[Combat Ops] Turn 9 - 1910 Dark Nebula

[Fatebringer]

I'm not the Head GM anymore for this game so DK's declaration is what we'll be going off of as he is the Head GM, and Dave is of course the Supreme Overlord and may overturn us all. As Dave said, what happens in the Trial system is completely to the players involved and despite the game's focus on rewarding attacking, the combat system is much less deadly then the old version. The new rules have a lower damage chart, limiting forces, and much better definition for Initiative. These rules allow for greater unit survival chances and longer combats focused on allowing all games to be playable.

For trials, if your intentions are to acquire the hex, you still need the Cassus Belli order to avoid the loss of Public Support and once a trial is agreed to, it should be listed in the orders post as "Trial (Invasion)". A trail that is just for resources or honor would best be listed as a "Trial (Raid)" or "Trial (Incursion)" if there are no tangible assets at stake in your trial such as a Trial of Grievance.

That being said, Tassa, don't feel taken advantage of, because I think Fate is suffering bleed thru from the FGC game where Trials generally ARE a single roll.

Aff, he is right. As there were no definitions for trials, I was giong with what is the most Clanlike. The purpose of a trial is to determine a victor at the lowest cost of resources. It was actually written into the old FGC rules that a Trial was one round of combat for that purpose, not to destroy your opposition or win at all costs. Unarmed combat trials are 7 rolls, but one round. I find the lack of this condition has led to many abuses and very unclanlike behavior. People who fall back on the rules for invasion instead of the Clan Trial system aren't playing for honor.

My issue with your argument was that you didn't mention how you thought a 1 round trial was unfair before you rolled.

This right here is exactly what I was trying to get at.  I came in on Invasion orders for a reason, after all.  And we did pay the cost (and succeeded in the project roll) to get the Manufactured Casus Belli to cover this situation.  We'd never have wasted the resources if we weren't going to be getting use out of this, and the situation as it was explained by Fate makes this project a total waste of time and money.

The difference between having the Casus Belli and not having the Casus Belli is Public Support. In the case of a Clan, this generally dictates giong before your Warrior Council and making the decision to support the course of action instead of going off on your own.

This makes sense to me, and I'd be happy to continue on because, as things stand now, it's 39 FP on the Falcons' side and 35 FP on the Horses' side, and I still have a LOT of additional forces to draw upon if I want to "call in bid-away forces".  Which, according to Clan law, I can most certainly do.  Is there a provision for that?

Also, Fate, I apologize for my harshness here.  These rules, even for simple resolution, are a LOT more complicated than the FGC, and it just felt like I was being screwed over by your interpretation of those rules, and neither of us being all that aware of how they're supposed to work.  It's damned frustrating, and this was my very first time out... and it hasn't encouraged me to want to do this again whatsoever.

So where do we go from here, boys?

Trial continues if you want it to, OP6 initiative is already determined. I personally feel that if a side feels they have to Call down additional forces in a Trial, it should cost a PS to denote the serious loss of Honor. The only rules for this exist are the standard combat, but this would definately follow the spirit of why Public Support is in the rules. Of course at any point you can throw honor to the wind and go to straight Invasion wich would put you at War with the Jade Falcons, at that point, no further Cassus Belli would be needed but you would get no further trials from the Falcons.

[Daemonknight]

As for bringing in forces that you previously bid away, since the whole Batchall process is entirely RP and not mechanics, you'd simply give a different unit(a different trinary in this case) the Battle orders. Or you could attack with the whole Cluster, assuming you win initiative. Thats upto you, the rules only govorn the size limits and the combat itself. Clan honor and whatnot is wholly RP.

In this case, you could fight another round with the same Trinary v Trinary and see how it goes. Or, you could RP calling in the rest of the Cluster...in which case, you can either try and crush him with the whole Cluster(only if you win operational initiative and declare the Battle order for the Cluster...since you auto-lose, the Falcons would declare Battle with a Trinary, restricting you to only Defend with a Trinary of your own...but it could be a different one now your whole Cluster is 'involved').



From a strictly rules standpoint, there is no 'bidding down'. Your whole Cluster is there, and its simply a case of which parts are activly fighting at a given time. Although in RP, the Cluster might be a ways off, or even dismounted, the rules don't take that into account: they're just there, and can be freely used, regardless of RP considerations.



where do we go from here? Either you keep playing now that we're a little clearer about the Trial process, or else you really can't stand the ruleset and relegate yourself to a purely RP presence...or you leave the game entirely, which i strongly hope you won't do. If theres questions about rules and whatnot, just shoot me a PM and i'll come up with a decision(with Dave able to freely overrule me as he made the rules himself). The only reason this one progressed so far was because i wasn't paying close enough attention, and I again apologize for that. I don't want people disliking the game because of misunderstandings or a lack of rules clarification. Last turn was the first really large-scale combat action, and luckily it was me vs Fate, so quite a few things were worked out. Theres obviously still grey areas, but hopefully they get brought to me soon enough to be defused before this happens again.

[tassa_kay]

I'm not the Head GM anymore for this game so DK's declaration is what we'll be going off of as he is the Head GM, and Dave is of course the Supreme Overlord and may overturn us all. As Dave said, what happens in the Trial system is completely to the players involved and despite the game's focus on rewarding attacking, the combat system is much less deadly then the old version. The new rules have a lower damage chart, limiting forces, and much better definition for Initiative. These rules allow for greater unit survival chances and longer combats focused on allowing all games to be playable.

You need to make *this* a little clearer next time, because I felt that after a point, I had no choice in what I was doing.  

For trials, if your intentions are to acquire the hex, you still need the Cassus Belli order to avoid the loss of Public Support and once a trial is agreed to, it should be listed in the orders post as "Trial (Invasion)". A trail that is just for resources or honor would best be listed as a "Trial (Raid)" or "Trial (Incursion)" if there are no tangible assets at stake in your trial such as a Trial of Grievance.

Makes sense.  I'll keep that in mind for the future.  Keep in mind, however, that I listed the Invasion orders in my very first post.

Aff, he is right. As there were no definitions for trials, I was giong with what is the most Clanlike. The purpose of a trial is to determine a victor at the lowest cost of resources. It was actually written into the old FGC rules that a Trial was one round of combat for that purpose, not to destroy your opposition or win at all costs. Unarmed combat trials are 7 rolls, but one round. I find the lack of this condition has led to many abuses and very unclanlike behavior. People who fall back on the rules for invasion instead of the Clan Trial system aren't playing for honor.

And yet, that rule isn't in the FGC when I've been a player.  So my point stands.

My issue with your argument was that you didn't mention how you thought a 1 round trial was unfair before you rolled.

Um, you didn't tell me that it would BE a one-round Trial before I rolled, either, so your issue is nonexistent to begin with.

The difference between having the Casus Belli and not having the Casus Belli is Public Support. In the case of a Clan, this generally dictates giong before your Warrior Council and making the decision to support the course of action instead of going off on your own.

Obviously.

Trial continues if you want it to, OP6 initiative is already determined. I personally feel that if a side feels they have to Call down additional forces in a Trial, it should cost a PS to denote the serious loss of Honor. The only rules for this exist are the standard combat, but this would definately follow the spirit of why Public Support is in the rules. Of course at any point you can throw honor to the wind and go to straight Invasion wich would put you at War with the Jade Falcons, at that point, no further Cassus Belli would be needed but you would get no further trials from the Falcons.

Eh, I'll just wait until next turn and slap them with another Trial, since apparently this game is all about dragging shit out.  Hex is already jointly-held, anyway, so it's not like I have to withdraw out of the theatre.

where do we go from here? Either you keep playing now that we're a little clearer about the Trial process, or else you really can't stand the ruleset and relegate yourself to a purely RP presence...or you leave the game entirely, which i strongly hope you won't do.

Um, I was talking about the THREAD, not about where I go as a player.  

[Daemonknight]

well how am I supposed to know that

You still have Op round 6, so you can try and press once more. upto u, but bear in mind since Falcons won initiative, they're going on Battle orders, and that restricts you to a Trinary v Trinary battle.

[tassa_kay]

Nah, we'll withdraw.  FOR NOW.  Parm can wrap this up and post the actual in-game orders to that effect when he gets the time.

[Fatebringer]

If you choose to accept OP5 the end of the Trial, you would still have the option to "Refuse" the trial results in OP6 due to the RP'd "Natural obstruction" I put in.

[tassa_kay]

If you choose to accept OP5 the end of the Trial, you would still have the option to "Refuse" the trial results in OP6 due to the RP'd "Natural obstruction" I put in.

I'm not understanding what you're saying here... could you elaborate for me?

[Fatebringer]

That's my bad, I had RP set up for here, but it appears to have been lost when the questions started. Essentially, I credited the Hell's Horse poor performance offensively to a delay of 1 star of their tracked units due to a Mudslide. You can essentially make up whatever reason you want for RP sake, so I came up with this one. Looking at the rolls, it certainly wasn't due to a stellar performance by the Solhama unit.

[tassa_kay]

Well, considering that this is a weird location to even HAVE a ground fight (technically, this is Camelot Command!), I don't think a freak mudslide is feasible, LOL.  But I'm sure I can chalk it up to something equally absurd, like perhaps internal squabbling in the unit between Mongols and Wardens.  Yeah, that'd work just dandy.

[Fatebringer]

OP 6

Surface: Elements of Omega Solhama Cluster - No Orders

[Parmenion]

Combat is concluded, as the Falcons have won the 'trial'.  System will remain as per the status quo from before.

[Fatebringer]

Please mark the following thread complete.