OOC Thread

[Fatebringer]

I don't recall the Smoke Jaguars actually asking for anyone's help.

[tassa_kay]

I don't recall the Smoke Jaguars actually asking for anyone's help.

They did.  Lincoln did, specifically.

[Dave Baughman]

While it would be nice if the Clans policed up after their own, I can understand why its not going to happen here.

My main problem with the Dark is that they don't make sense. They aren't actually bandits or Jaguar holdouts. Instead, they're some kind of death cult following a poorly written villain with no redeeming features. As far as tropes go, this one isn't working for me. In the DA timeline, Moon has plenty of time to think about Trent and the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars. In this timeline, someone gave him a bunch of fanatical troops, put him on the opposite side of the Sphere from the Clans and turned him loose on innocent planetary populations, which he is murdering out of some vague notion of revenge.

But as you say, they're not really Clanners.  He was only raised, equipped, and disciplined by the Clans, so the Inner Sphere can't really blame Clan society for producing him now that he has gone over to the dark side. Mind you, if the Smoke Jaguars had been defeated by another Clan, they would have been quietly Absorbed, but because it was the Star League that beat them, the remainder have become remorseless killing machines, taking the actions that caused the Inner Sphere to target the Jaguars to a new extreme.



If the Smoke Jaguars represent the pinnacle of what Clan society is capable of producing and the rest of the Clans are incapable of dealing with them when they go wrong, then what exactly is the value of Clan society?

Well, I'm not going to get into the debate about whether or not the Dark are representative of the canonical ex-Jags. The Dark have been in the game long before I was a GM (and in fact, long before Paul Moon's ultimate change of heart was revealed), and like a lot of things in FC '62 they just don't correspond with how things turned out in Canon.

Having said that, in the quote above there's a very astute in-game observation I'm surprised more people haven't questioned. I'll just leave it at that 

[JediBear]

If the Smoke Jaguars represent the pinnacle of what Clan society is capable of producing and the rest of the Clans are incapable of dealing with them when they go wrong, then what exactly is the value of Clan society?

Your Star League Defense Force assured us that there were no remnants of the Smoke Jaguars, so what good is it?

Seriously, I'm not even sure the Clans as a whole are aware of the Dark. We're certainly not in any position to take the fight to them at this time, even if getting the Khans to agree to anything weren't like herding saber-toothed cats and the Blood weren't aiming the full might of the TH at us.

[chaosxtreme]

Wait Moon is in the Dark Age timeline?

Which book was this? and when did I miss it?

[tassa_kay]

"Surrender Your Dreams", as the leader of the Fidelis.  The Fidelis' founders were a group of ex-Jags led by Paul Moon who swore their services to Devlin Stone in return for safety, and operated as his personal black ops group in the Republic era.  Paul Moon was still around, but the Fidelis' ranks are ex-Jaguar descendants, not the originals.

[GI Journalist]

Running a Periphery power, I'd just as soon the Clans ignore me, but I still wanted to discuss what's going on in FC '62. This timeline could be a good second chance for the Clans, but I'm wondering whether they deserve it.

Clan Smoke Jaguar spearheaded the Clan Invasion, proving themselves in combat and earning one of the four original invasion corridors. They were considered to be some of the best warriors that the Clans had to offer. They followed the strictures established for Clan warfare very closely, and they were very, very good at it. They were a flawless product of the very pinnacle of Clan society before it was corrupted by the realities of combat with the Inner Sphere, but neither their years of trial by combat nor their selective breeding program stopped them from going horriblly wrong. They were completely incapable of dealing with the kind of warfare offered by the Inner Sphere. Outside of the controlled combat environment of the Clans, the Smoke Jaguars became monsters.

They are perfectly representative of what the Clan warrior society produces.

Using the Smoke Jaguars as an example, how do the other Clans measure up at this time? For example, how many are using orbital bombardments or nuclear weapons? How many are ignoring traditional trials, rules of engagement, or bidding procedures?

And how many are offering up the same kind of excuses as the Jaguars did?

If the end result of a Clan like Smoke Jaguar is a band of genocidal rejects, what hope is there for the rest of Clan society?

Ultimately, Clan players will have to ask what kind of standard they intend to hold both themselves and their fellow Clans.

[Iron Mongoose]

I think a sense of hipocracy lies at the very heart of what it means to be Clan, so a true, blue Clanner need never qustion the incongruities that we are faced with, and need mearly soldier on and do what needs to be done.  But perhaps that's just me.

[tassa_kay]

But you're coming from a false premise, that premise being that the Jaguars were the pinnacle of what Clan society had to offer, even BEFORE the invasion.  You seem to be saying that the Jaguars were corrupted by the Inner Sphere and the reality of fighting in the invasion, but that's not exactly true.  

The Jaguars were brutal, cruel, and bloodthirsty well before the invasion.  They were excessively harsh to their own lower castes, to an extreme that even the Falcons and Coyotes would balk, and they had NO friends among the Clans, because they couldn't dial down their thirst for combat enough to actually make any.

Yes, the Jaguars followed Clan law and procedure very closely, but that doesn't really mean much when you consider their character, which has been from their inception the character of the bloodthirsty conqueror.  They simply indulged in it more during the invasion, when they realized that sticking to Clan law and procedure was hamstringing them.   The invasion simply brought out that which was ALWAYS lurking within their hearts.

So you'll have to forgive me if I take exception to you using the Smoke Jaguars, of ALL Clans, as a measuring stick against the rest of the Clans, because it's just not a defensible argument.

[Marlin]

No real Clan uses Nukes. Esp. not against a planet.

In space it might change soon as the IS starts popping them out like candy.

And no Clan should forego Trial and Stuff against another. Means, all the Clans that used Invasion against a real Clan (following my definition ) are on the edge of losing Clan status.

I have spoken.

[NVA]

SJs were the pinnacle of the ultimate warrior.  But, that was ALL they could do.  That was their weakness.  They could not manage.  They could not lead.  They could only fight ferociously.

[Marlin]

Agree with NVA.

[JediBear]

Yes, that's essentially correct.

Ultimately there's more to being Clan than just fighting, and the parts the Jaguars didn't get are the reason they're no longer with us.

[NVA]

Hey silentwarrior...Quit killing off my warriors...LOL

Wow...Bad roll

[LittleH13]

Rather than musing in the OOC with these lengthy posts maybe you should bring this stuff up IC. Kind of novel idea, don't you think?   

Running a Periphery power, I'd just as soon the Clans ignore me, but I still wanted to discuss what's going on in FC '62. This timeline could be a good second chance for the Clans, but I'm wondering whether they deserve it.

Clan Smoke Jaguar spearheaded the Clan Invasion, proving themselves in combat and earning one of the four original invasion corridors. They were considered to be some of the best warriors that the Clans had to offer. They followed the strictures established for Clan warfare very closely, and they were very, very good at it. They were a flawless product of the very pinnacle of Clan society before it was corrupted by the realities of combat with the Inner Sphere, but neither their years of trial by combat nor their selective breeding program stopped them from going horriblly wrong. They were completely incapable of dealing with the kind of warfare offered by the Inner Sphere. Outside of the controlled combat environment of the Clans, the Smoke Jaguars became monsters.

They are perfectly representative of what the Clan warrior society produces.

Using the Smoke Jaguars as an example, how do the other Clans measure up at this time? For example, how many are using orbital bombardments or nuclear weapons? How many are ignoring traditional trials, rules of engagement, or bidding procedures?

And how many are offering up the same kind of excuses as the Jaguars did?

If the end result of a Clan like Smoke Jaguar is a band of genocidal rejects, what hope is there for the rest of Clan society?

Ultimately, Clan players will have to ask what kind of standard they intend to hold both themselves and their fellow Clans.