OOC Thread

[Dave Baughman]

Folks, it might not be a bad idea if we all take a step back before we continue. I want the OOC to be an open forum that people can use, but what I'm seeing here seems to be an increasingly circular - and increasingly personal - argument that we've all seen before, both in the FGC OOC and on the CBT forums in general.

Call me crazy, but I think its safe to say that:

A) no one is going to change how they are playing their factions IC based on other peoples' OOC opinions, no matter how forcefully stated.

B) at a certain point the appropriate response is to agree to disagree.

C) IC disputes over IC issues (like, for example, whether attacking the caste system is unclanlike) should be handled in IC venues.

[tassa_kay]

Which is absolutely right, and I *was* harsher than I should've been.  I just feel that no one else is raising these objections, and they should be put out there.

I don't want bad blood with you, JB.  I really don't.  I just wanted you to understand where I'm coming from when I say these things, that's all.  You can imagine how frustrating it must be to feel like you aren't being heard, you know?

But as we've already talked about, Dave, it's also great RP fodder if you look at it as such - it demonstrates that the Clans really are becoming something new and different, and we wouldn't be Blood Spirits if we just accepted that.

I hope that makes sense.

[Dave Baughman]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong - I actually want to see all of this head-butting on the IC side. Frankly, back when I was running RD I was shocked that no one called the RD to the carpet - and called them hard - for the ways they "reimagined" the caste system and the way they openly denounced the Trial of Annihilation against the Wolverines.

My main concern is that when these disputes play out exclusively in the OOC, it doesn't really filter in the to game and instead ends up with folks getting upset and not having fun.

[JediBear]

The tone of the surkai.  It wasn't the tone of a Clan seeking forgiveness.  It was the Bears telling the Clans, "we want surkai, but you can't do this, this, and this, because we won't help you if you do."  I understand that the Clans approach each other from positions of strength, but this strikes me as the wrong tone to take when requesting surkai.  Also, it smacks of prostitution, whoring your services out against the Terrans.  Shouldn't you be doing that even if the Clans choose to Abjure you (for example)?

I know from long experience in the FGC (from long before my Clan took a turn for its present state) that Khans are like children, especially since people generally think that's how they're supposed to act, so I was simply laying out their options for them, as I said IC.

I'm fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.

Really?  Where's the fighting, exactly?  I must have missed it.

I have to stop and explain here that turn 41 will be the first turn for which I have submitted an orders sheet on time. It didn't seem appropriate to me to order offensive actions after the deadline had come and gone, so I have not. So as to where the fighting is? Look for it in turn 41.

Let me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.

Abjuration sounds about right to me, honestly.

Me too.

But surkai is all about asking for what you don't deserve, and a surkairede is going to be short of Abjuration by definition.

Or, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.

I can't entirely disagree with this, but it's irrelevant.  Canon is canon.

And, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.

Yes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely.

So tone down the condescension.  You're one of the worst perpetuators of it, both here and on the CBT forums, and it wouldn't kill you to be a little less arrogant/rude to people that disagree with you.  

Pot, meet Kettle.

I try, I really do. It's an ongoing process, and one not entirely compatible with a classical education.

[tassa_kay]

I know from long experience in the FGC (from long before my Clan took a turn for its present state) that Khans are like children, especially since people generally think that's how they're supposed to act, so I was simply laying out their options for them, as I said IC.

Well, whether or not they're acting like children is open to interpretation, since children generally don't try to work within a law to kill each other, but that's neither here nor there.

And, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.

It just strikes me as rather... ambiguous, and not in a good way.  And I don't see how it could possibly be met with blind acceptance, either, because the caste system is a huge part of what makes Clan society what it is, and to just eliminate one, and not have a word said about it?  Doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?

Pot, meet Kettle.

I try, I really do. It's an ongoing process, and one not entirely compatible with a classical education.

Well, I'm trying here.  Meet me halfway. 

[Daemonknight]

Well, I'm trying here.  Meet me halfway. 

I say Jedi stops a half-step short of halway...just to have the moral highground to say he didn't acced to the demands of a Blood Spirit j/k

[tassa_kay]

Yeah, that was helpful. 

[Daemonknight]

I was being sarcastic Tassa, it was only a joke.

[tassa_kay]

I had no idea. 

[JediBear]

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that its a matter of what can you do and when rather then what you will and won't do for equipment and transports that are your Surkhai. But the idea of being able to say no...no I don't want to for Surkhai is very much chalca.

The only time I said no, it was to a party to whom I have no responsibility. The Hell's Horses are free to hate me as much as they like, and I'll hate them right back in equal measure. Ghost Bear.

And, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.

We should wait why? We're allowed to speak before a vote. And to help frame what the Vote is.

Yes, you absolutely are. So when we're debating a matter before putting it to a vote, you should feel free to chime in, if I ever let you back in, that is.

Also. wait what?...Since when are the Clans a reasoned parliamentarian debate culture? "Would the Right Honorable member from Widowmakers please...." Yeah no.

Actually, yes. That's why they have so many darned Councils. I suppose you never wondered about that...

Clan Council's Grand or otherwise work like this. Those who have a position state it and maybe they sway people and maybe they don't. Everyone already has the facts available when they come in and maybe someone knows more and shares it. Then they vote.

That's also how Parliaments work.

Once they vote the side that lost CAN fight the decision with a Trial of Refusal. Win or lose the result is respected by all. Period.

Trials of Refusal, however, are actually fairly rare. Victories even more so.

I think the biggest problem everyone (who has a problem that is and its not just the Blood Spirits) is that you are not letting us do that when you and Diana Pryde make decisions that come out of nowhere that we don't agree with.

An ilKhan and a Grand Loremaster are a powerful combination, just given their enumerated powers. I can understand how trying to make headway against that kind of combination can be frustrating.

No trials in the HW's. It's unclanlike.

And yet, canonically it's been done before. The Clans are at war, what are your troops doing piddling around in the HWs anyway? That's unclanlike.

Blood Spirits aren't in on those communications and Im acctually fine with that as its good RP for Blood Spirit isolation from the rest of the clans, so we want to do the debate in the Grand Council because for us its new. There is no predetermined agreement on what to do.

Not that I would mind entering into such discussions, or even having actual votes from time to time. But that's a matter of procedure.

And in your case, you have three options as to procedure:
1) Make nice with the GL so she'll let you back into the Hall of the Khans and then proceed as normal (propose motions, get seconds, vote)
2) Note your concerns to people who are allowed in the Hall of the Khans. Send your votes in via courier. I might even permit your Loremaster to attend.
3) Get the GC or ilKhan to compel the GL to let you back in. Of course, you still don't want to be on her bad side.

But for Ghu's sake, show the proper respect. I know Blood Spirits think they're the One True Clan, but they could stand to be mindful of their real place in Clan politics (it rhymes with "small dish")

We want our say before the Vote and if we don't like the vote we want our right to issue a Trial of Refusal.

Why do you think the last bit is weird and unclanlike I don't know. But to me thats whats different about the Clans. Anything can be challenged.

Oh, I don't. All of that's fine. The GL's irritation stems from the constant questioning of her rulings and the constant disruptions of GC business to try to goad one or more of its members (usually the ilKhan) into a fight. That's how she sees it. I can understand why that might confuse you.

I should state here, as I did over on classicbattletech, that the Trial of Grievance is not a normal way of trying to influence policy. In the GC, they should actually be quite rare. As far as I can recall, I haven't seen one in canon.

Look IN my book there are three or four  factions of Clan's right now

I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. For example, I think you'd have trouble assigning me to a category.

Plus your concept of Old School is actually more than a bit off.

- Abuse of Loremaster position. Hurling insults back and forth rather then issuing a Challenge or giving direction based on your interpretation of Clan Law. Seriously, If the Loremaster were not forbidden to be challenged you would have gotten as many as Diana by now.

Challenging the GL is forbidden? I did not know this. Where is that information to be found?

When LT speaks, it is usually to offer direction, I'm not just flapping my fingers for my health.

I have actually invited Khans who disagree with me to challenge me or to appeal to the Grand Council for resolution. So far, none have taken me up on it.

I have issued and fought a Trial of Grievance myself. Frankly, I think I'm doing pretty okay in the Grand Loremaster job, but that's for the GC to decide.

What annoys most about this whole situation. Is you keep complaining OOC about this, when your holding things up by NOT doing your duty and having the Vote. Or if Vote is held or not in any one's purview.

I don't know that I've been derelict in that specific duty.

The IlKhan while having a lot of power Cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item.

Actually, setting the Grand Council's agenda is among the ilKhan's powers. That means that she gets to decide if a matter can even be debated, can table discussions until a later date, etc. She can even order the Grand Council to discuss an issue which does not interest them. See the WoK entry on the ilKhan.

The Loremaster cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. If you'd just have the vote and bid out the Trial of Refusal this would have LONG since been over.

Wait, which vote? Did someone bring an actual motion before the Grand Council that was then seconded and properly debated?

Because I can't recall having seen that. I'll look over the GC threads for the last few turns to see if I missed anything.

Oh don't worry about it we're Clan. We settle things through Trials. However it was issued the GB Loremaster won the trial B Spirits will not come back to the GC.

Until the GL is satisfied that your level of maturity has improved. Remember that in a proper Clan view, losing a Trial of Grievance makes you wrong. What the Blood Spirits should be working to figure out now is how they were wrong and what they can do to be right again. The person to talk to about that is Laurie Tseng. (not, actually, even me. Actually Laurie Tseng. In character.)

And I can't think of anyway to force that to change because the Loremaster cannot be challenged. I've proposed sending Caden to the IS to kill his way through the GB Khans as with their death in single Combat Laurie Tseng will surely be elected Khan of Clan Ghost Bear.

Ha! Laurie Tseng is an old has-been. She'll be elected Khan about when she's the only Ghost Bear left. Good luck winning that many Trials. Also, you are welcome to try.

However, if you really want to remove the GL, there are ways that can be done. A simple majority of the GC can do it for any reason or no reason at all.

But that would take a long time and its unlikely the Ghost Bears would honor any trial or challenges given the way things have been working lately.

When was the last time I failed to honor a challenge?

I'll be going through my clan law to see if I can find anyway to force a Loremaster election (none found so far), Conditions under which a Loremaster can be challenged (none sofar), Or a Trial of Refusal being issued to a GC vote outside of the GC itself (none so far).

You might want to talk to me-as-Laurie about that. I have answers for the first, the last, and I really need to hear about the second.

[JediBear]

And, as such, it's extraordinarily messy and very open to interpretation. Lots of agreeing to disagree in our future.

It just strikes me as rather... ambiguous, and not in a good way.  And I don't see how it could possibly be met with blind acceptance, either, because the caste system is a huge part of what makes Clan society what it is, and to just eliminate one, and not have a word said about it?  Doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?

Well, yes. Of course it strikes me as odd and a terrible idea, and I'm all for a motion to compel the Ice Hellions to re-institute the caste system. I'm just saying that technically, it probably doesn't count as corruption or treason and it may not even be slightly illegal, depending on how you look at it.

On the other hand, I really like my voluntary caste system and don't want people messing with it.

[tassa_kay]

Oh, believe me, we've realized that trying to make headway in the Grand Council is a massive waste of time, and we realize also that we'll never get the slightest shred of respect, but ridicule and scorn, for standing up for our convictions.  That suits us, really, because it means that we no longer have to feel responsible for being a part of the stupidity and powermongering and cowardice and other assorted unClanlike BS that's infesting the Grand Council.

I wanted a reason to pull out of the incredibly stupid war with the Not-Named, and both canon AND some great roleplaying gave me that reason.  And now I have a reason to no longer deal with the Grand Council on any level - because I'm not only disinclined to deal with traitors and cowards and blackmailers and politicians, but I'm no longer allowed to do so as part of that Council.

Believe me, it suits my purposes, because I can concentrate fully on my Clan and not about trying to talk sense into the ears of those who only hear what they want to hear.  It'll make wonderful RP fodder, and an even greater excuse to do something crazy down the road - like get in bed with the conspiracy (after all, maybe they're right), or even open up a dialogue with the Blood and sell everyone out.  And for that, I'm grateful.

[Lord Harlock]

Just pipping in, the original reason that the Wolverines according to "Betray of Ideas" got in trouble and probably got set up to be the Snowball Clan was because they relaxed their caste system. Nicholas Kerensky liked his caste system pretty much the way it was with little or no raising or lowering in it.

Now back to writing.

[NVA]

I am slowly trying to catch up.  I am doing PM's first, so I will note if the information you receive is to be predated by the stuff I will post later in the forums.

[GraeGor]

Ok, I think I've covered most of what needed to be covered in regards to PMs and IC details, though I have the feeling that I missed something

So if those who have anything outstanding yet with the Adders would let me, Dis and IM know, it'd be appreciated