OOC Thread

[Marlin]

I want to say that I appreciate the Feedback of Cannon's and yes, he is working with less information than the Clan Players.

I am also not offended by his assumptions. I know that the Hellions are depicted differently in Canon, but I have some arguments for my viewpoints.

I appreciate any feedback on Clan playing. (if its constructive ) Just sayin.

And I admire the Adders for what they already accomplished (also before), just look at my Avatar, from where I come.

Lastly let me add: August, welcome back, although your reign will not make it easier for me, nice RP so far. By all Lyrans, that is.

[tassa_kay]

I do find it amusing that the Bears' surkai for their outright treason, the Scorpions' nuking of another Clan, and the Hellions eliminating an entire caste (FYI, Marlin, for such a "Clanlike" Clan, that's one of the biggest crimes you could possibly commit) have yet to be dealt with in ANY way, and the GC's already moving on to dealing with the Wolves.  All this condemnation for NVA, and yet every single person who's condemned him has done AS bad, if not worse, with their own actions.  Clan hypocrisy at its ugliest.

[JediBear]

I do find it amusing that the Bears' surkai for their outright treason, the Scorpions' nuking of another Clan, and the Hellions eliminating an entire caste (FYI, Marlin, for such a "Clanlike" Clan, that's one of the biggest crimes you could possibly commit) have yet to be dealt with in ANY way, and the GC's already moving on to dealing with the Wolves.  All this condemnation for NVA, and yet every single person who's condemned him has done AS bad, if not worse, with their own actions.  Clan hypocrisy at its ugliest.

Actually, that is in no part true.

The Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)

The Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.

The Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.

[JediBear]

2 parts of a whole followed different paths for a time.

Save that, for the entire intervening period, that whole had entirely ceased to exist.

The GC Wolves were not members of the old Wolf Clan (having gone through three Clans and two "generations" since) and the SL Wolves were not members of the Grand Council, being Abjured in two illegal ways and having a verdict of genocide against them.

It is an internal Wolf matter, beyond the perview of the Grand Council normally.

Yes, in precisely the same way that the Abjurement was an internal Jade Falcon matter (despite involving Wolves) and the Capellan invasion of St. Ives was an internal Capellan matter (despite involving another SL member.) This is a matter that is in no meaningful way internal and impacts the GC both directly and indirectly. It has been reviewed by the Grand Loremaster and the ilKhan and has been voided. Any Wolf warriors continuing down this path are guilty of treason.

[tassa_kay]

Actually, that is in no part true.

Really?  Let's see.

The Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)

The Clans wouldn't really care about that.  Your Clan still committed the treason, despite who was in charge at the time of it being committed.  Especially where the TH/Blood is concerned.

Oh, and then there's that small matter of the oath all Ghost Bears take to stomp the Not-Named at the first opportunity.  You should be falling over yourself to slit your own throats for failing that oath for so long.

And don't even get me started on the sheer ludicrous stupidity of an act of surkairede being negotiated.

The Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.

Um, no, they weren't.  The Khan just claimed "they aren't mine".  Does that mean, then, that I could come in and nuke Strana Mechty, and then claim that "well, they aren't mine"?  If so, let me know so I can change my order sheet for Turn 41.

The Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.

Are you kidding me with this?  The Clans ARE required to maintain the five castes, as the Founder himself laid down.  "Betrayal of Ideals" alone makes that clear when McEvedy was ordered to move everyone back to their proper caste by Nicholas.  The Hellions have essentially done what McEvedy did: moved castemen from one caste to another for arbitrary reasons.  I'm more than confident that you're 100% wrong on this one... the caste system is set in stone.  

Then again, the Bears let people choose their caste, so you're hardly an authority on what the Clans are required to do, caste-wise, since you're committing the same crime they are.

[Dave Baughman]

I just want to make sure that I have this correctly - according to the Steiner Housebooks old and new, nobles with a title higher than Baron are not permitted to sit on the Estates General; this bars Landsgräfin Sharon Mulcahy from being a member of the body directly, yes? She might be the driving force behind the Arc Royal Estates General and many of the replacement delegates were "legally appointed" on toady credentials, but she's not the speaker. I'll have to figure out a name for the Speaker of the Assembly later, if I'm right on this. A Landsgräf is more or less a count, yes?

+1 for finding Steiner trivia I was unaware of. This would be accurate - if her rank is too high for her to legally sit in the EG, then she wouldn't be a formal member. A Landsgraf is several bumps above Baron (Freiherr).

[Marlin]

Tassa, I disagree with your view, obviously. And I too have arguments for this move.

I mean, its not like our Great Founder has foreseen what to be done with a Caste whose Members committed High Treason throughout several Clans, etc. etc. Nuking, blabla.

Well, you get the point, I hope.

[tassa_kay]

Tassa, I disagree with your view, obviously. And I too have arguments for this move.

No, you don't.

I mean, its not like our Great Founder has foreseen what to be done with a Caste whose Members committed High Treason throughout several Clans, etc. etc. Nuking, blabla.

You deal with the guilty parties and move on.  You don't just eliminate the caste entirely.  It demonstrates that you didn't even bother to investigate who was guilty and who wasn't, which is a very dangerous and, frankly, silly path to walk.

Besides, how exactly does moving them to other castes DEAL with the problem?  All it would accomplish is moving any traitors to another part of the Clan where they can do even more damage to the Clan from within.

Well, you get the point, I hope.

That you in fact have no way to justify violating the Founder's indisputable law on the caste system?  Trust me, I got it.

[Marlin]

Lol, your denial of my sentence is hardly an argument on itself.

Anyway, you even go so far and tell me that the Clan did not investigate the offenders and even claim that they just sent them to another Caste.. hm.. scratching my head on that one.

Seems we cannot agree at all. I will leave it at that.



Sad enough I lack the time to RP more like the Lyrans do. But a one man show is not enough for even a small Clan, I fear.

And to do the new sheet .. argl.

[tassa_kay]

Lol, your denial of my sentence is hardly an argument on itself.

That's what the rest of the post was for.

Anyway, you even go so far and tell me that the Clan did not investigate the offenders and even claim that they just sent them to another Caste.. hm.. scratching my head on that one.

Well, explain to me something, Marlin.  If you DID investigate the offenders, and dealt with them, what would be the purpose of eliminating the scientist caste... I mean, *other* than violating Kerensky's laws for your own roleplaying amusement?  How are potential traitors any LESS likely to betray the Clan because they've been moved to another caste?

That's what I'm scratching MY head at, because it makes absolutely zero sense.

Seems we cannot agree at all. I will leave it at that

No, it's that you can't accept that the Hellions have committed a crime by eliminating a caste, and that you can't even defend why you did it, IC or OOC.  So maybe it's best that you do leave it at that.

[august]

Thank you, IronMongoose for never allowing my actions to go without hilarious unintended consequences. Phil the Laborer for Archon!

[Marlin]

Well, explain to me something, Marlin.  If you DID investigate the offenders, and dealt with them, what would be the purpose of eliminating the scientist caste... I mean, *other* than violating Kerensky's laws for your own roleplaying amusement?  How are potential traitors any LESS likely to betray the Clan because they've been moved to another caste?

That's what I'm scratching MY head at, because it makes absolutely zero sense.


To me it makes more sense than to gut the Scientists and still leave them be. In other Castes, they can be monitored far better by loyal elements, even if all guilty ones should either be dead or in positions where they cannot hurt the Clan anymore. Also, it makes a point. No one is above justice. I do not see a bit of outrage by the Spirits that Nickys genes were stolen and never found.. uh.. I guess he would have something to say about it. In any case, if whole Clans can be erased, then Castemen and even whole  Castes can be too. *shrugs* The Spirits have long been beyond the point of being a moral instance or speaker of Nicky's wisdom, so I guess they continue to arm and train their lower castes and leave the Grand Council while the Hellions take care of their internal issues alone. I guess not many Clans are like they were anymore when Nicky founded them.

[tassa_kay]

To me it makes more sense than to gut the Scientists and still leave them be.  In other Castes, they can be monitored far better by loyal elements, even if all guilty ones should either be dead or in positions where they cannot hurt the Clan anymore.

Then you have a skewed definition of "makes more sense", because if they aren't guilty (which I'm assuming they aren't, since they weren't punished), why are they being moved?  And on the off-chance that there are still traitors in the mix, why move them around to other castes where they can spread their taint further?

You really aren't going to win this one, Marlin.  Sorry.

Also, it makes a point. No one is above justice.

How are you making the point that no one is above justice by just shuffling the scientists into other castes?  Oh, and by violating Nicholas's law and abolishing an entire caste as well, and getting away with it.  You're sending the message that the Hellions are very MUCH above justice, Marlin.  You just don't see it that way because it serves your interests to be intentionally ignorant.

I do not see a bit of outrage by the Spirits that Nickys genes were stolen and never found.. uh.. I guess he would have something to say about it.

Oh, weak, Marlin... you can't find a single logical counterargument, so you sling mud.  Get over yourself.

Besides, I *did* post that the Spirits will no longer be using genes from Strana Mechty's depositories, and outrage that the scientists conspiracy stole Nicholas' genes is assumed.  Not everything needs to have a reaction posted about it, Marlin, especially the obvious stuff.  But thanks for telling me how to write... not that you're in any way qualified to do so.  

In any case, if whole Clans can be erased, then Castemen and even whole  Castes can be too. *shrugs*

Yeah, that makes no sense.  If you're so confident, why didn't you tell the Grand Council that you eliminated your entire scientist caste?  Why did you react so negatively IC when I told them?  The fact that you can actually refer to MY Clan as "another Clan fallen" when you stomp on the Founder's most basic of laws is, frankly, hilarious and hypocritical... and expected behavior from the Clans these days.

And you wonder why the scientists have done the things that they've done.  They do it because you deserve it.

The Spirits have long been beyond the point of being a moral instance or speaker of Nicky's wisdom, so I guess they continue to arm and train their lower castes and leave the Grand Council while the Hellions take care of their internal issues alone. I guess not many Clans are like they were anymore when Nicky founded them.

Two wrongs don't make a right, Marlin.  Using one UNRELEATED example to argue another shows just how weak your argument is.  Besides, there's no law that says I can't do it... but the Founder HIMSELF says that you can't eliminate a caste and move them wherever you want.  So, you know, whatever you want to go with, bud.

And just so you're aware, Marlin?  It's not the fact that you do these things that I have the issue with.  I am ALL for the evolution of a faction, and yours was a logical one based on what's happening.  My problem lies in the fact that you can't explain it, IC *or* OOC... and my problem lies with the fact that you are constantly looking down your nose at everyone else's "unClanlike" behavior.  It's amusing because you have absolutely no moral high ground TO look down at any other Clan.

You know, Cannonshop, it's ironic that I'm actually finding myself agreeing with you now... your criticism, however ill-toned, was spot on.

[Cannonshop]

I apologize for the tone of last night's post, because it WAS ill-toned, ill-tempered, and to a certain extent unfairly composed.

That said, I'm waiting for August to post Arc Royal having kittens over what Deb just announced. (If anyone has trouble reading it, let me know.  She didn't rehearse the speech, so she drawled in dialect...) and I'm wondering which Clans are going to take advantage of her declared Safcon policy to make in-roads on the Lyrans, which Clans are going to resent the Star Adders for having that open conduit around the Arc Royal defenses, and which ones are going to insist the UIW needs to be absorbed Now (for their own safety, of course...)

While I might have harsh criticisms of how the Clans are behaving as a whole, and kudos to the ones I've been dealing with directly for both strategic, and 'honor' reasons, in-character my faction's got to play by Realpolitik and look out for their own interests-and being a Condom for the Terran Hegemony isn't, in their view, in their own interest.

[Marlin]

And just so you're aware, Marlin?  It's not the fact that you do these things that I have the issue with.  I am ALL for the evolution of a faction, and yours was a logical one based on what's happening.  My problem lies in the fact that you can't explain it, IC *or* OOC... and my problem lies with the fact that you are constantly looking down your nose at everyone else's "unClanlike" behavior.  It's amusing because you have absolutely no moral high ground TO look down at any other Clan.

Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.

And I fail to see the other point you throw around, but I cannot help it. Got examples?