OOC Thread

[Iron Mongoose]

I'm with Tassa on this one.  What he says to you here in the OOC, that's on him and you can form what oppinion you want of that.  But what the Spirits do, or what his TAC guy or gal does?  Maybe they're just all jerks?  If so, that's an IC judgment, and good to know for your own IC interactions, but that's no reflection on the man himself.  IC, the Spirits are known to be pretty hauty and aloof, so its reasonable for them to be jerks, and pretty much the entire TAC is at one another's throats all the time, so that's reasonable as well.

Now, that said, and I know my good friend in this area, be cool about it in general. 

[NVA]

I just want to make public my current status.  I am stepping back a little bit again.  I will not place this on anyone, but, I do want to explain why.

I play this game for fun.  Fun to me means there is occasionally a chance.  Fun to me means role playing through grey areas versus absolutism.  Fun to me means that IC angst rarely carries over OOC.  Frankly, in general, I don't see this anymore.  Instead, it is always 'how much force can I send to make sure I have 3 to 1 odds' or 'I say it is this way and I am the law for this part of the game so shut up' or similar.  And, the OOC angst has been public.  Again, this is not directed at anyone.  I am evaluating if my desire for how to play this game fits with the way it is being played.  I do not MM a lot.  I do not have a lot of proxies to MM for me.  So, most of the game is about the story and the role play.  And, when the story and the roleplay gets to where it has been......

[tassa_kay]

I can't say I completely disagree with you, either, NVA.  I think stack-of-doom is abused shamelessly in this game, and while it might secure one wins, it's also pretty unsporting and doesn't inspire any great desire to continue playing with people who insist on going into every battle with half-a-page of units and overwhelming FP advantage.  And that's to say nothing of the cliquishness and bad attitudes that I've seen as well, or people dragging every little thing that they don't like into a public forum and turning it into an issue.  And there are other things as well, too, but I'll spare people my own personal opinion on what I think is poor gaming/roleplaying (because it'd be pretty arrogant to say so, despite having the right to my own opinion).

To paraphrase a friend, it seems like many feel that "fun" equates to how big their colored blob is on the map, or how much FP they have to throw into fights.  And that's, well, childish and trite... to put it undeservedly kindly.

[Iron Mongoose]

I won't defend some of what you see; I see it too.

But in regards to part of it, as you I think have always agreed, IC reasoning and decison making need to be the driving force for our actions.  So when you look at the sort of millitary tactics being employed, or the sort of real-politic directed at your Wolves (or any other faction, if you're looking out for others, which perhaps you are) one needs to ask if its a reasonable responce based on how RP has shown the cherictors in qustion to feel, or just naked power gaming.  I think in a lot of cases, it is a reasonable IC action to use heavy handed tactics, to politicaly strong arm opponents, to be a bully, or to do these things.  The Wolves, and the peripher, and the Cappies, and the small clans, have always been underdogs, and I think that that is, for better or worse, part of the game.

Yes, it hurts the MM, which is increesingly rare.  Maybe its just that I don't get to play much, but I don't think I see as many AARs as I once did.  But this game is also about RP as well.  Looking at our last two posters, I see two of our foremost RPers, people who had ought to be able to take adversity and make a good story of it.  Sportsman ship is paramount for us as players, yes, but for our cherictors, in the game?  What a better RP hook than your enemy being a bastard, save perhaps being a bastard yourself?

[tassa_kay]

Oh, I've done exactly that with the Spirits, if you'll take note.  And it's made for a good catalyst FOR a paradigm shift from Helm's stance of let's-come-out-of-our-shells-and-PARTICIPATE! to my own stance of screw-you-traitors-and-wannabe-Spheroids-we're-going-home.  Doesn't mean that I have to enjoy the circumstances which brought it about in the first place, because I'd have loved to have been a more active participant in RP with others.  Unfortunately, I can't do that AND accurately portray my characters or my Clan, because neither would stand for the sort of BS that dominates the Clans.

But I do try to deal with it IC, instead of making it into an OOC public spectacle, because that's what sportsmanship is all about.  However, NVA also makes a great set of points, and I'll chime in support and say that it's been frustrating sometimes when each turn I'm handed defeats, mostly due to stacks-of-doom... or to the other Clans apparently giving Holt a free pass on nuking me.  I just take it IC as "oh well, it proves they really are the false and traitorous bastards we knew them to be already", when OOC it concerns me that they've gotten off the hook completely.

I understand where you're coming from, NVA.  All too damned well.  And I don't like it, either.

[NVA]

IM - Should the politics in the game result in the Wolves being targetted?  Sure.  Should it result in every fight everyone in every faction <over dramtizing and generalizing> being calculating 3 to 1 odds.  Should a TH v Clan fight, where both sides have stacks be fun?  Sure.  Is it fun when a single faction can and DOES attack mulitple locations with more FP than your entire faction has?  Not just the Exiles.  Not just me.  I see this all over the place.  I have had fights where I arrived to face the Star Adders and I had a galaxy against a cluster.  You know what, except in one case, when they bid a cluster, I took that or less.  That one place was a specific situation of a force showing they could respond the same way they were treated.  And, I chose to do it once.  I was more interested in the game being fun for everyone than in winning.  And, I lost some of those fights I could have EASILY won.  That is how I play a game.  I am not saying others are wrong.  I am saying, if the win at all cost mentality is how players believe this game should be played and that my definition of sportmanship is not shared, then I am in the wrong place.  I am not trying to force my definition of sportsmanship and fun on everyone.

[august]

If I can chime in, these posts reflect the frustration that I'm having at the moment. With A-R's defenders as scattered or worse than the rest of the Lyran splinters, I'm unable to defend my own worlds for my first cycle on board and perhaps farther. As it stands, I'm going to lose a full third of my worlds on the first turn to Clan doomstacks dropped on militia, refusing any challenges. At the moment, I feel like the putz who writes fluff for the dumb subalterns who stand no chance that will be forgotten as soon as the worlds pass from my feeble grasp - it will probably be the case that Wroclaw and the other worlds immediately decide that the occupiers aren't all that bad and that their previous culture and history was a load of bunk anyway.

Take it for what it's worth, I'm just venting my spleen. But already I'm questioning investing time in a faction that seems to have stood no chance of existing for more than a cycle or two. I enjoy the game and I'd like to play it with you guys, not as a minor accessory to what was foregone from the start.

[Dave Baughman]

Just throwing this out there, but if there is consensus that doomstacks are making the game un-fun (and frankly, I personally think they do detract from the experience), I can make them go away.

In Flashpoint, the combat rules are structured so that while bringing a large force is advantageous, it does not equate to an instant crushing victory. They also gave militia more in the way of teeth so that an invasion against an ungarrisoned planet - while it would still almost always end in victory for the invader - would at least take a few turns and give opportunities for tactics and roleplaying. Those same rules can be ported into FGC, but...

• Everyone would have to change their strategies and there would be a pretty steep learning curve.
• Once its done, it would be permanent.

I think there's something to be said from a narrative point of view about the epic battles that seem to define FGC, but at the same time there is definitely a lot less megamek being played than in, say, turn 21.




As for the issue of personality conflicts and sportsmanship though... that's a harder one to address. My preference is to treat everyone like adults, but that means to some extent letting out-of-game friction between players show through as long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse. Honestly, I hope I don't have to become more proactive in butting into personal disagreements, because I don't want to be the "Intelser policeman" if you follow me.

[NVA]

Stack of Doom is not inherently bad.  I love some of the Stack of Doom vs Stack of Doom battles.  I don't want to see it in every case.  And, in some cases, I scratch my head as to why combined forces would be working together they way they do.  But, that is why I am evaluating my place.  I am acknowledging it may be my view of the situation that does not match the game.

[Marlin]

I think there's something to be said from a narrative point of view about the epic battles that seem to define FGC, but at the same time there is definitely a lot less megamek being played than in, say, turn 21.

There are also a lot less players in her than in turn 21. We have one guy cover 4! factions. That this cannot be good for MM is obvious. Most factions have only one player. I would really like some more MM and the Raids I do just now are one chance for it, but RL is on us as well (besides time schedules). Either you expand the turns so that RP and MM can be played out broader, or do it other ways, which I would not like.

[Aleksandr]

The stacks of doom are a side-effect of the game going on for so long. Earlier on, throwing these kinds of stacks around would have left your border wide-open for a mass invasion pretty much everywhere else. Now, people have had enough time to build up defenses and be able to throw these stacks around, or they've secured their borders with other neighbors through edicts of the Star League/Grand Council.

My response to one of these stacks in pretty much any of the factions I've run would've been to unleash the nukes. I'm not sure why nobody has yet.

[NVA]

Ares II Signatories.  Factions who believe in the honor of their faction.  Etc...

ALso, not everyone has one

[Aleksandr]

Well, that's your own doing, then.

Some of us like to be bastards. 

[chaosxtreme]

The stacks of doom are a side-effect of the game going on for so long. Earlier on, throwing these kinds of stacks around would have left your border wide-open for a mass invasion pretty much everywhere else. Now, people have had enough time to build up defenses and be able to throw these stacks around, or they've secured their borders with other neighbors through edicts of the Star League/Grand Council.

My response to one of these stacks in pretty much any of the factions I've run would've been to unleash the nukes. I'm not sure why nobody has yet.

Um Nukes have been used *Points to Roche* Though I wouldn't call what the B Spirits brought to Roche a Stack of Doom.

As to why not elsewhere? Lyrans fell apart before the Nuke rules came about otherwise Im sure the loonies would have been passing them out like Medal's to Elsie Social Generals.

As for why not some other factions? Dark hasn't really given the FS A good target yet for them. Taurians are probably saving their's for when the FS invades.

Me? Well its not in my best interests....yet.

[tassa_kay]

Believe me, you have no idea how close Strana Mechty got to being nuked this turn.  My finger was literally on the firing button, ready to exert just enough pressure to launch.  But I got over it.  It makes me sad, though, when I think about it.