OOC Thread

[Daemonknight]

I see the map very clearly: i see the Lyrans have been taking something of a beating in the past few turns on coordinated Clan strikes, but i also see that the rest of the IS is quietly humming away preparing for when we eventually turn our attention their way. The FedSuns are pushing the Dark back from their Realm, the Combine is retaking the worlds the Spirits grabbed on their aborted invasion, and there is a constant give and take of worlds around Sudeten.

And your intel checks are dependant on both a roll, modifiers, and which level of the operation you choose to run...so if your IG is 4, but the RWR has a CI of 3, and you only run the base level of Operation Orders, of course you wont get much. However, your operations against the much lower Clan CIs will generally meet with more sucess, especially if you buy the higher bonus versions of those ops.

I think that the IS could totally overrun the Clans if they just got together and actually tried it.

[Cannonshop]

I see the map very clearly: i see the Lyrans have been taking something of a beating in the past few turns on coordinated Clan strikes, but i also see that the rest of the IS is quietly humming away preparing for when we eventually turn our attention their way. The FedSuns are pushing the Dark back from their Realm, the Combine is retaking the worlds the Spirits grabbed on their aborted invasion, and there is a constant give and take of worlds around Sudeten.

And your intel checks are dependant on both a roll, modifiers, and which level of the operation you choose to run...so if your IG is 4, but the RWR has a CI of 3, and you only run the base level of Operation Orders, of course you wont get much. However, your operations against the much lower Clan CIs will generally meet with more sucess, especially if you buy the higher bonus versions of those ops.

I think that the IS could totally overrun the Clans if they just got together and actually tried it.

They did try, and it failed.

[chaosxtreme]

Of course its also fair to say that right now all of us are inclined to support the states fighting the Clans.

The main thrust of the Clan attack is based upon two assumptions. They want the not-named dead, and the Combine and the LC are in the way.

The Spirit invasion may have been foiled but how many Combine attacks on Clan holdings do you see this turn? Or the turn before it? Or the turn before that?

It essentially robbed the LC of their quite frankly most active ally that was returning worlds retaken from the Clans to them. At least in the short term.

Terrans are holding onto the worlds themselves as "staging bases" Taurians were making theirs "independent"

As for the FWL we're just not all that interested in bleeding for the Elsyies without proper remuneration (their lack of help the last few times the TH invaded us means we're completely unconvinced about their promises of mutual defense). I am sure we could be persuaded. But no one's really asked about our asking price, and we haven't been offering it up.

The Capellan's have had problems of their own at Capella and with Quintus coming down with "Born a Liao" disease.

It is also fair to say the Inner Sphere hasn't had a concerted effort to beat the Clans by all Inner Sphere powers in quite sometime if ever. Simply put I can't think of one time all the houses were on board.

I mean what offensive against the Clans even including Butler contained the full strength of the Inner Sphere? Everyone might have gotten involved but I bet they were keeping the home borders WELL defended.

So in short I think its an unfair argument to make "Well if the IS just got together they could overrun the Clans". Its not IS vs Clans, because simply put the constituent state's of the IS are not a unified state, the Star League in its current incarnation functions more like a the UN. Something the FWL very much see's as an advantage. As stopping the Clans quite frankly is a open secret is NOT real high on our list of things to do. Being seen to do what is "required" as a member of the SL and no more of course is. I'm actually surprised  no one has done any Role Play about that yet.

As for the Periphery states? Other then the MoC the only non SL member by the way, when was the last time they sent serious forces against the Clans? Outworlds have defected to the Horses, Marians never despite being the TH's quislings, and the Taurians hit like one world? Hardly a major commitment. Heck of the state's non-engaged by the Clans I think I'm first or second for force commitment and I'm doing my best to honor my treaties to the letter rather then the spirit.

On the other end? I don't get the "Clans are in a bad spot" vibe. Or the "no balancing factor" vibe, This coalition of the Clan's can't hold. Not for long, not indefinitely and that is what has you worried.

Some Clans are profiting off the LC more than others. So sooner or later one clan or the other is going to tell Diana to go hang and the Clans will be at each others throats as they were designed to be.

When that happens well....the LC thing will even out and the Lyrans even without establishing alliances with anyone else become credible again (I.e. relying on the Combine and the FS), they can theoretically evict the invading clans one by one unless the Clans band together again. Which they won't initially.

The Clans have balancing factors, 50 RP per clan, and 50 Warships split up between you by trial + your toumans, and lets be honest are HAG's really that awesome?

Unless of course a Clan or two decide to make some more friends to the South. That could barefruit. I've heard some of that going on OOC but I dont give it much credence after all. If they were going to do that they would contact me. 3 wars with the Not-Named where the not-named used massive orbital bombardment. Its really a no brainer to contact the FWL.

[Daemonknight]

I know that eventually the coalition as it is will eventually end. Its already abundantly clear that the Blood Spirits have a bone to pick with Diana over her 'cowardice' as they call it, and the GC in general because of the changes to their society from the good old days of everything being settled in the CoE...which i personally enjoy the idea of, but its not really practical in the situation we're in right now.

Wil Diana lose her position? Of course she will, i have a feeling that in the next 4-5 turns, there will be a significant challenge to her position, not like Schmitt's ToG, which doesnt actually accomplish anything except for Schmitt trying to prove that shes a better warrior than Diana, and that it satisfies her honor. But a ToG doesnt actually remove Diana from her position...but i know it will come from somewhere. Blood Spirits are most likly at the top of the list. Vipers not far behind, although Zalman agrees with the intentions if not the execution of Diana's plans. But i feel that i am doing a solid job of playing a freeborn warrior who became ilKhan: she isn't as hung up on her personal honor, because its obvious to her that she will never do enough to earn the total respect that any trueborn would recieve in her position.

Will the coalition fail? Yes and No. Diana will eventually no longer be ilKhan, and will either be dead, or revert to being a high-ranking officer of the Jade Falcons. However, the 'coalition' isn't based on Diana's personality. The Clans fighting together in the IS will most likly still be doing so even after Diana is killed(battle or a Trial), or removed for some reason. Their cooperation is based on their respective Clans, Diana simply is a figurehead that is trying her best to keep the infighting to an absolute minimum. And even though some hate Diana, they dont automaticlly hate the Jade Falcons(infact, the events on Foster concerning saKhan Pryde earned him the respect of the Blood Spirits, or atleast one of their Galaxy Commanders). So no, i am not really all that worried about the 'coalition' failing, and the Clans reverting to their pre-invasion self destruction.

When i say that the Clans are in a bad spot, you touched on it yourself: there has never been a true, 100% group effort by the IS Houses to try and push the Clans from the IS. It hasn't happened, but if it did, just look at the maps: theres no way the Clans could contest against factions with such a larger economic and industrial base to work with. And the Clans would have a much harder time disrupting that because of its vastness and dispersion: the Clans by contrast, have a much smaller IS collective realm, meaning it would be easier to disrupt their ability to deploy forces to the IS. If theres no more Clan MFs in the IS for example, then that means everything has to be built back in the Homeworlds, and it takes massive MPs to move anything down to the IS. They could do it, but it would be starting over, except this time the IS would be ready and waiting.

I dont think the Clans need to be given some like, zomgbbq boosted anything. Infact, i dont even know what i would propose, because i obviously dont have all the statistics. But if the IS ever had a real, honest to goodness combined effort, not like "oh, sure, i'll send 5 regiments", a REAL, "lets go kick those test tube babies outa here!" effort: the Clans would be overrun. Thats the way its supposed to be. But the Clans are also supposed to have superior warriors, and superior tech...which the rules dont really take into account.

So, it takes the Clans 2FP to create an assault mech unit, a binary, 10 battlemechs = 2FP. The IS needs only to spend 1.5RP, making 12 assault battlemechs, a company, at 1.5 FP for IS2 tech(the average tech level of IS units i would surmise). But if they made a Clan-tech company of 12 assault mechs, it would be the same 2RP to 2FP build.

I would think that the Clans would be more efficent at building their own technology than the IS. As a random idea, maybe the Clans would get a small discount, representing their more advanced technology in manufacturing, and also they've got the experiance in building the mechs. Not to mention the whole salvaging aspect of their society, which means that almost any battlemech created probably has some of its parts salvaged from a destroyed mech: power conduits in the arm, engine shielding from that Mad Cat, maybe the CASE out of an Atlas...

I'm just saying, something to allow the Clans to try and balance their severely outnumbered forces, with the ability to spread their RP out a bit more: salvaging materials, no red tape to cut through, generations of experiance with technology that the IS factories and techs have only been working on for the past decade or so. I'm not saying its breaking the game in any way. Just stating an opinion.

[chaosxtreme]

I know that eventually the coalition as it is will eventually end. Its already abundantly clear that the Blood Spirits have a bone to pick with Diana over her 'cowardice' as they call it, and the GC in general because of the changes to their society from the good old days of everything being settled in the CoE...which i personally enjoy the idea of, but its not really practical in the situation we're in right now.

Wil Diana lose her position? Of course she will, i have a feeling that in the next 4-5 turns, there will be a significant challenge to her position, not like Schmitt's ToG, which doesnt actually accomplish anything except for Schmitt trying to prove that shes a better warrior than Diana, and that it satisfies her honor. But a ToG doesnt actually remove Diana from her position...but i know it will come from somewhere. Blood Spirits are most likly at the top of the list. Vipers not far behind, although Zalman agrees with the intentions if not the execution of Diana's plans. But i feel that i am doing a solid job of playing a freeborn warrior who became ilKhan: she isn't as hung up on her personal honor, because its obvious to her that she will never do enough to earn the total respect that any trueborn would recieve in her position.

Will the coalition fail? Yes and No. Diana will eventually no longer be ilKhan, and will either be dead, or revert to being a high-ranking officer of the Jade Falcons. However, the 'coalition' isn't based on Diana's personality. The Clans fighting together in the IS will most likly still be doing so even after Diana is killed(battle or a Trial), or removed for some reason. Their cooperation is based on their respective Clans, Diana simply is a figurehead that is trying her best to keep the infighting to an absolute minimum. And even though some hate Diana, they dont automaticlly hate the Jade Falcons(infact, the events on Foster concerning saKhan Pryde earned him the respect of the Blood Spirits, or atleast one of their Galaxy Commanders). So no, i am not really all that worried about the 'coalition' failing, and the Clans reverting to their pre-invasion self destruction.

When i say that the Clans are in a bad spot, you touched on it yourself: there has never been a true, 100% group effort by the IS Houses to try and push the Clans from the IS. It hasn't happened, but if it did, just look at the maps: theres no way the Clans could contest against factions with such a larger economic and industrial base to work with. And the Clans would have a much harder time disrupting that because of its vastness and dispersion: the Clans by contrast, have a much smaller IS collective realm, meaning it would be easier to disrupt their ability to deploy forces to the IS. If theres no more Clan MFs in the IS for example, then that means everything has to be built back in the Homeworlds, and it takes massive MPs to move anything down to the IS. They could do it, but it would be starting over, except this time the IS would be ready and waiting.

I dont think the Clans need to be given some like, zomgbbq boosted anything. Infact, i dont even know what i would propose, because i obviously dont have all the statistics. But if the IS ever had a real, honest to goodness combined effort, not like "oh, sure, i'll send 5 regiments", a REAL, "lets go kick those test tube babies outa here!" effort: the Clans would be overrun. Thats the way its supposed to be. But the Clans are also supposed to have superior warriors, and superior tech...which the rules dont really take into account.

So, it takes the Clans 2FP to create an assault mech unit, a binary, 10 battlemechs = 2FP. The IS needs only to spend 1.5RP, making 12 assault battlemechs, a company, at 1.5 FP for IS2 tech(the average tech level of IS units i would surmise). But if they made a Clan-tech company of 12 assault mechs, it would be the same 2RP to 2FP build.

I would think that the Clans would be more efficent at building their own technology than the IS. As a random idea, maybe the Clans would get a small discount, representing their more advanced technology in manufacturing, and also they've got the experiance in building the mechs. Not to mention the whole salvaging aspect of their society, which means that almost any battlemech created probably has some of its parts salvaged from a destroyed mech: power conduits in the arm, engine shielding from that Mad Cat, maybe the CASE out of an Atlas...

I'm just saying, something to allow the Clans to try and balance their severely outnumbered forces, with the ability to spread their RP out a bit more: salvaging materials, no red tape to cut through, generations of experiance with technology that the IS factories and techs have only been working on for the past decade or so. I'm not saying its breaking the game in any way. Just stating an opinion.

Well a Clantech ER PPC to the head is a fairly final way to end someone's IlKhanship.

You are right about a lot of things. Though I disagree with others. The Clans don't need to be buffed to protect against some fabled "IS standing together against us" scenario. Anymore then individual IS states "Need to be buffed to prevent the Clans from running over us since they are fighting together" scenario. One such scenario is actually real right now (the IS state getting attacked by all the Clans).

Now would a return to status quo prevent clans from cooperating? No. Would it modify the strategic situation? Yes. Too many clans have left the HW's under garrisoned. Why? Because if attacked they know they can get other clans to "contract" their HW forces to aid in retaking the lost sectors as it "violates" the ilkhans ruling. While lessened these forces are more than enough to protect against a IS long range strike due to multiple clans would meet such an attack if not on the first turn upon it reaching the HW's then on the 2nd turn.

Under the latest set of edicts all the Clans have to protect against is the Scientist conspirators essentially bandit caste and a long range hail mary strike from the IS. This is not normal for the Clans.

The Coalition will eventually start infighting as the strongest Clan's start setting themselves up to be the new IlClan for taking Terra. As someone has to take Terra to end the not-named threat from a Clan point of view. The question is what happens when that does happen? Do the Clans actually fight for the right to take Terra? Or are all the other Clans going to genuflect to the Adders, Falcons or Bears? Nope. There is gonna be a fight.

Before or after Terra it doesn't really matter. This coalition if it IS successful will eventually be dust long term wise. If it were a permanent thing. Or a threat to the FWL we would have to take it far more seriously rather then looking upon it as fortune for weakening the Lyrans.

[Iron Mongoose]

We can talk about what we think will take place politicaly all we want, and that's fine and well, but let's speak to the point about balance.

I don't think political ballance is important or desired.  Some factions are larger, some are smaller.  Would we say that the periphery is poorly ballanced against the IS, or the Clans?  We could, since it is true that the periphery nations as a group have much less of every mesurable thing than either the Clans as a group or the IS as a group.  But we wouldn't.  Part of that is because by and large, the periphery does not enjoy the same sort of adversarial relationship with the IS (or for that matter the Clans) but part of it is because we know full well that it shouldn't be.  The periphery should be weeker.  Much weeker.  And yet when the colective power of all the nations combined started to aproach the power of one IS house, look at how we hemed and hawed (though the rule that led to that was badly broken, and I stand by that statment). 

So why do we expect that there should be some sort of parity between the Clans and IS?  There isn't in canon.  There never has been, and most likely there never will be.  This game has also never featured it.  Does it throw one side or the other a bone every now and then to help, sure, but mostly to make up for some other harm that was done.  Yes the Clans got 80 warships, but ten of them also got sidelined for a year, and could have made 100 in that time, or done other things (or fought amoungs themselves and killed one another off, but we'll never know).  Both sides (if we are to speak of sides, which is often problematic) gain and lose from random events.

Should manufacturing be at an equal level?  Why not?  The fact is that for all we track things, FP and RP and MP are all pretty abstract.  Why should a company of Awesomes (very powerful yet very cheap) be equal to a company of Chargers (very poor yet very expensive)?  Why would Executioners and Kingfishers cost the same?  Is a Dire Wolf really worth two Mist Lynxes?  Is a Gargoyle really worth two Cougers?  And that's just mechs within the same tech base!  The examples are innumerable.

I think the idea is that at the end of the day, you pay for performance, and FP is the mesure of that performance.  We don't offer good buys or bad buys, or else we'd have some power gamers start to over power thouse who want to role play honestly.  Imagine if assualts were better value than lights (or vice versa).  How would a Hellion or Combine (or Bear/Lyran)player manage that? 

Can we see a few problems?  Perhaps.  Yes, the Clans only get ten mechs, but they get more skilled pilots, which makes the BVs come out very close.  I think its pretty even.  Is it perportionaly harder to transport Clan mechs, given that less make up each FP?  It is, but in a world where a regement of PBIs is easier to move than a lance of locusts, we don't look for sense; one might imagine that Clan prima donnas need more logistical support for their fancy omni mechs, if one needs a real reason.

Is salvage an issue? Perhaps.  I think part of is that our damage tables are so high and retreat is so hard that forces are almost always wiped out, offering a lot of potental salvage for the victor.  Too often, I think salvage is too generious, as victorious forces can come away with no damage, despite having distroyed many regements of the enemy.  But, as I say, I think we should just tone down damage tables (formerly, the rational was that making it painful is an excuse to encourage MM, and a way to save the GMs time in doing the rolls at month's end, but now that we do our own rolls and MM is slowly going the way of the dinosaur, we could probably do it) and make it easier to retreat (as I mentioned recently, we've still technicly got retreat rules on the books, and in both canon and real life forces almost never fight to annihlation, yet that is the norm for this game) rather than change salvage rules, at least to start.

If want to show that a faction can make more or fewer mechs, then chaning their RP and number of MFs is the way of that.  If we think that the Falcons and Lyrans can make an equal number of assualt mechs, for example (and I don't think we do) then we'd still need to give the Falcons more MFs and more RPs, because in producing the same number of mechs, they'd get more combat power, meaning more FP.  Would it be fair just to give it to them at the same price because we think they need help?  I would say no. 

[GraeGor]

And, the make up sex was good.

LMAO


I think that is the first time Ive ever read that in a Clan IC thread

[Marlin]

I assume that Filtvelt as well as Tharkad are prone to a Terror check? (I would say both worlds got hit at a civilian facility, no? Tharkad in any case)

And if I see it right, nice one for the Spirits as there is no Terror at all?

[Fatebringer]

Flitvelt has already had a Terror Check and it lasts 3 turns. On the plus side, I have a Battalion + For each point the dark has on planet.

[Marlin]

Alrighty. Good luck hunting them down.

[JediBear]

I'm looking at the Combined Map for turn 40 and even at 400% zoom, it's mostly too small to read. Anyone else having this problem, or do I just need to find a better reader?

[Daemonknight]

What are you using? The maps are in .pdf format, you should be able to use the free Adobe Reader software. Thats what i use, and it works perfectly: zoom into 6-800 depending on what i'm exactly looking at, and i can read it fine. Scales perfectly, no pixelation or anything obviously...what're u using that wont go above 400%?

[LittleH13]

The free Adobe reader is what you should be using. It works fine with that.

I'm looking at the Combined Map for turn 40 and even at 400% zoom, it's mostly too small to read. Anyone else having this problem, or do I just need to find a better reader?

[JediBear]

What are you using? The maps are in .pdf format, you should be able to use the free Adobe Reader software.

Eh, but then I'd have to install it, which is a bit more of a bother on a Linux box. 

My windows box went down a while ago, and I've been making do with the linux box I built for doing coursework at the university.

I'm not quite as enthusiastic as Linux users are supposed to be, so I mostly tend not to install new stuff on it, especially since installing anything on Linux can be a right pain in the arse.

Thats what i use, and it works perfectly: zoom into 6-800 depending on what i'm exactly looking at, and i can read it fine. Scales perfectly, no pixelation or anything obviously...what're u using that wont go above 400%?

Gnome Evince. Seems to be one of its current limitations.

[Daemonknight]

Microsoft may very well be the evil empire, with the Death Star that is the Windows OS, however, unless you REALLY have a reason to hate Microsoft(which most people dont, they just think that Linux users get extra geek/nerd credit...rarely does it happen), or unless you REALLY love Linux/Unix, Windows is just so much more accesible.

If installing programs is a PitA, then whats the point of the system, you know? I have issues with Windows, sure...but i can use it alot easier than learning all the command lines for Linux. I dont even remember them all for DOS...ah, my childhood. Trying to remember C:\Programs\Games\Blizzard\Warcraft\Warcraft.exe