OOC Thread

[Daemonknight]

Just trying to explain why it might seem the way it does. I wasn't trying to be hostile.

[LittleH13]

Not pointing any fingers here. Just trying to stop any bad blood from begining to boil.

[JediBear]

CS, I'm with Daemonknight, with a small caveat. Not only am I not sure you know what you're talking about. I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.

If you have any specific critiques of how I'm managing my Clan, my Khans, or the GL, I'd be glad to hear them in PM.

Understand, we are going after the Wolves. And we're not doing it because it's easy but because this is, as you said, a war of ideals. We now have yet another clear ideological enemy in our homeworlds. That is something we have to do something about. I'm in an especially sticky spot because I'm apparently deeply entangled with said enemy. I still haven't figured out quite how I'm going to deal with it.

And I don't know about doom-stacks. I'll bring enough force to do the job. As to Zellbrigen, though, the Ghost Bears haven't been big on that in canon since early in the Invasion.

[NVA]

1  - WiE and RD have essentially been on the same side for a LONG time.  Not the Terran or GC side, but somewhere in the middle.

2 - Just as a few have suggested that Cannon is way off base because he doesn't know, so too are the beliefs of what happened on Tamar.  Both sides wanted this trial.  the victor would lead the unified Wolf.  How much more clan than that can you get?

[Daemonknight]

NVA, what you guys did is about as far from Clan as you can get. You didn't conduct a Trial! You can't just head into combat, set some sort of outcome, and call it a Trial, thats not how it works. The Trial system is rigid: it only works in so many ways, and the way you used it isn't even remotely one of them. The closest thing you could do to what you've attempted, would be to Refuse the original Abjuration of the Exiles...but that wouldn't re-combine the Wolves, and most certinly wouldn't give the Exiles control over them!

I've gone over this, you just don't want to agree with me. What you did, wasn't Clan. It was "we have a unique situation, so we're going to have ourselves a private fight(once our friends the Terrans are overhead to protect us of course), and then slap a 'Trial' label on the fight to try and give it some legitimacy". And the only reason it's allowed is because Dave and Josh don't like to restrict RP, and give everyone a massivly wide berth: if they held everyone to within the realm of cannon possibility, what you did would never even have been allowed to be considered, let alone actually discussed. But it happened, and apparently the only way that the GC can right the glaring wrong you've committed in their eyes, is to Refuse the Trial...and if you decide that you're above the Grand Council(also unClanlike), then they'll have no choice but to get rid of you...preferably through Absorbtion, so that your warriors are put to the use they should've been this whole time, instead of consorting with the Not-Named...something else thats not in keeping with Clan-like behavior: consorting with an enemy of the Clans(those Abjurred from the Grand Council).

So to answer your question: you can get ALOT more Clan.

[GreyJaeger]

 Oh...I don't know...How about actually following Clan Law? Whether or not you agree with the Grand Council, that trial (lower case t intended) violated the letter of Clan Law. Hell, it could be argued that it was a violation of the spirit of Clan Law as well.  But you are going to do what you are going to do, so any further talk on it is folly.

[chaosxtreme]

At the risk of inflaming some players against me, I'm going to say it...

It's easier to go after the Wolves, or the (Fragmented) Lyrans, or the UIW, than it is to go after the Terrans/Blood/Not-Named.  Easier.  Just like it is easier to go after someone else's homeworld holdings, than to come to the Inner Sphere, make the Hostile Transit rolls, and go after the Not Named directly, or to cut "Hunting" orders to go after their forces in the field, or to cut Intel orders to locate their forces...

Easier. Because while the in-character mission might be to finish the Annihilation, the OOC mission, is to rack up big occupation zones as cheaply as possible, while avoiding a repeat of the visit by Apollyon and his horror-movie butcher crew upon the Falcons a few turns ago.

(yeah, I read the Clan sections, including the IC stuff...)

Only, so far, ONE clan (Star Adder) is doing this as an in-character "Plan" (they were doing it BEFORE news of the Not-Named was broken), notably, they've treated against forces when I ran them, with actual Clan behaviours-including offering the chance of Honourable battle, and Hegira when orders from the IlKhan made it necessary to break their bid.

Likewise with the "New guy" in the Jade Falcons (Daemonknight), who displayed the strict honour the Falcons had in Canon, when he honoured the request by the Baker 3 Task force's interim commander to withdraw honourably when circumstances dictated that they abort their invasion of that world.

Crusaders acting like...Crusaders, instead of...what I saw in the Grand Council threads as a reader, is rare, I wish it had some tangible reward in-game, because honestly what I see from most of the Grand Council members/players is more suited to the Inner Sphere than the Clans.

I have no doubt that this turn, when the orders are cut, the Wolves are going to face OMGWTFPOWNED doomstacks with neither Zellbriggen, nor quarter offered or accepted...because what's easier, is to go after the Wolves, than the Terrans. (just as it's easier to go after everyone else, than the Terrans.)

What has been conspicuous, in fact, is the active avoidance of Terran/Not Named forces, not the pursuit of them.  THIS will continue, because the Players are reluctant to risk their forces knowing full well that their Clan Brothers will stab them in the back...and do so with glee and self-congratulation.

only the Adders, so far, have shown any strategy to what they're doing, and that strategy has more to do with pre-revelation policies, and has netted them serious benefits (Doubling your OZ without firing a shot is a serious net benefit, obtaining direct access to Inner Sphere data and communications that are current to help your Watch find their targets? serious benefit.  Gaining proximity to Terra that allows something more than a one-shot raid? serious benefit.  They're the only Crusader Clan in striking range, and they don't have to fight through half the LC to get there-they've gotten it without firing a shot, which means they've got more force to apply to the root of the problem before the TH can pull its fleets from the front to defend their Homeland...)

Notably, their strategies have NOT been Orbombing cities, using Nukes, or slaughtering civilians-they show an awareness of public relations that is, at times, almost scarily effective, and they think their moves out in ways that focus for best results rather than just lashing out at anyone that offends them, could offend them, or might offend them.  Had they acted in the butcher's manner as previous Falcon players (who aren't playing Falcons anymore since the faction's been so devastated) did, likely the map for Turn 41 would have more Rimjob Red, FWL Purple, or Skye Green...or even Arc Royal blue, instead of a Clan Collaborator mini-state running from Alarion to Coventry and containing much of the LC's remaining industrial base.  Graegor and Dis have shown not only the personality characteristics, but fleshed out the Canon reference to Clanners being "Strategic Geniuses" (Invading Clans sourcebook, Warriors of Kerensky...)  Their strategy has WORKED, and they may well have Terra checkmated all on their own while the bulk of the other Clans are still backbiting or recovering from prior, less effective management.

Daemonknight's picked up my admiration-he didn't have to do what he did in the aftermath of Baker 3, he acted not only honorably in the tradition of a Crusader, but with practicality of someone who's got enough strategic awareness to 'get' why Hegira exists in the first place, he conserved his forces for the REAL enemy to come, instead of wasting them on vanity.  Very Falcon, in my opinion.


NOw, as for myself, I've probably just written my own faction's epitaph, likely a 'coming attraction', this turn or next.  But all the above, is why I don't play Clan in the FGC-by temperament, I'm a Crusader player, but I'm not the sort of player I have just blasted with this rant-The Grand Crusade is a war of Ideals, Dogmas, and Beliefs, while I don't share those beliefs in real life, I understand how Zealots work, and they aren't all unthinkingly vicious, treacherous, or out for number one.  Were I playing a Clan, I'd be ass-deep in challenges by the second turn.

Hey, The Blood Spirits and a few others (Cough Steel Vipers) do act like real clans.

We render real trials, and we abide by the results on the field of honor.

Besides I fully understand the RD wanting to get the fight against the Wolves in the Inner Sphere. After all there are several factories in the RD as guest facilities.

As for the Adders they have become the victims of their own success. Their new territory is heavily interdicted this effects their overall RP generation for ALL their holdings including the Homeworlds, until they can fix it (Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).

[LittleH13]

Some of you have asked Dave why the thread tree is not showing on the bottom and only showing on the top. I have found the setting and this is how you do it:

1) Go into Profile.
2) Go into Look and Layout
3) Choose the following setting as on:  "Show child boards on every page inside boards, not just the first."
4) Click Change Profile

Now you will have the thread tree on the top and bottom.

PS- Unfortunately this is not for each thread just for all sub forums. 

[JediBear]

1  - WiE and RD have essentially been on the same side for a LONG time.  Not the Terran or GC side, but somewhere in the middle.

That middle, of course, is simply cynical survivalism, an attempt to minimise conflict while grabbing as much as we can -- building power for its own sake and not to any specific purpose. Deny it if you like, but that's how the RD's been managed as far back as I have information. It has recently become policy in the RD to exclude the middle. The Terrans must be destroyed and the Grand Council preserved. Anything that strikes against the second (such as your ToW) also strikes against the first.

IC what that amounts to is Ghost Bear warriors finally having enough of getting less and less like themselves and Rasalhague citizens finally coming to a realisation of how their moral responsiblity differs from what it was now that they are a superpower. It's a kind of cultural epiphany, one the present Khan has ridden into office.

It's not that I'm not still willing to work with you or keep you out of the war -- I'm trying to work similar deals with at least two Successor States and considering trying to negotiate it between the Grand Council and the Star League -- but I can't actually tolerate what you did on Tamar. There are going to be repercussions.

Speaking of which, how's that briefing I asked for coming along?

2 - Just as a few have suggested that Cannon is way off base because he doesn't know, so too are the beliefs of what happened on Tamar.  Both sides wanted this trial.  the victor would lead the unified Wolf.  How much more clan than that can you get?

Something that actually embraced Clan Law in its construction and did not constitute treason in its outcome would be a great start.

[LittleH13]

I have done a bunch of SimRes. Could you all please check your threads and then mark them as *Complete*.

[NVA]

2 parts of a whole followed different paths for a time.  They realized neither could stand on its own.  The warrior councils of both halves decided they were strong enough to risk the trial.  Both knew losing would validate the others path, which is what the challenge was.  You said it, only one Khan.  So, the losing Khan steps down.  The warrior council of the loser follows the winners path.  Might has proven the path to follow.  Done without the total warfare the clans have been fighting with lately.  It is an internal Wolf matter, beyond the perview of the Grand Council normally.  To justify the Falcon abjurement means the clans accept their defacto absorbtion.  Only way that one works in the GC.  Meaning, a clan can absorb another without approval of the gc.  It isn't black and white.  I see your arguments.  The warriors of the Tamar Wolves took a risk and lost in honorable combat.  Most will follow the outcome of the trial.

PS - It is a fact that the TH did not arrive until the trial was completed.

[august]

I just want to make sure that I have this correctly - according to the Steiner Housebooks old and new, nobles with a title higher than Baron are not permitted to sit on the Estates General; this bars Landsgräfin Sharon Mulcahy from being a member of the body directly, yes? She might be the driving force behind the Arc Royal Estates General and many of the replacement delegates were "legally appointed" on toady credentials, but she's not the speaker. I'll have to figure out a name for the Speaker of the Assembly later, if I'm right on this. A Landsgräf is more or less a count, yes?

[DisGruntled]

(Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).

It is a separate state, though with an Adder leading it, we'll be working together to some extent as expected.

We were as surprised as the rest when the map came out.  I had to scrap plans to have another go at Coventry in a few cycles.  We still have no idea how many forces declared for Charlie, so who knows, some of those units might end up there as a garrison anyways.  

[Daemonknight]

NVA, how can you make an argument like "its an internal Wolf matter" when you are changing the allegiance of an entire Clan? That makes no sense. Its not an internal matter. You might like to view it that way personally, but its not an internal matter, not at all.

[GraeGor]

(Unless Adder LC is being run as a seperate state which it might).

It is a separate state, though with an Adder leading it, we'll be working together to some extent as expected.

We were as surprised as the rest when the map came out.  I had to scrap plans to have another go at Coventry in a few cycles.  We still have no idea how many forces declared for Charlie, so who knows, some of those units might end up there as a garrison anyways.  

more or less what Dis said

I'm going to be using it as a learning experience for myself when it comes to writing up orders and whatnot (I expect to be getting lots of tips/pointers from Dis and IM until I have a decent hang of that)

so in effect Charlie will be running the show how he wants, or how the Cards tell him to run things (ie, me getting advice from Dis and IM, then probably going on my own twisted tangent...lol)

I've got a basic, broad plan in mind, but quite a bit of it will depend on how many former Lyran units shift to Charlie's Adder Commonwealth (that may, or may not, be the official name, just using it for the time being, since Charlie used it in his address to the Lyran People) as this will impact how much support he would require from the Adders in order to stabilize the area


I will also be addressing other issues that have arisen in many areas, through several PMs (those who sent them know who they are), later tonight. Dis and IM are aware of my revised schedule due to finally finding a job (working graveyard shift, and Im about to fall asleep at my desk)

so until I get at least 6 hours of sleep, dont blow up the known universe...Id at least like to be present if that happens

night night