Clan Star Adder they would be one faction only.
Quote from: Holt on July 22, 2010, 06:13:45 AM
The Cats have been planning to hit those worlds for many turns now and started hitting them last turn, per the guidelines Dave gave me (Since the cats i do not fully run).
IC:
In case i have missed something, the Adder Commonwealth isnt Clan Star Adder, they have not been given special treatment by the Grand Council, or been properly absorbed into Clan Star Adder; i.e. via conquest.
IC:
What the Adders did is not that different from Ulric sending Phelan to take 1 world for the Wolves from the FRR (cant recall the name of the planet off hand, though I am thinking it was Tamar, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that), we just did it on 1) a grander scale; 2) used the Lyran Collapse to our advantage; 3) used name recognition, also to our advantage; and 4) asked (though this was pretty much Phelan's way of "conquering" as well)
There was no need to grant them special status/treatment since the issue was not raised, to my knowledge the GC accepted the ACW as Adder Territory, accepted the method that gained the Adder those worlds, and accepted the concept of placing a Clan Warrior on the Lyran Throne.
QuoteTo the Cats and probably many clans the Adder Commonwealth is still an Inner Sphere state, until such time as they are properly absorbed by Clan Star Adder via Clan law approved methods, they are free game.
Just because you wear changed jerseys doesnt mean you fully joined that team.
IC:
Better check a GC thread, Stanislav stated pretty much that those worlds are Adder Territory and would be defended as such, and no one disagreed with him at that time....hell, no one even raised their voice at the time protesting the HOW the Adders got those worlds, so by the lack of objection, in the minds of the Adders, those worlds belong to Clan Star Adder (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=499.15, 9th paragraph).
And by the above logic, guess that means that the worlds the Cats currently occupy that were once Lyran should be Adder as well since 1) they are the ones that took them in military combat, and 2) Adders essentially gave them, with several conditions, to the Cats...there was no Challenge, no military conflict of any kind between the two Clans...so feel free to give those back anytime since you never Trialed for them
And since the Cats, nor anyone else, complained as to HOW the Cats gained those former Adder worlds...they were given to them; then that can be viewed as how the worlds came into the Adder Commonwealth, they gave themselves to the Adders
How many planets have joined a Clan that were never actually conquered, they just gave up rather than fight? How many just surrendered without a shot being fired? How many worlds should no longer be treated as being part of a Clan because they do not meet the one criteria you just cited...No Military Conflict.
QuoteOCC:
The Adder Commonwealth is a separate faction, having their own spreadsheet, budget and color; to my knowledge. If they were really Clan Star Adder they would be one faction only.
OOC:
Sub-Faction at best, in a sense the ACW could be seen as a variant of the kindraa (bad choice for comparison I know, then how about the Duchies, Counties, and all the other pieces that make up the FWL), and we, the Adder Players, were given the option of doing it all on one Sheet, but I felt that it was time for me to learn how to fill them out, organize them, one day understand them, and to take some of the burden off Dis who has been doing the Adder Orders since the beginning (which I have stated on more than one occasion on a couple of threads).
And if you've noticed, there is no separate ACW IC thread, anything that pertains to it will be handled in the Adder IC thread. Only the UIW and RWR, of all the Lyran Factions, have their own IC threads. Which is a damn good OOC indication that the ACW is not independent per se.
I've played the ACW IC as being part of Clan Star Adder, at
least 2, if not 3 since the Ravens didn't blast the defecting forces out of the sky, other Clans HAVE accepted the ACW as part of Clan Star Adder (check the Falcon and Hellion IC threads), and considering the ability of the Chatterweb at spreading news, it sure as hell is public knowledge to all the Clans that those two Clans are treating the ACW as part of the Adders...including the News Broadcast made by the Falcon Khan (or was it saKhan) that any and all Lyran forces that choose to follow Charlamagne would be granted amnesty, and be allowed to journey through their Space in in order to join him in the "Adder Commonwealth".
Though if you want, I can ask Dis to do the whole works just to placate you, if he is willing to accept the addition of the extra workload, then next turn the ACW will, in all aspects, be treated as part of the Adders...one Sheet, one Color, one...oh wait, those'd be the only things that really change, Stanislav would still be the Khan, Charlamagne would still be the Military Administrator for a portion of Adder Territory, Charlamagne would still be Archon-Designate of the Lyran Commonwealth, and the term Adder Commonwealth would just be shifted to be all inclusive for all the Adder OZ.
I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 07:27:08 AM
I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.
Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position. If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 22, 2010, 07:32:29 AM
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 07:27:08 AM
I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.
Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position. If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.
Well, I said it's another thing. By that I didn't mean to say it was suspect, necessarily. Rather that it was complex.
The RasDom, for example, has some soldiers that are Clan Warriors (and thus entitled to battle honors and the like) and others that are not. The faction exists through a legally interesting alliance between Clan Ghost Bear and the Free Rasalhague Republic, which continue to exist as fundamentally separate legal entities with no clear authority between them. In practice, the Warrior Caste pretty much runs things, but more as the majority political party than the way most Clans run their affairs.
And the Rasalhague Dominion might well be illegal. I haven't actually quite worked through all the ramifications of it. Some aspects are especially alarming. You have to recall, I wasn't in on this thing in the first place, and the guys who did weren't exactly interested in that sort of thing.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 07:43:18 AM
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 22, 2010, 07:32:29 AM
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 07:27:08 AM
I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.
Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position. If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.
Well, I said it's another thing. By that I didn't mean to say it was suspect, necessarily. Rather that it was complex.
The RasDom, for example, has some soldiers that are Clan Warriors (and thus entitled to battle honors and the like) and others that are not. The faction exists through a legally interesting alliance between Clan Ghost Bear and the Free Rasalhague Republic, which continue to exist as fundamentally separate legal entities with no clear authority between them. In practice, the Warrior Caste pretty much runs things, but more as the majority political party than the way most Clans run their affairs.
And the Rasalhague Dominion might well be illegal. I haven't actually quite worked through all the ramifications of it. Some aspects are especially alarming. You have to recall, I wasn't in on this thing in the first place, and the guys who did weren't exactly interested in that sort of thing.
You and I both know how it looks from an objective, deeply ensconced in canon perspective....but from an IN CHARACTER perspective, the Adders have a legitimate beef due to precedence in the Grand Council (as well as recognition by members of that body.) Based on the relationships and debts incurred, the Spirit Cats'
actions are Dezgra in the extreme, it would be different if they had a long-running feud with the Star Adders (the Blood Spirits could do it and not be breaking their honour, for instance)...However, this is stabbing an ally you owe something to in the back, in the middle of a War against the most Savashri, Dezgra, Chalcas enemy in the history of the Grand Council-at a critical moment when a member OF that Council has effectively managed to encircle and isolate the bulk of the enemy's field forces without losing a single warrior.
At barest MINIMUM the Cats should have issued a challenge to Khan N'Buta in the Grand Council for a piece of that action. Based on what I read here, this was not done before they initiated operations. (as the territory in question is strategically valuable, and the No-I mean "Spirit" cats did not follow proper Clan procedure to trial for the corridor...)
The territory in question has been recognized as Star Adder land, it's strategically valuable, and represents a salient that can be used by the Grand Council's forces to speed up progress in the war, separate "False" SLDF forces from their base of support, and bring front-line forces within striking distance of the Enemy. This action not only deprives the Star Adders of territory, it also deprives the other CLANS of that territory and the right to challenge for it.
The UIW precedent does not apply here-as the Interclan Watch (unless, y'know, they're incompetent or something) can confirm that the UIW opened their borders to SafCon and offered a useful, even valuable service...and still, the Grand Council vote specifically grants only the right to
Trials against the UIW, while recognizing their sovereign right to exist-none of these things apply to the Star Adder territories in the former Commonwealth-those territories are clear Star Adder property and would at minimum require formal challenge to Star Adder forces-which forces have not (yet) been able to be fully present in the area.
In other words, it's theft and piracy, and violates CLAN law.
I wouldn't care, except that it's out-of-character for the Clan involved, and clearly a sock-puppet-spank.
Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well. Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?
It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying. Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.
Just an observation.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 08:51:58 AM
Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well. Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?
It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying. Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.
Just an observation.
Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me? Maybe an illusion...
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 22, 2010, 10:07:52 AM
Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me? Maybe an illusion...
Wouldn't be the first time. I remember, way back at the beginning, Ghost Bear's attempts to railroad me into a war with the DC. We both looked at the situation, said "Yeah, that's stupid" and stepped back from the brink.
Of course, we were both punished for it. I lost a Khan, Kurita lost an heir. But we never went the direction the GMs had intended.
All these comments about the ACW are interesting. About it being a part of CSA, etc. Except for one minor fact to me. The ACW did not accept Khan Stansilov or whoever as their leader. Instead, they are pushing an Adder-Steiner as Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth. They still want to be the 'Lyran' state. Now, if the Adders want to become the Lyran state...Then, they could agree to follow Archon Charlie Steiner...Though, that could go over REAL well in the GC. :)
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 22, 2010, 10:07:52 AM
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 08:51:58 AM
Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well. Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?
It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying. Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.
Just an observation.
Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me? Maybe an illusion...
Nonsense. The GMs use maglev to railroad Clan roleplaying - it reflects their superior technology.
That was a joke.
Ah, but the idea to push Charlie was Stan's idea, and the propaganda put out by the IS News Agencies has pretty much painted all Clan Warriors as being devoutly loyal to their Khan and Clan.
This "War of Propaganda" has been going on for years, like a decade or more since the Clans arrived, so how many people have been essentially brainwashed into believing that which they have been told by trusted reporters, their leaders and ComStar...that "the Clans are mindless killing machines who follow their leader without question or consideration of their actions".
Clan Star Adder has been waging a Public Relations War in return, they were one of the first, if not the first, to establish relations and an embassy with a Periphery Power, they were the the first Clan to help in the fight against the Arluna Flu epidemic, they were the only Clan to help or offer to help in the rebuilding of those worlds hardest hit by the Plague. They sent thousands of Lyran Soldiers back to their homes and families when by rights they could have made bondsmen of them all.
Yet "knowing" that "fact", and the facts based upon actions performed by the Adders, there are a total of 50 worlds in 31 Hexes that decided to back a Clan Warrior, so I am willing to bet that while they pay homage to Charlie, they know full well that he answers to the Khan. Most just pretend otherwise and go about their lives in the hopes that War won't come to their world, praising Charlie all the while.
The gamble and efforts put into the War of Words, "humanitarian aid" and "prisoner return" paid off big time, far beyond anything I (both IC and OOC) imagined.
For example, I live in the USA. I know who the current President is, but as long as the laws, edicts and whatnot he implements don't have a noticeable impact on my life, I'm not really going to notice he even exists. Same applied to Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Reagan. Before that I was really to young to care who the President was.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on July 22, 2010, 01:24:40 PM
Nonsense. The GMs use maglev to railroad Clan roleplaying - it reflects their superior technology.
I knew it!
Oh, I agree Grae, there is PLENTY of wiggle room with it. However, I do not believe it is as hard and fast as some are suggesting. First, 2 orders sheets means 2 factions. Second, 2 different leaders <Stan vs Charlie>. Third, the are propping Charlie up as the LYRAN Head of State. So, what does that mean for the Adders. Are they suggesting a merger making it one state? That has not happened yet and would be DAMNING for Charlie's attempt to be approved by the EG, I would think.
So, I know many see the ACW as a seperate entity, similar to the Exiles. Not 'clan', but clan-esque. I am surprised to see the role play of everyone playing clanner trials in the ACW, as these are not Clan Warriors trained in these ways. <Kudos to the Lyrans and their Trial of Apropreation>. Anyway...I am not telling you how to play it. I am pointing out there are other valid interpretations of what is happening and the CSC, in some peoples view of it, are in no way attacking CSA.
Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?
If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.
And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.
So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.
That is a valid opion based on your train of thought. But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey. It is not black and white. And, that is EXACTLY what makes it interesting and fun to play with. Black and White is not fun. Just like the FWL is working in grey areas that suits their purpose.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 02:04:43 PM
Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?
If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.
And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.
So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 01:53:31 PM
Oh, I agree Grae, there is PLENTY of wiggle room with it. However, I do not believe it is as hard and fast as some are suggesting. First, 2 orders sheets means 2 factions. Second, 2 different leaders <Stan vs Charlie>. Third, the are propping Charlie up as the LYRAN Head of State. So, what does that mean for the Adders. Are they suggesting a merger making it one state? That has not happened yet and would be DAMNING for Charlie's attempt to be approved by the EG, I would think.
Stan and Charlie could really care less about the EG...in their minds if the EG had really cared about the LC, then it wouldn't have collapsed, it's the people that were appealed to, so their the ones that will ultimately have the last word.
And to be perfectly honest its propping a Clan Star Adder Bloodnamed Warrior as Head of the Lyran State. If the Adders didn't have the Steiner Bloodname, then this whole idea wouldn't have seen the light of day, or the darkness of my imagination...lol
On such a large scale actual, full implementation of standard Clan anything would be doomed to failure, and ruin the whole, well, experiment...which this could be viewed as, using the recent past as inspiration and warnings
FedCom, after Hanse and Melissa got married, the LCAF suddenly underwent massive structure changes, so I can only conclude that the civilian sectors were similarly altered...
RasDom, years of proximity and interaction, lots of time to acclimate to each other as the GBD
which succeeded, and which failed....Adders are learning from history, which is, in my interpretation, their greatest strength
QuoteSo, I know many see the ACW as a seperate entity, similar to the Exiles. Not 'clan', but clan-esque. I am surprised to see the role play of everyone playing clanner trials in the ACW, as these are not Clan Warriors trained in these ways. <Kudos to the Lyrans and their Trial of Apropreation>. Anyway...I am not telling you how to play it. I am pointing out there are other valid interpretations of what is happening and the CSC, in some peoples view of it, are in no way attacking CSA.
I've tried to RP the naivety possessed by the ACW "military" in regards to Clan Trials [points to Leroy as prime example], some are acting according to what they've been told, hoping it garners them some brownie points more than likely, while others could care less as they're still in "LCAF Mode", and will probably stay that way until they're sat down and told "Nuh uh, we don't do things that way anymore. Now write 1000 times in the dirt with your boot knife,
I will not play smear the queer against opposing forces unless they break Zell first."
And I know most view the ACW as separate, and I expect it, in some respects I encourage it, for right now even they aren't sure what their "classifcation" is. Though as I pointed out, the only ones that matter to the Adders are the Clans, and since none objected in the GC, then they too agreed that the ACW is Adder Territory, and would be treated as such.
Now if the GM's, through Holt, have plans for the Cats (though wasn't there someone who was interested in playing them, or did he lose interest), then that's fine, I can role with the punches and will have fun with the RP until the Adders can spare a Galaxy or two to enforce their will on the uppity neighbors.
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 02:18:41 PM
That is a valid opion based on your train of thought. But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey.
Few things people think are grey are
actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.
But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.
Understood. The point is, the 'grey' area is what makes RP work. A game like this, if only black or white, would not be any fun. It is in the varying interpretations of things that we get conflict and issues to work with.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 02:18:41 PM
That is a valid opion based on your train of thought. But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey.
Few things people think are grey are actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.
But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 02:04:43 PM
Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?
If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.
And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.
So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.
To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.
I agree its plausible, and one never knows what the Cards are going to say.....
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 02:18:41 PM
That is a valid opion based on your train of thought. But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey.
Few things people think are grey are actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.
But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.
It is Grey. I can quite honestly develop a fully rational logical argument that the Wolves are not abjured under Clan Law.
I can develop a completely rational logical argument that the Wolves are abjured under Clan Law. Its all about interpretation. In the end since its the Clans someone will have a fight and it will settle the matter.
The Free Worlds League issue is completely grey. Is there a Lyran Commonwealth? As the Commonwealth is a government and its only two branchs do not exist right now in an official capacity. Archon and or Estates General. It can argue that there is no Lyran Commonwealth.
It can also pick any of the Lyran Successor states or a Lyran noble and say "That guy" is Archon. It's grey because no one can say "Because of statute etc your wrong"
When I took over as C-G I didn't negotiate the Lyran treaty but I did negotiate the Terran Hegemony Peace treaty. And I was very careful to give myself as much wiggle room as possible. So that is grey as well. I have actually by some view points broken the treaty but if you read the wording...I haven't broken a single article of the peace accord of the treaty. The treaty doesn't actually require me to not go to war with the Lyrans, it doesn't require me to maintain a buffer zone (only acknowledges that there is one in the Lyran treaty).
As someone said this setting is fun because everything is grey not black and white. Can the Lyran's villify the League? Certainly we can do the same, or not everyone has skeleton's everyone has been an angel and a demon and everything inbetween.
:-)
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 02:04:43 PM
Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?
If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.
And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.
So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.
To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.
To be fair your going to say the French King would not have made that fact as well as his propaganda had he the power to do so? Though now that I look at the rest of your reasoning we are largely in agreement. Whoever wins the Lyran Civil War will write the history books and his contenders will become "the horrible traitorous pretenders" and all his supporters will be sweetness and light.
Well, sure. I approach these things via Benjamin's "Zur Kritik der Gewalt" - the law can say whatever it wants, but it's nothing more than an illusion unless anyone decided to enforce it via, well, force. There's no one in the Commonwealth able to enforce the law in full at present, so sure, the existence of the Commonwealth is in doubt. That doesn't mean that the law is insignificant - it's got to be the basis of any rhetorical strategy that aims at its restoration, which is what I'm after IC. OOC, I see most of what Arc-Royal does as posturing, but as a posturing towards a time when these gestures will have obvious meaning once again.
Which is, I guess to say, just that I wouldn't take anything A-R says for granted OOC, but IC I try to make a good show of it.
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War;
I'll admit, I don't see it. In what way was Edward III a vassal of the French Crown?
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself.
And at this time he is a fully vetted member of the Clan Star Adder Warrior Caste.
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.
Actually, it's frankly absurd. He's an Adder warrior until he or the Warrior Council decide he's not.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 22, 2010, 03:06:30 PM
It is Grey. I can quite honestly develop a fully rational logical argument that the Wolves are not abjured under Clan Law.
Sure you can. Because no body with the right to Abjure them ever actually did.
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 22, 2010, 03:06:30 PM
I can develop a completely rational logical argument that the Wolves are abjured under Clan Law.
No, you can't. You can try, and you can think you did, but you can't. There's really absolutely no legal basis for it whatsoever.
Which is why the Clans in canon tend to generally ignore it.
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 02:43:55 PM
Understood. The point is, the 'grey' area is what makes RP work. A game like this, if only black or white, would not be any fun. It is in the varying interpretations of things that we get conflict and issues to work with.
I disagree entirely. It's actually that thinking that makes things absolutely no fun for a fair number of us. RP comes from a lot of places, and the only kind of RP that really comes from perceived Greyness is
bad RP.
Very good. I recognize and acknowledge our difference of opinion.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: NVA on July 22, 2010, 02:43:55 PM
Understood. The point is, the 'grey' area is what makes RP work. A game like this, if only black or white, would not be any fun. It is in the varying interpretations of things that we get conflict and issues to work with.
I disagree entirely.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 03:42:22 PM
I'll admit, I don't see it. In what way was Edward III a vassal of the French Crown?
This is pretty far from my expertise, so perhaps I am in the wrong, but the French Kings were still owed fealty by the English Kings according to the latter's inherited titles as Dukes of Normandy, at least in theory. In practice that didn't really play out, but it helped make things unhappy between England and France during the period.
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 03:58:04 PM
This is pretty far from my expertise, so perhaps I am in the wrong, but the French Kings were still owed fealty by the English Kings according to the latter's inherited titles as Dukes of Normandy, at least in theory.
I see. No, that's not correct.
While England was a French vassal state under William I, he divided his titles among his children upon his death. When his son Henry reclaimed Normandy, it was through force. Further, Henry III had renounced his claim to Normandy.
That's what I get for relying on memories of a book read years ago and more unfortunately, wikipedia.
I think for a time after that, during some of the crusades as memory serves, the French did insist that the English kings were normans and so their vassals anyway. I would speculate that at the time, the French, who had not had the sort of millitary and political setbacks at the hands of the English that were to come, still harbored a notion that they could actualy make something of it if push came to shove, but Europe has never been my strong point. I just remember a book on the crusades noting that there was tension on the 3rd because the King of England, while nominaly subserviant to the French King, was in all actuality not only totaly independant but a bit wealthier and more power.
Quote from: JediBear on July 22, 2010, 03:42:22 PM
Quote from: august on July 22, 2010, 02:57:43 PM
To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War;
I'll admit, I don't see it. In what way was Edward III a vassal of the French Crown?
In retaliation, Philip VI declared on 24 May 1337 that Edward had forfeited Aquitaine for rebellion and disobedience. Thus began the Hundred Years' War.
One cannot rebel against an equal. Now this has largely been attributed to only referring to English Lands in France. But had Philip or his heirs been more successful they would have applied it to all English Lands rendering the King of England a vassal of France.
Possibly citing that William the 1st was infact a French Duke at one point he promised tribute to the then King of France for support in claiming the Throne of England.
Mind you the King of France in the above scenario must conquer the channel and then England.
In the words of Fredrick The Great "First I shall take later I shall hire scholars to prove why I was right."
Ugh, all this European history... can we talk about big stompy robots and the factions that make them again? ;D
Mongoose SMACH!
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 04:32:47 PM
Ugh, all this European history... can we talk about big stompy robots and the factions that make them again? ;D
But...but...I haven't even gotten to the Vassa's yet!
Fine
STOMP STOMP STOMP
Urbie power!
STOMP STOMP STOMP
... Urbie... power?
...
...
...
You're Abjured from the Clan, Chaos. ;D
You know, you can build two Urbanmechs IIc for the cost of one of your silly Crimson Hawks. For the Blood Spirit bargain hunter who is willing to sacrifice fashion for firepower, perhaps Urbie power is the way to go.
doubtful.
Even for Blood Spirits, I think quality warriors are at more of a premium than that.
Plus, It's actually hard to beat protos for cost-performance.
You know how I feel about the Crimson Hawk (i.e., it doesn't really exist, it's just a really bad April Fool's joke). I just don't like Urbies whatsoever. They're ugly as sin and they don't stand out to me.
... hey, wait, they'll fit right in!
Question: I have another Recon Raid pending for Dustball, was it ok to put it into the invasion thread?
Marlin and others, just a small request - could you please in the future post what Lyran subfaction you're moving against in action threads? I realize now that most of those worlds are mine, but I had to look it up. Just so I don't miss these things, please let me know.
Wanna make me do the work, eh? ;)
Ok.
If you're the one opening the thread, yeah. When I come for you, I'll make sure I have my end taken care of. :P
@Marlin, it just makes things a bit easier as the number of threads gets rather large quickly.
Marlin was being sarcastic. Get off his nuts, plz.
Marlin's a hellion, so he'd better be accostomed to taking a bit of flack from time to time. He'll forget it in a half hour anyway, after all ;)
LOL...good one Tassa. @marlin nothing personal or untowards meant by my last post. It was an obsevation...finding who defending what is a P.I.T.A w/o labels :)
You guys realize that in the Dustball/Koniz thread, I'm the one who started it, yes? Not Marlin?
And it does say the faction that owns the hex(even though I incorrectly put it as Arc-Royal at the time).
I stand corrected Daemonkinght. My statement stands. Let's see if we can have lots of fun this turn. :)
Hey, friends, the ;) stands for fun.
So, next time please check if it is there. :D
All is good, though. Carry on..
[Hellion mode]What happened?[/Hellion mode]
;D
BTW, my question is still unanswered. Didnt want to bury it.
Quote from: Marlin on July 22, 2010, 07:19:59 PM
[Hellion mode]What happened?[/Hellion mode]
;D
LOL go Marlin!
techniclly, the Recon Raid would go before actual combat forces arrived...so I'd say just post it in, as we havn't seen what TH forces are there yet anyways. Would tell us what is there, so that we can see whats arriving(although we should already know from the intel reports...and its going to suck).
Just remember if there's no blockade you can always run away ;)
Yeah, considering whats there, and what potentially is coming...he might very well be doing that.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 22, 2010, 04:32:47 PM
Ugh, all this European history... can we talk about big stompy robots and the factions that make them again? ;D
Where are the mods when we need them to protect us from
history "politics"?!
Kidding aside, I was pleased to see our first real "politics" discussion on the board stay civil and professional.
Quote from: Marlin on July 22, 2010, 06:06:32 PM
Question: I have another Recon Raid pending for Dustball, was it ok to put it into the invasion thread?
That's exactly how I like it, keeps things organized.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 22, 2010, 07:22:35 PM
techniclly, the Recon Raid would go before actual combat forces arrived...so I'd say just post it in, as we havn't seen what TH forces are there yet anyways. Would tell us what is there, so that we can see whats arriving(although we should already know from the intel reports...and its going to suck).
Speaking in PMs and the intelligence reports that are in them, I have two announcements to make:
1) The limits on # of adressees and # sent per hour on PMs have been lifted. As long as this doesn't get abuse I plan to keep it that was permanently. So, send to as many folks as you need to, as often as you need to!
2) Reading between the lines, I am assuming that there has been a series of intelligence disclosure/discussion/analysis PMs going back and forth that I missed. Could somebody forward those to me? I like to keep in the loop about discussions like that, as it eases some of my administrative tasks (especially in terms of being ready with fluff/RP hooks/etc to rapidly respond to info requests and operations that are planned). Plus, frankly, I'm always impressed with the stuff you guys come up with when you work as a team and I enjoy watching events unfold.Related to point #3, please remember to include LittleH13 and I on any in-character PMs (incluiding planning PMs and other "IC written in an OOC voice" type communications).
In other news, Dave Baughman Enterprises announced today that they do not have enough messages to read. Having caught up, they are looking for a new massive backlog to not be able to get through.
Are those attacks against Clan Wolf by the CSA OrBomb?
Nope, no orbats are scheduled as these are the standard invasions. There was no HTM this cycle going to these three worlds. I made sure to check with Dave before submitting orders this cycle. ::)
No blockades either at any of them, though as I pointed out at Miquelon we were already in control of local space since you never contested it and have set up interdiction.
Good lord... are there any pending attacks on Arc Royal this cycle as well?
(the world proper, not the faction)
No that was a few worlds down the list, and might be postponed for a tad as it would need coalition attention. ;)
Ummm...Maybe :)
Dave- the intel i was referencing was the ICW intel reports you sent me. I disbursed the information you gave me, with the exception of the missions that failed to produce information, although I must say, you need to make up the failed intel reports more like the Terra report :) got quite the laugh from that.
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 23, 2010, 12:43:57 PM
Countess Livia Paltonae of Nusakan didn't even bother to hide the rolling of her eyes or the bored pursing of her lips. "I would rather the cyborg serve as our Director-General. I don't remember him blathering on at such length about his own personal qualifications. And frankly, he has a lot more personal charisma than you... and that is truly saying something."
Its called building a character's background Tassa. As I just made the char a few days ago, nobody has any idea what he is all about, whereas the Cyborg has been around for awhile. Its what we call roleplaying.
If you have a better method for introducing someone, I'm all for it. This is the quickest way for me to intro a char. I'd rather do that than simply say "I'm a Dragoon, vote for me!" and be done with it.
Quote from: Daemonknight on July 23, 2010, 12:49:14 PM
Its called building a character's background Tassa. As I just made the char a few days ago, nobody has any idea what he is all about, whereas the Cyborg has been around for awhile. Its what we call roleplaying.
Um, I was roleplaying as well, bud. Do you take *everything* this personally? If so, this game isn't gonna be for you. ;D
I only take it personally when every RP you aim at my characters is hostile from the onset. Notice that nobody else has done that, and also that nobody else ever hears from me.
I'm not being hostile. More wondering why you are all the time.
I mocked your THAC character because he spat out an incredibly long and boring speech where all he did was stroke himself. I mock Diana Pryde because you play her like a Spheroid politician that avoids fight instead of a Clan warrior that welcomes challenge.
It's called roleplaying, and it's unfortunate and sad (for me, that is) that I have to come here and explain this to you.
If you don't like it, I suggest you deal with it IC, instead of running to the OOC thread to whine about it, because it's starting to get really tiresome at this point. Every time something happens that you don't like, it somehow becomes a capital-I Issue.
Also, two other points: we've had plenty of RP that *hasn't* been hostile (see Foster and Shadow), and I wasn't the only one that mocked your character in the THAC, either. And yet, I'm the only one being called out on it. Selective memory is convenient when playing the martyr card, I suppose.
I'm with Tassa on this one. What he says to you here in the OOC, that's on him and you can form what oppinion you want of that. But what the Spirits do, or what his TAC guy or gal does? Maybe they're just all jerks? If so, that's an IC judgment, and good to know for your own IC interactions, but that's no reflection on the man himself. IC, the Spirits are known to be pretty hauty and aloof, so its reasonable for them to be jerks, and pretty much the entire TAC is at one another's throats all the time, so that's reasonable as well.
Now, that said, and I know my good friend in this area, be cool about it in general.
I just want to make public my current status. I am stepping back a little bit again. I will not place this on anyone, but, I do want to explain why.
I play this game for fun. Fun to me means there is occasionally a chance. Fun to me means role playing through grey areas versus absolutism. Fun to me means that IC angst rarely carries over OOC. Frankly, in general, I don't see this anymore. Instead, it is always 'how much force can I send to make sure I have 3 to 1 odds' or 'I say it is this way and I am the law for this part of the game so shut up' or similar. And, the OOC angst has been public. Again, this is not directed at anyone. I am evaluating if my desire for how to play this game fits with the way it is being played. I do not MM a lot. I do not have a lot of proxies to MM for me. So, most of the game is about the story and the role play. And, when the story and the roleplay gets to where it has been......
I can't say I completely disagree with you, either, NVA. I think stack-of-doom is abused shamelessly in this game, and while it might secure one wins, it's also pretty unsporting and doesn't inspire any great desire to continue playing with people who insist on going into every battle with half-a-page of units and overwhelming FP advantage. And that's to say nothing of the cliquishness and bad attitudes that I've seen as well, or people dragging every little thing that they don't like into a public forum and turning it into an issue. And there are other things as well, too, but I'll spare people my own personal opinion on what I think is poor gaming/roleplaying (because it'd be pretty arrogant to say so, despite having the right to my own opinion).
To paraphrase a friend, it seems like many feel that "fun" equates to how big their colored blob is on the map, or how much FP they have to throw into fights. And that's, well, childish and trite... to put it undeservedly kindly.
I won't defend some of what you see; I see it too.
But in regards to part of it, as you I think have always agreed, IC reasoning and decison making need to be the driving force for our actions. So when you look at the sort of millitary tactics being employed, or the sort of real-politic directed at your Wolves (or any other faction, if you're looking out for others, which perhaps you are) one needs to ask if its a reasonable responce based on how RP has shown the cherictors in qustion to feel, or just naked power gaming. I think in a lot of cases, it is a reasonable IC action to use heavy handed tactics, to politicaly strong arm opponents, to be a bully, or to do these things. The Wolves, and the peripher, and the Cappies, and the small clans, have always been underdogs, and I think that that is, for better or worse, part of the game.
Yes, it hurts the MM, which is increesingly rare. Maybe its just that I don't get to play much, but I don't think I see as many AARs as I once did. But this game is also about RP as well. Looking at our last two posters, I see two of our foremost RPers, people who had ought to be able to take adversity and make a good story of it. Sportsman ship is paramount for us as players, yes, but for our cherictors, in the game? What a better RP hook than your enemy being a bastard, save perhaps being a bastard yourself?
Oh, I've done exactly that with the Spirits, if you'll take note. And it's made for a good catalyst FOR a paradigm shift from Helm's stance of let's-come-out-of-our-shells-and-PARTICIPATE! to my own stance of screw-you-traitors-and-wannabe-Spheroids-we're-going-home. Doesn't mean that I have to enjoy the circumstances which brought it about in the first place, because I'd have loved to have been a more active participant in RP with others. Unfortunately, I can't do that AND accurately portray my characters or my Clan, because neither would stand for the sort of BS that dominates the Clans.
But I do try to deal with it IC, instead of making it into an OOC public spectacle, because that's what sportsmanship is all about. However, NVA also makes a great set of points, and I'll chime in support and say that it's been frustrating sometimes when each turn I'm handed defeats, mostly due to stacks-of-doom... or to the other Clans apparently giving Holt a free pass on nuking me. I just take it IC as "oh well, it proves they really are the false and traitorous bastards we knew them to be already", when OOC it concerns me that they've gotten off the hook completely.
I understand where you're coming from, NVA. All too damned well. And I don't like it, either.
IM - Should the politics in the game result in the Wolves being targetted? Sure. Should it result in every fight everyone in every faction <over dramtizing and generalizing> being calculating 3 to 1 odds. Should a TH v Clan fight, where both sides have stacks be fun? Sure. Is it fun when a single faction can and DOES attack mulitple locations with more FP than your entire faction has? Not just the Exiles. Not just me. I see this all over the place. I have had fights where I arrived to face the Star Adders and I had a galaxy against a cluster. You know what, except in one case, when they bid a cluster, I took that or less. That one place was a specific situation of a force showing they could respond the same way they were treated. And, I chose to do it once. I was more interested in the game being fun for everyone than in winning. And, I lost some of those fights I could have EASILY won. That is how I play a game. I am not saying others are wrong. I am saying, if the win at all cost mentality is how players believe this game should be played and that my definition of sportmanship is not shared, then I am in the wrong place. I am not trying to force my definition of sportsmanship and fun on everyone.
If I can chime in, these posts reflect the frustration that I'm having at the moment. With A-R's defenders as scattered or worse than the rest of the Lyran splinters, I'm unable to defend my own worlds for my first cycle on board and perhaps farther. As it stands, I'm going to lose a full third of my worlds on the first turn to Clan doomstacks dropped on militia, refusing any challenges. At the moment, I feel like the putz who writes fluff for the dumb subalterns who stand no chance that will be forgotten as soon as the worlds pass from my feeble grasp - it will probably be the case that Wroclaw and the other worlds immediately decide that the occupiers aren't all that bad and that their previous culture and history was a load of bunk anyway.
Take it for what it's worth, I'm just venting my spleen. But already I'm questioning investing time in a faction that seems to have stood no chance of existing for more than a cycle or two. I enjoy the game and I'd like to play it with you guys, not as a minor accessory to what was foregone from the start.
Just throwing this out there, but if there is consensus that doomstacks are making the game un-fun (and frankly, I personally think they
do detract from the experience), I can make them go away.
In Flashpoint, the combat rules are structured so that while bringing a large force is advantageous, it does not equate to an instant crushing victory. They also gave militia more in the way of teeth so that an invasion against an ungarrisoned planet - while it would still almost always end in victory for the invader - would at least take a few turns and give opportunities for tactics and roleplaying. Those same rules can be ported into FGC, but...
- Everyone would have to change their strategies and there would be a pretty steep learning curve.
- Once its done, it would be permanent.
I think there's something to be said from a narrative point of view about the epic battles that seem to define FGC, but at the same time there is definitely a lot less megamek being played than in, say, turn 21.
As for the issue of personality conflicts and sportsmanship though... that's a harder one to address. My preference is to treat everyone like adults, but that means to some extent letting out-of-game friction between players show through as long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse. Honestly, I hope I don't have to become more proactive in butting into personal disagreements, because I don't want to be the "Intelser policeman" if you follow me.
Stack of Doom is not inherently bad. I love some of the Stack of Doom vs Stack of Doom battles. I don't want to see it in every case. And, in some cases, I scratch my head as to why combined forces would be working together they way they do. But, that is why I am evaluating my place. I am acknowledging it may be my view of the situation that does not match the game.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on July 23, 2010, 03:42:24 PM
I think there's something to be said from a narrative point of view about the epic battles that seem to define FGC, but at the same time there is definitely a lot less megamek being played than in, say, turn 21.
There are also a lot less players in her than in turn 21. We have one guy cover 4! factions. That this cannot be good for MM is obvious. Most factions have only one player. I would really like some more MM and the Raids I do just now are one chance for it, but RL is on us as well (besides time schedules). Either you expand the turns so that RP and MM can be played out broader, or do it other ways, which I would not like.
The stacks of doom are a side-effect of the game going on for so long. Earlier on, throwing these kinds of stacks around would have left your border wide-open for a mass invasion pretty much everywhere else. Now, people have had enough time to build up defenses and be able to throw these stacks around, or they've secured their borders with other neighbors through edicts of the Star League/Grand Council.
My response to one of these stacks in pretty much any of the factions I've run would've been to unleash the nukes. I'm not sure why nobody has yet.
Ares II Signatories. Factions who believe in the honor of their faction. Etc...
ALso, not everyone has one
Well, that's your own doing, then.
Some of us like to be bastards. ;D
Quote from: Aleksandr on July 23, 2010, 05:41:07 PM
The stacks of doom are a side-effect of the game going on for so long. Earlier on, throwing these kinds of stacks around would have left your border wide-open for a mass invasion pretty much everywhere else. Now, people have had enough time to build up defenses and be able to throw these stacks around, or they've secured their borders with other neighbors through edicts of the Star League/Grand Council.
My response to one of these stacks in pretty much any of the factions I've run would've been to unleash the nukes. I'm not sure why nobody has yet.
Um Nukes have been used *Points to Roche* Though I wouldn't call what the B Spirits brought to Roche a Stack of Doom.
As to why not elsewhere? Lyrans fell apart before the Nuke rules came about otherwise Im sure the loonies would have been passing them out like Medal's to Elsie Social Generals.
As for why not some other factions? Dark hasn't really given the FS A good target yet for them. Taurians are probably saving their's for when the FS invades.
Me? Well its not in my best interests....yet.
;D
Believe me, you have no idea how close Strana Mechty got to being nuked this turn. My finger was literally on the firing button, ready to exert just enough pressure to launch. But I got over it. It makes me sad, though, when I think about it.
Part of the stakkodoom problem, is that it generates a STATIC front, with force concentrations in 'game preserves"-which just makes the situation worse.
Look at the maps between turn 26 and the current situation-it's rippled a little bit, but it's very close to the same map after two in-game years of fighting, and really I don't see much effort being put into figuring out how to change the equation without altering the rules.
Its a bit WWI style, but I think that reflects a tactical choice, rather than a rules based choice.
There was a lot of dynamisim in the opening turns of the war, with the Adder's flanking offensive, the Mandrill's penitrating drive, the Falcons consolodating. The arival of the Terrans changed things, so the Clans went on the defensive, abandoned their gains and got ready for what was comming. I think a lot of turns were all tied up in the big push on Sudeten, with some turns as build up, several turns of actual fighting to take and lose and retake and relose the world, and then the recovery.
I think even with out this Lyran melt down, we'd be seeing a return to some of the dynamisim. The Hellion offensive is a product of them being ready now, and not before. The Cats the same. Conversly, the Terrans were probing the middle of the Clan ranks, striking New C, Ridderkirk, and potentaly Tamar if not for the Wolves beating them to the punch.
Much like WWI, it started out fast paced, settled into the trenches as key objectives were aproached, and then broke back out as leadership changed and new forces arived to help.
And of course, OOC, some of the inaction was caused by man power shortages. The Mandrills were inactive not because it was IC to be, but because there was no one to move them. Some of Holts factions were the same. Even the Falcons struggled at times. That fix is a big part of the solution.
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 23, 2010, 07:50:29 PM
Its a bit WWI style, but I think that reflects a tactical choice, rather than a rules based choice.
There was a lot of dynamisim in the opening turns of the war, with the Adder's flanking offensive, the Mandrill's penitrating drive, the Falcons consolodating. The arival of the Terrans changed things, so the Clans went on the defensive, abandoned their gains and got ready for what was comming. I think a lot of turns were all tied up in the big push on Sudeten, with some turns as build up, several turns of actual fighting to take and lose and retake and relose the world, and then the recovery.
I think even with out this Lyran melt down, we'd be seeing a return to some of the dynamisim. The Hellion offensive is a product of them being ready now, and not before. The Cats the same. Conversly, the Terrans were probing the middle of the Clan ranks, striking New C, Ridderkirk, and potentaly Tamar if not for the Wolves beating them to the punch.
Much like WWI, it started out fast paced, settled into the trenches as key objectives were aproached, and then broke back out as leadership changed and new forces arived to help.
And of course, OOC, some of the inaction was caused by man power shortages. The Mandrills were inactive not because it was IC to be, but because there was no one to move them. Some of Holts factions were the same. Even the Falcons struggled at times. That fix is a big part of the solution.
I'm doing my part (and then some!)
Where are the Hellions being offensive!? We are very tolerant!! ;D
But well, its small enough. Smaller than I would want, but hey, the Clans are falling apart, so there is no more all-out style. :(
What makes stack so effective is the counter attack issue.
Alright now with how much FP people throw around even non Stack the current militia is a speed bump.
But the fact is if you run into a 1FP militia you get held up like you would from a fight with a 10 FP Mech Regiment.
Perhaps a benefit of only facing Militia would be that if you win you can attack another hex deeper into enemy territory. That would discourage the stack as right now if someone does go around the stack you can always respond the next turn (without much loss) with the stack.
I am still not a fan of the instant militia. You conquer a world and hand it back to the people to defend for you? Ummm...No.
Its an intresting rule, which got some discussion for the new game. My innital thinking went to raids, so that if you did a raid and no one was home, you could still have some MM.
But, what it does is creates a minimum. If undefended worlds were literaly undefended, then I could send anything to take a world. "I send a platoon of infantry, worth 0FP. Which takes 0MP to move, and I can create any number of them from my Factories." Even if we make the minimum >0, then I can use .125 FP of light introductory tech armor, or some other micro unit. As it is, the minimum is often though of as 3, though I like to use 2. That is still 16-24mes more than the minimum if there is no free millita. What could the Adders have done in their offensive several turns ago? Or the FWL against the Lyrans back when?
I wouldn't mind at least thinking about letting attacks strike more quickly over undefended worlds, mind you. It seems like it would be a bit more dynamic. But, we'd need to think very carefuly about it.
I didn't say no free miiltia. I said no INSTA militia. So, you take a world, you either have no defense or you leave line units for X turns. You have to secure it still. Some factions have started creating sheeted militia, meaning more than the 1 FP free. I am cool with thet. I don't have massive units at every world. But, I have real units at every world. I don't use the free miltia, because I think it is unclanlike. Now, some have argued that the free militia is like PGCs. My take on that is...PGCs are 'second' line formations, not 'militia'. To me, that 1 FP of militia in clan speak is the local police force.
3rd line units and solahma would be the closest thing to a planetary militia within the Clans. I agree that if you take a world, there shouldn't automaticlly be a milita in place the next turn, even for IS in most cases. I think it is dependant on more factors.
Take Sudeten: its been under Clan control for a large period of time, especially so before the TH retook it, with atleast a generation or two having been brought up indoctrinated to Clan society. Therefore, attacking a long-time Clan world would be the same for an IS nation to attack, as the Clans hitting a large-pop IS world. I think there could be some way of determining loyaltly to one's masters: either a set number of turns, or something else, but its purpose is to make it both more interesting to conquor a world, and also plays into the militia factor.
A Lyran world is conquored by Clan Star Adder. Right off the bat, some of the locals will embrace the Clans: the usual assortment that'll align with any invader in the hopes that they'll climb the social ladder for it. So there might verywell be a milita on planet, but it'd be extremly tiny: maybe .5 FP or armor or light mechs. As the Adders occupy the planet for longer and longer time periods, the number of people who're loyaly to the Clan increases, slowly increasing the size of the militia to its maximum: say 5FP of mixed armor and mechs.
Likewise, becauase the populace is recently conquored, its going to required subjigating, meaning that the Adders will need to garrison some of their line combat units there to keep order while the militia trains its small influx of troops. It would also make the world more susceptible to Special Forces missions like Terrorism, or Assassination(there would be large shifts in the local govornment, so it'd be harder to keep track of everyong coming in-system or whatnot).
The end result would be a time limit to get a usefull force of militia. Also, worlds with under 3FP militia might, as was sugested before, allow a unit to move and attack a 2nd target because it was such a quick battle.
Guys, can anyone tell e what is happening in the LC? and what happened to the TH? I left in T37, now i am lurking the FC62 forums and see the LC divided in 3 or 4 factions, one sided with the CSA i think, and Tharkard radioactive? ein?
Current LC= Nuke plus Clanner Claimant+False Estates General+RObert Keslwa-Stiener +Loonies independant+Resuregent RWR Add Nondi for extra flavor. ;) :D ;D
Drop me a PM Mekorig and I'll try to explain. The above was with a large dose of humor. ;)
False Estates-General. That's pretty amusing. ;)
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 24, 2010, 03:43:46 AM
False Estates-General. That's pretty amusing. ;)
Hey now the FWL has played it's part in events as well. Shepherding the new states and being a veritable Arsenal of Democracy....for thems that can pay. :-)
*does finger rubbing motion*
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 24, 2010, 03:43:46 AM
False Estates-General. That's pretty amusing. ;)
You're welcome.
This message brought to by the LIC and the number 2 and the letter H ;D
Quote from: Mekorig on July 24, 2010, 02:46:37 AM
Guys, can anyone tell e what is happening in the LC? and what happened to the TH? I left in T37, now i am lurking the FC62 forums and see the LC divided in 3 or 4 factions, one sided with the CSA i think, and Tharkard radioactive? ein?
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 24, 2010, 03:37:47 AM
Current LC= Nuke plus Clanner Claimant+False Estates General+RObert Keslwa-Stiener +Loonies independant+Resuregent RWR Add Nondi for extra flavor. ;) :D ;D
Drop me a PM Mekorig and I'll try to explain. The above was with a large dose of humor. ;)
You know I have to say that Deathrider6 is prolific with his RP, but somewhere on July 24, 3069 a nuclear weapon went off on Thakard that destroyed the government of the Lyran Commonwealth including Archon Peter Steiner-Davion (probably but after getting out of a coma he survived too many times at this point) and the Estates-General. Already at that point, the Rim World Republic was back, and they finally freed Daphne Rowe and somehow Adam Steiner came back from the dead to lead the much hated and maligned reborn nation-state. Now controlled by DXM.
But there are four other groups. There is the Arc-Royal remnants which has an Estates-General situated on Arc-Royal, and it's run by August. Then there is Skye-Donegal Remnant lead by Duke Robert Kewlsha-Steiner and his Estate-General, and it is lead by Deahtrider6. Then there is the ever interesting Union of Independent Worlds lead by Cannonshop. And then there is the faction that includes Coventry that wants Charlemagne Steiner to rule them. The Star Adder Commonwealth as it is nicknamed at the moment, and its run by the Star Adders. If any of these states survive for awhile, I'll be surprised considering that Arc-Royal and the UIW are in the targets of the Clannish hordes.
And at this point, I have to wonder why there aren't worlds in this mess clamoring for the Yvonne to return, maybe the One Star Faith, or maybe a faction that worships a kitten that they think is possessed by the ghost of Katherine Steiner-Davion? Considering that there is a group of worlds that really want the RWR Sharky over their heads, you have to wonder why there aren't people clamoring for the FistBurst to be on their flagpole? Or that cat one. Herb would approve. Though I imagine if the Adders want to that they can claim that the One Star Faith is highly powerful in their piece of the pie which would make control of the populace better.
Considering that I'm retired due to being in charge of the 3010 game where we are still hammering away at getting the rules right, I don't want to give Fatebringer more headaches with a piece of the Lyran pie for the FedSuns considering that he has to deal with the ever destructive and somewhat laconic Dark with their galaxies, warships, and 100 ton LAMs of DOOM. Adding in possibly himself as a enemy along with the rest of the Clans would probably drive him a bit misanthropic and hopefully not the gutters of Baltimore.
Though I did help Fatebringer by getting the Taurians to believe that the FedSuns wasn't attacking them before I left. Sure I had to surrender the rights to two worlds to accomplish it, but at that point, they were already conquered so who cared. In a lot of ways, I did leave him with a bunch of unresolved stuff. That includes those 100 Ton Lams of Doom. Fear the 100 Ton Lams of DOOM piloted by smoked kitties for they use broken sporks to gauge the eyes out of their victims.
And on that note, I think that have put enough injokes in there for the night. Back to lurker mode.
Well I think Harlock about covered it.
In an old interview with Bill Gates I heard the other day from back when he was being sued for anti-competitive practices, he was asked why Microsoft what doing what it was doing. He said that he didn't feel like a giant, he still felt like a little start up, that the next big thing was going to come along and crush him any day. The tech world, he said, is so fluid that they couldn't afford not to bring their A game, to do all they could to stay alive in the industry, and even now we see him proven true. Apple has risen like the phoenix, and is assendant in the market place in some ways. Had someone predicted this ten years ago, they would have been laughed at I think, and yet Gates himself seems to have.
I think that mentality, or a veriant of it, is present in this game. We look at comments that speak to big factions just stomping on little ones, and a lack of sportsman ship preceved in that. Is there some of that? Perhaps there is. It is the role of the big factions to play a bit nice, because they've got a lot of advantages.
The problem is that the two big factions I've been a part of don't always see it that way. Yes, the FWL was the 800lb gorilla, and we could have smacked a lot of other nations around, no problem. But, there was always an 8,000lb gorilla to contend with. Why send whole Thera groups to invade Circinus or Astrocrazy? Not because we were callous, but because we needed every little edge agaisnt our enemy.
The Adders are in much the same boat. Yes, we're going to trample a few little worlds on our way to our new enclave, which seems pretty rough. We are after all the faction that didn't crush Kowloon like a bug just for RP reasons, we've just absorbed our second Clan and part of the Lyran nation; we're a giant! But when we look out, we see ourselves teatering on the edge. Our new protectorate is out flanked and out gunned, in desperate trouble, we're on the defensive in the HW, pressed on our bourders, always fighting to get our navy and army reesablished to where it was, constantly getting our McKennas killed. We face an enemy that can defend a world with 1000 FP, even while another force of nearly as much runs wild in our back yard. We watch our allies defect or morph into enemies, we're desperatly worried that other clans are going to steal our thunder, or just steal our worlds.
When we look in the merror, we see a faction that's in as rough shape against its enemies as a periphery nation looking at a great house. I don't know what I mean to say, entirely, by this. Its no excuse for poor sportsman ship, or for any other OOC actions. But I think there is sometimes a sense that its all roses. When I was the Mandrills looking at the Adders, I often felt that way. I just hope that if we can see the other player's persepectives, it will help us grow in understanding, and get a better sense of why things are as they are.
Success breeds jealousy, jealousy provokes aggression. Such is the way of the world.
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
Well I think Harlock about covered it.
He at no point made any mention of the Free Worlds League as such. He is less than complete. ;-)
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 25, 2010, 11:57:45 PM
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
Well I think Harlock about covered it.
He at no point made any mention of the Free Worlds League as such. He is less than complete. ;-)
If I mentioned the FWL in regards to the Lyran state, I would have to be less than cordial in my language. Since one could argue that they partially responsible for the fall of the Lyran state what with declaring a war on the Lyrans. But then again, that did lead to the fall of the FWL Parliament's regime. :) And I do like Guy Fawkes Day on occasion.
Or you could, I dunno, try not to insert IC feelings into an OOC dissertation. ;)
The Lyrans asked for it. They should've invited the Speaker to their parties.
Maybe when the FWL throws its victory bash on Tharkad, they'll show more consideration and invite the Lyrans. :)
They just might. ;D
Lyrans, not Skye sellouts who orbitally bombard Lyran worlds as FWL puppets. If anything, you'll be handing out party favors and trying not to make eye contact with anyone. ;)
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 26, 2010, 02:11:43 AM
Lyrans, not Skye sellouts who orbitally bombard Lyran worlds as FWL puppets. If anything, you'll be handing out party favors and trying not to make eye contact with anyone. ;)
Hey, they were in revolt.
Well Daniel Brewer took his stupid pills again..not my fault I have to blast him out. ;D Oh well the court-matial and nobles tribunal afterward will be fun to RP...( Note to self buiold more warships so I don't have to borrow the FWLN.) ;)
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 26, 2010, 02:13:48 AM
Hey, they were in revolt.
What a terrific slogan for Robert's I-wanna-be-the-Archon campaign posters. I can see it now: a flattering picture, backed by a mushroom cloud. ;)
Quote from: tassa_kay on July 26, 2010, 02:17:59 AM
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 26, 2010, 02:13:48 AM
Hey, they were in revolt.
What a terrific slogan for Robert's I-wanna-be-the-Archon campaign posters. I can see it now: a flattering picture, backed by a mushroom cloud. ;)
I know ain't it great! "Come back into the fold or die!" ;D On a serious note the repercussions of that officer's actions will not be good.
Quote from: Lord Harlock on July 26, 2010, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: chaosxtreme on July 25, 2010, 11:57:45 PM
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 24, 2010, 05:31:02 AM
Well I think Harlock about covered it.
He at no point made any mention of the Free Worlds League as such. He is less than complete. ;-)
If I mentioned the FWL in regards to the Lyran state, I would have to be less than cordial in my language. Since one could argue that they partially responsible for the fall of the Lyran state what with declaring a war on the Lyrans. But then again, that did lead to the fall of the FWL Parliament's regime. :) And I do like Guy Fawkes Day on occasion.
Your forgetting the part where we essentially won that war. ;-) Forcing the Lyrans to make a seperate peace thus alienating their Terran masters which proved so disasterous to their effort to curtail the Clans, forced Yvonne off the throne...though we left her dignity by not formally placing it in the treaty and forced the Lyrans to accept FWL peacekeepers wearing SLDF colors in name only.
At least...thats how the history books in the FWL will write it. ;-) We care not what lies the Lyrans tell THEIR children. ;D
On an unrelated note, good job "accidentally" using that Lyran Overlord for skeet-shooting practice.
I found that little "mishap" to be particularly delightful. Hesperus is shaping up to be really ugly, and that's fantastic. :)
I said it was going to bumpy. This is just act one.
nuka-nuka?
Things would have to really suck for nukes to start flying I would think.
Quote from: Dave Baughman on July 26, 2010, 03:14:59 AM
nuka-nuka?
It would not surprise me.
By the way Dave...
*stir, stir, stir*
Thats how I roll.
:-)
Messy...
Yeah, but messy can be fun. You know, like a food fight in the school cafe. ;D
A messy fight but the Lyrans with Lots of FWL support took Hesperus II. The 5th Lyran Gards "the Steadfast" lived up to thier name. Kudos to Dave for the awesome roleplay and battle sequence. Chaosextreme was great to play with as well. A far different scenario than arcturus but a tea party is good anytime. :)
Quote from: Deathrider6 on July 26, 2010, 06:20:18 AM
A messy fight but the Lyrans with Lots of FWL support took Hesperus II. The 5th Lyran Gards "the Steadfast" lived up to thier name. Kudos to Dave for the awesome roleplay and battle sequence. Chaosextreme was great to play with as well. A far different scenario than arcturus but a tea party is good anytime. :)
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 26, 2010, 02:13:48 AM
Hey, they were in revolt.
Hey, she was waring a short skirt... ::)
I will say though, Hesperus is really what the FWL should be doing. MARIK SMACH! And, super bonus points for the ship raining down all the fire to be named after our myrtered newspaper publisher, Corrine Marik! One of these days, I will have to come back to help out the Eagle (or Regulus or Oriente or Stewart or something).
Quote from: Iron Mongoose on July 26, 2010, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Cannonshop on July 26, 2010, 02:13:48 AM
Hey, they were in revolt.
Hey, she was waring a short skirt... ::)
I will say though, Hesperus is really what the FWL should be doing. MARIK SMACH! And, super bonus points for the ship raining down all the fire to be named after our myrtered newspaper publisher, Corrine Marik! One of these days, I will have to come back to help out the Eagle (or Regulus or Oriente or Stewart or something).
+1 for 1000th Reply. Time for a new thread I think.