OOC Thread

[tassa_kay]

Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.

So in the absence of being able to explain your own actions, you have to look for someone else to do it for you?  You're sounding like our ilKhan.

Let me try to explain this to you in simple terms: you eliminated an entire caste, but cannot give a justifiable OOC reason for doing it other than, say, you wanted attention.  Because there are going to be two kinds of scientists: ones who are innocent (thereby making a caste move absolutely pointless anyway) and those who are guilty (and now free to sow chaos in OTHER castes).  And if you've already dealt with all the guilty scientists, then what's the purpose of moving them?  

You're basically violating one of Kerensky's core laws, and stomping all over how he laid out the caste system, for absolutely no reason.  I don't see how you aren't getting that.  If you could give an adequate IC *or* OOC explanation, I wouldn't be arguing the point with you.  As it is, "it's my faction and I'll do what I want" is a weak argument and bad, bad writing.  And yes, I can make that judgment call.

It'll be even more sad, and a stretching-to-the-breaking-point of credibility, if not one Clan raises an objection to what you've done.  In my eyes, that's just as bad as doing it in the first place.

And I fail to see the other point you throw around, but I cannot help it. Got examples?

You post on the Chatterweb, and in the GC, about how this Clan or that Clan has "fallen" or is "unClanlike", and you can't even acknowledge *OOC* that you're just as guilty of it as they are, if not moreso because no one else has actually eliminated an entire caste for poorly-arguable reasons.  Want examples?  Go read your own posts.

[Deathrider6]

Umm..guys? Last time I checked this was a game.

[tassa_kay]

Last time I checked, this was a forum for discussion.

[JediBear]

The Bears' surkai was offered and accepted, the conditions are still being negotiated, and I had nothing to do with the treason (and neither did AK or LT)

The Clans wouldn't really care about that.  Your Clan still committed the treason, despite who was in charge at the time of it being committed.  Especially where the TH/Blood is concerned.

I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai. However, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself. The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory. At that point, though, there's no Clan with an OZ that's in compliance -- including yours. Or I suppose you could claim I've been a little slow in that I didn't start driving for Luthien or shooting Exiles at the first opportunity. Or, you know, maybe I could head toward Terra (where the enemy is) instead. But I don't see you knocking on the TH's door either.

Oh, and then there's that small matter of the oath all Ghost Bears take to stomp the Not-Named at the first opportunity.  You should be falling over yourself to slit your own throats for failing that oath for so long.

Yeah, well, I can only RP and MM myself to death so much. Just imagine I've written a hundred RP posts describing one Ghost Bear warrior eviscerating another and we'll call it good. Seriously, though, Ghost Bears really just aren't the type. We resolve internal disputes in a very sedate and thoughtful manner. We're not very clanlike that way, but it saves us a bit of blood.

And don't even get me started on the sheer ludicrous stupidity of an act of surkairede being negotiated.

If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.

The Scorpions' nuking ways have been dealt with after a fashion -- the warriors responsible for it were abjured by executive fiat of the Goliath Scorpion Khan.

Um, no, they weren't.  The Khan just claimed "they aren't mine".  Does that mean, then, that I could come in and nuke Strana Mechty, and then claim that "well, they aren't mine"?  If so, let me know so I can change my order sheet for Turn 41.

There is no difference in practice between disowning ("they aren't mine") troops and Abjuring them.

Now, I don't know if that's the game effect of those actions (someone will have to confirm) but that's certainly what it should be, and how I read it.

And, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.

The Ice Hellions are in no way required to maintain a Scientist Caste.

Are you kidding me with this?  The Clans ARE required to maintain the five castes, as the Founder himself laid down.

Not in principle. There's no reason a Clan would be required to maintain a population in a caste. Should everyone die or be Abjured, the caste could be empty, and the Clan would not be obliged to repopulate it. That said, the Clan in question is shooting itself in the foot.

 "Betrayal of Ideals" alone makes that clear when McEvedy was ordered to move everyone back to their proper caste by Nicholas.

What we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.

Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.

But if doing things according to law, tradition, and proper procedure isn't so much your style, consider that you are now unencumbered by the need to appear before the Grand Council and might as well therefore go try to pester the Goliath Scorpion Khan into dueling you.

Seems I cannot explain it to YOU, obviously. Still have to get reactions by others.

So in the absence of being able to explain your own actions, you have to look for someone else to do it for you?  You're sounding like our ilKhan.

Speaking of which, since I seem to be LawyerLoremaster to the Clans, Marlin might want to get together with me on how to justify it in his official press release. I have some ideas.

[DXM]

Here's my question, Marlin.  Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos?  Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes?  Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either.  Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive.  In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes.  Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.

Congratulations, bud.  In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.

[tassa_kay]

I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai.

A surkai that you put conditions on.  Which speaks to your intentions better than anything you're gonna say here.

However, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself.  The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory.

Then there's the fact that it took this long for the Bears, who allegedly swear an oath to destroy the Not-Named wherever they might be found, to get off their asses and do anything about them.  Let's not forget that.  I'd say ignoring an honor debt and an oath for so long is a far cry worse than having a retirement plan.

But I don't see you knocking on the TH's door either.

Hey, I called off my war with the Blood, and gave justifiable, canonical reason to do so.  So I'm not obligated.  But the Clan that supposedly is sorry for not doing anything before now is the one that's under discussion here.  So I'll tell you like I told Marlin: if the best you can do is to bring my faction into it, when they aren't at all comparable to the example, your argument's pretty weak from the get-go.

If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.

I don't think "buying forgiveness" can be called Clanlike by any stretch of the imagination.  In fact, it appears to me to be the polar opposite of it.  

Besides, if the surkai was at all genuine, wouldn't you gladly accept any punishment the Clans cared to deal out, instead of telling the Clans what you won't do for surkai?

There is no difference in practice between disowning ("they aren't mine") troops and Abjuring them.

Now, I don't know if that's the game effect of those actions (someone will have to confirm) but that's certainly what it should be, and how I read it.

Sweet!  I'd get your people off Strana Mechty, then.  I'm nuking it.  And Abjuring the warriors right before I do it, so you can't blame me.

And, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.

Unclever digs aside, nothing I did stopped that investigation, OR the call for Trial.  No, that was you and the ilKhan that did that by shelving the discussion entirely and making the Scorpions answerable only to the ilKhan instead of putting the matter to a vote.  I don't see how anyone would logically fail to do this once nukes come into play.  Where was all of this reasonable doubt when the Mandrills did it?  

Not in principle. There's no reason a Clan would be required to maintain a population in a caste. Should everyone die or be Abjured, the caste could be empty, and the Clan would not be obliged to repopulate it. That said, the Clan in question is shooting itself in the foot.

That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard from you and not even worth acknowledging.

What we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.

Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.

But if doing things according to law, tradition, and proper procedure isn't so much your style, consider that you are now unencumbered by the need to appear before the Grand Council and might as well therefore go try to pester the Goliath Scorpion Khan into dueling you.

Are you dense?  

First of all, if the Founder says that it's wrong, then it's law.  You obviously don't seem to grasp how the Clans work.  If it was just an internal Clan matter, then McEvedy wouldn't have had to move them back.  Nicholas set the precedent, so to say that it's now not law is a foolish argument in retrospect.

Also, I'm getting really tired of you condescending to me about "throwing tantrums", "barking orders",and "fighting duels".  It's called roleplaying my character properly, based on being a Clan warrior and based on the Clan my character is from.  Maybe if people were more interested in actually portraying their characters logically and reasonably instead of powergaming and rules-lawyering, I wouldn't have to be raising objections like this in the first place.  And if you can't speak to me without talking down to me, then you need to shut the hell up before you say anything to me at all.

[Marlin]

It is all taken care of. The Clan is a bit weakened, but not in the least like you describe.

Also, those free rolls are not only Tech rolls, I think, its also commerce and stuff (much better than any new Tech, in my opinion) If you want a more detailed explanation.. hm.. either per PM or if the GC wants to look into it. Not that it is of anyone's concern than my Clan and probably the GMs.


Lol, just reading. For more ease and less resources, we start breeding our trueborns with 4 fingers only.  Thats a saving of resources by 4 % !!!

Here's my question, Marlin.  Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos?  Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes?  Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either.  Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive.  In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes.  Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.

Congratulations, bud.  In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.

[DXM]

"Commerce and stuff?"  And here I thought you were a Hellion, not a Shark.   

It is all taken care of. The Clan is a bit weakened, but not in the least like you describe.

Also, those free rolls are not only Tech rolls, I think, its also commerce and stuff (much better than any new Tech, in my opinion) If you want a more detailed explanation.. hm.. either per PM or if the GC wants to look into it. Not that it is of anyone's concern than my Clan and probably the GMs.


Lol, just reading. For more ease and less resources, we start breeding our trueborns with 4 fingers only.  Thats a saving of resources by 4 % !!!

Here's my question, Marlin.  Without a scientist caste, who is going to mix the next batch of genes for your sibkos?  Who's going to monitor the iron wombs and makes sure those little kiddies come out on time with the proper number of fingers and toes?  Who's going to do research for your Clan -- without scientists, I'd make the argument that not only can you not pay for R&D rolls, but that you shouldn't get the free R&D roll, either.  Nicholas created each caste with a specific purpose in mind, and they all have to operate together as a single machine if a Clan wants to survive.  In thirty years, when the youngest generation of trueborns starts sliding towards solahma, the only warriors the Hellions will be able to replace them with are freeborns recruited from the Labor and Tech castes.  Soon, the whole Clan will be freeborn.

Congratulations, bud.  In the eyes of the other Clans, you just committed genocide on your people.

[august]

Keep in mind though - the scientist caste also includes your teachers and your doctors, not just engineers and full-time researchers. I can see dispensing with new research, but there would be major consequences unless you pretty much allowed those subgroups to do what they were doing before under a new department label, no?

[JediBear]

I agree, thus the necessity of requesting surkai.

A surkai that you put conditions on.  Which speaks to your intentions better than anything you're gonna say here.

Again, and as I said IC, no conditions were placed on the offer of surkai. I came to the GC and said "We were wrong and we are sorry. Please do not kill us."

That had the intended effect. I don't seem to be being killed, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

I don't think "buying forgiveness" can be called Clanlike by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.

It's true that I've also been asked to bend my industrial capacity in service of other Clans as part of the penalty for my crimes, but I don't see that as "buying forgiveness."

Let me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.

However, that spoke to your claim that I was doing worse myself.  The worst you could claim is that my castes have a retirement plan and aren't universally compulsory.

Then there's the fact that it took this long for the Bears, who allegedly swear an oath to destroy the Not-Named wherever they might be found, to get off their asses and do anything about them.  Let's not forget that.  I'd say ignoring an honor debt and an oath for so long is a far cry worse than having a retirement plan.

Yeah, but again, we're talking about me, not about my predecessors. I took over in Turn 39 and am still getting my bearings. Offensive action is pending.

Sometimes it takes a little time to turn the Titanic around.

First of all, if the Founder says that it's wrong, then it's law.

And yet today, despite Nicholas Kerensky having thrown a tantrum about it in Betrayal of Ideals, Khans are routinely elected with nary a Trial in sight. You're going to need a better argument.

Or, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.

Also, I'm getting really tired of you condescending to me about "throwing tantrums", "barking orders",and "fighting duels".  It's called roleplaying my character properly, based on being a Clan warrior and based on the Clan my character is from.

Yes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely. J

Others of us have other ways, based on our characters and our Clans and our opinion of how Clan Warriors ought to behave. And I think all that's great too. I even applaud NVA for playing his characters to the hilt. I doubt I'll enjoy taking his stuff quite as much as I enjoyed pounding Khan Schmitt flat, but it ought to be interesting.

[chaosxtreme]

If there's anything irregular about that in concept, I am unable to discover it. I had far rather the Grand Council had debated and decided it, but the ilKhan's move to defer the matter was actually especially shrewd. This way I'm buying forgiveness by my conduct in the war, and that seems fairly Clanlike to me. Of course, there's as many different ideas about "Clanlikeness" as there are Clan players. About how it should be, to judge from the canon.

The whole point of Surkhai is (in my opinion) it's like penance. Its not an option you go to the priest you tell him what you did and you say your hail marys and move on. In the case of Surkhai its your next highest authority. Star Captain goes to his Star Colonel, Star Colonel goes to his Galaxy Commander, Galaxy Commander goes to his Khan, Khan goes to his Clan Council. Clan goes to the Grand Council.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that its a matter of what can you do and when rather then what you will and won't do for equipment and transports that are your Surkhai. But the idea of being able to say no...no I don't want to for Surkhai is very much chalca.

And, you know, we were going to have an investigation and a trial and everything. As soon as Blood Spirits stopped barking orders at the GC. So maybe we'll have more action on that front now that we're not being disrupted every time the Blood Spirit Khan gets a hangnail.

We should wait why? We're allowed to speak before a vote. And to help frame what the Vote is.

What we have there is an early-Clan example of Nicholas ordering one of the Khans to "change something back" because he, personally, found it distasteful. What we don't have is any law, tradition, or precedent (because, remember, the Clans aren't a common-law system) stopping any Khan from doing it in the future. Either way, what the Ice Hellions did, or my own Clan's voluntary castes, are internal Clan matters. If you can think of a charge they constitute (treason, genocide, that kind of weighty matter,) feel free to lay it in front of the Grand Council and we'll have it out Clan-style. And by that I mean through regulated parliamentary debate, not throwing tantrums, barking orders, and fighting duels.

Because if you're doing that last, you're playing into a stereotype with no actual canon support.

Well in some clans the Founder's word is law in others its not. A difference here does not make you unclanlike in the eyes of all Clans it does make you a baby eating monster in the eyes of some. You need to understand that as we need to understand that other's will not agree with us when we bring your "perfidy" into the light on the point.


Also. wait what?...Since when are the Clans a reasoned parliamentarian debate culture? "Would the Right Honorable member from Widowmakers please...." Yeah no.

Clan Council's Grand or otherwise work like this. Those who have a position state it and maybe they sway people and maybe they don't. Everyone already has the facts available when they come in and maybe someone knows more and shares it. Then they vote.

Once they vote the side that lost CAN fight the decision with a Trial of Refusal. Win or lose the result is respected by all. Period.

I think the biggest problem everyone (who has a problem that is and its not just the Blood Spirits) is that you are not letting us do that when you and Diana Pryde make decisions that come out of nowhere that we don't agree with.

No trials in the HW's. It's unclanlike. We don't like clan x so...ok they can be trialed by everyone but those who are trialing them are completely safe from all their other Clan neighbors inregards to Trials. Thats unclanlike. It reak's of providing favors to allies and an attempt to establish a Imperial ilkhanate and remove the power of the Council to make policy. As the Ilkhan does NOT make policy he enforces it. GC is the LEgislature the IlKhanate is the Executive with a bunch more power.

At least...thats how it can be interpreted.

Look I know OOC you got a direction you want to go and before the GC meetings even happen you have discussed with several clans what you want to do.

Blood Spirits aren't in on those communications and Im acctually fine with that as its good RP for Blood Spirit isolation from the rest of the clans, so we want to do the debate in the Grand Council because for us its new. There is no predetermined agreement on what to do. We want our say before the Vote and if we don't like the vote we want our right to issue a Trial of Refusal.

Why do you think the last bit is weird and unclanlike I don't know. But to me thats whats different about the Clans. Anything can be challenged.


Look IN my book there are three or four  factions of Clan's right now

Old School:
What makes you old school.
- Might makes right.
- Warden or Crusader you have an interpretation of the Hidden Hope Doctrine that impacts your political decisions.
- If your char dies you pick a new Char have a vote and you have a new Khan or saKhan.

Chrichell School
- Craven politician but still clan mostly.
- Khan won't fight a personal challenge to save his life....no seriously not fighting challenges saves' their life.

Adder School
- Follows Clan Law in spirit as well as word (mostly).
- Has some really off the wall idea's but still doesn't conflict with what it means to be Clan (which is a broad meaning)
- Khan will fight when appropriate.
- Always bids well but not to the point its not a real fight.

Lets call it ...how to not be Offensive. Hopelessly Contaminated by the Inner Sphere School
- Refusing all personal challenges, directed against honor, qualifications etc.
- Abuse of Loremaster position. Hurling insults back and forth rather then issuing a Challenge or giving direction based on your interpretation of Clan Law. Seriously, If the Loremaster were not forbidden to be challenged you would have gotten as many as Diana by now.
- Refusing to fight any Trials where you do not have a clear advantage.

What annoys most about this whole situation. Is you keep complaining OOC about this, when your holding things up by NOT doing your duty and having the Vote. Or if Vote is held or not in any one's purview.

The IlKhan while having a lot of power Cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. The Loremaster cannot prevent the Council from voting on any item. If you'd just have the vote and bid out the Trial of Refusal this would have LONG since been over.

But you kept looking for ways to weasel out of it. So we kept looking for ways to prevent you weaseling out of it. And you keep complaining about it not being over.



Addendum:
Look the aforementioned ideologies as expressed above are at war with each other among the Clans right now, and thats just as legitimate a plot point to explore as "we got to beat the terries."

Look my main faction is the FWL. OOC No one wants the Clans to get to Terra more then me ignore Zellbrigen, kill bunch a Lyrans and then slaughter the Terran Hegemony.

But As a Blood Spirit Im playing a Home Clanner. and Clan Society is just as if not more important to me as Galaxy Commander Geoff Johns and saKhan Caden Church then punishing the Not Named because "Surely the Might of the Clans shall purge their taint from Galaxy." The fate of Clan Society however is less sure with so many Khans (from a Blood Spirit point of view) acting Chalca and the disrespect to the way of the Clans.

[tassa_kay]

Again, and as I said IC, no conditions were placed on the offer of surkai. I came to the GC and said "We were wrong and we are sorry. Please do not kill us."

That had the intended effect. I don't seem to be being killed, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

The tone of the surkai.  It wasn't the tone of a Clan seeking forgiveness.  It was the Bears telling the Clans, "we want surkai, but you can't do this, this, and this, because we won't help you if you do."  I understand that the Clans approach each other from positions of strength, but this strikes me as the wrong tone to take when requesting surkai.  Also, it smacks of prostitution, whoring your services out against the Terrans.  Shouldn't you be doing that even if the Clans choose to Abjure you (for example)?

I'm fighting for forgiveness. There's nothing more Clanlike than fighting in service of your goals.

Really?  Where's the fighting, exactly?  I must have missed it.

It's true that I've also been asked to bend my industrial capacity in service of other Clans as part of the penalty for my crimes, but I don't see that as "buying forgiveness."

Then we defer there.

Let me ask you this OOC, since you never answered it IC: What penalty do you think would be appropriate? For my part, I'm still half expecting Abjuration once the war is over.

Abjuration sounds about right to me, honestly.

Yeah, but again, we're talking about me, not about my predecessors. I took over in Turn 39 and am still getting my bearings. Offensive action is pending.

Sometimes it takes a little time to turn the Titanic around.

That's true enough, I suppose.  And believe me, on that point, I can sympathize with you.  My first order of business when I took the Spirits over was to distance myself from what had been done before.

And yet today, despite Nicholas Kerensky having thrown a tantrum about it in Betrayal of Ideals, Khans are routinely elected with nary a Trial in sight. You're going to need a better argument.

Not really.  I really don't see how you can argue out of Nicholas saying that the caste system exists for a reason, and how eliminating one entirely isn't a crime.  We're gonna have to agree to disagree there.

Or, frankly, a better canon. Toss Blaine out entirely and you have a much more (not to say fully) reasonable and consistent view of the Clans.

I can't entirely disagree with this, but it's irrelevant.  Canon is canon.

Yes, and your character barks orders, throws tantrums, and fights (and apparently loses) duels. Your Clan is also noted for a shortage of perceptiveness and patience. I never suggested you were out of character. Actually, it's a brilliant performance and I've been enjoying it immensely.

So tone down the condescension.  You're one of the worst perpetuators of it, both here and on the CBT forums, and it wouldn't kill you to be a little less arrogant/rude to people that disagree with you.  

Others of us have other ways, based on our characters and our Clans and our opinion of how Clan Warriors ought to behave. And I think all that's great too. I even applaud NVA for playing his characters to the hilt. I doubt I'll enjoy taking his stuff quite as much as I enjoyed pounding Khan Schmitt flat, but it ought to be interesting.

Not that you pounded her flat.  Didn't even cause lasting injuries.  And besides, when Strana Mechty eats a nuke, Schmitt will have the last laugh, anyway.

[Daemonknight]

The Jade Falcons will loose more than their rep ilKhan if Strana Mechty were to eat a Nuke, I'll tell you that right now.

[chaosxtreme]

The Jade Falcons will loose more than their rep ilKhan if Strana Mechty were to eat a Nuke, I'll tell you that right now.

Oh don't worry about it we're Clan. We settle things through Trials. However it was issued the GB Loremaster won the trial B Spirits will not come back to the GC.

And I can't think of anyway to force that to change because the Loremaster cannot be challenged. I've proposed sending Caden to the IS to kill his way through the GB Khans as with their death in single Combat Laurie Tseng will surely be elected Khan of Clan Ghost Bear.

But that would take a long time and its unlikely the Ghost Bears would honor any trial or challenges given the way things have been working lately.

I'll be going through my clan law to see if I can find anyway to force a Loremaster election (none found so far), Conditions under which a Loremaster can be challenged (none sofar), Or a Trial of Refusal being issued to a GC vote outside of the GC itself (none so far).

[chaosxtreme]

Keep in mind though - the scientist caste also includes your teachers and your doctors, not just engineers and full-time researchers. I can see dispensing with new research, but there would be major consequences unless you pretty much allowed those subgroups to do what they were doing before under a new department label, no?

Actually Engineers are a highlevel in the Technician caste.

I was more then a little upset when I read that.