OOC Thread

[Cannonshop]

Lol, those underhanded deals are getting outta control! SOmetime we trade withe UIW for Wobbie gear.

I know, not happening, but funny thought.

I'd be tempted, but I don't think the WoB are selling at low enough prices that I could manage it and not come out deeply in the red with an entire Terran Corps bearing down to wipe me out.

This HAS given me an interesting idea for a Roleplay/Resource generator though...

Casino Australia!  Viva Los Exchange!

Here's how it would work: participants put up (2RP) worth of stake to start, with additional bets based on known events (like the 'free' research roll turn, outcome of someone else's battles, etc.) We operate as the bookie and distribution of winnings for a small cut, since the UIW is neutral, not at war with anyone and has no vested interest in outcomes, anyone can play.

Winners take the pot at the end of the turn, minus a 5 to 10 percent cut for the Exchange.  In the case of multiple winners, the pot splits evenly for distribution.

Naturally, it's above-board at the exchange level, though individual bets are confidential, and really, we have no way to control what your faction may do to influence the outcome...

[chaosxtreme]

What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)

Cut me in as middle man for a portion of the take and you don't have to restrict your trade THAT much.  I can and will trade with the Clans-we are, after all, NOT at war with them, or anyone else for that matter (at least, for the time being.)

And Discretion is guaranteed-I won't tell anyone (well, except the GM's) where the stuff is coming from, or going to.  (NON_disclosure is standard...)

What this means for you, is that your trades are safe from prying eyes of other nations when you deal through me-and the guarantee is more than a promise to 'be good'-after all, I'm tiny, and therefore can't afford to have pissed off customers coming to kick my ass.

Sir I believe we have just entered into a new buisness arrangement.

Ah UIW when you absolutely, positively, need plausible deniability for trading with the Clans....or the Inner Sphere as the case may be. 

[Dave Baughman]

Unrelated note: Jihad Host Spots Terra is great. Just spent the afternoon/evening reading it cover-to-cover.

[Deathrider6]

Indeed it is XTRO:Davion and HTP:Misery are good too.

[Cannonshop]

What he said *points at Cannonshop* But with the caveats of no Invading Clan Factions (Horse Alliance welcome) and no to Arc Royal. :-)

Cut me in as middle man for a portion of the take and you don't have to restrict your trade THAT much.  I can and will trade with the Clans-we are, after all, NOT at war with them, or anyone else for that matter (at least, for the time being.)

And Discretion is guaranteed-I won't tell anyone (well, except the GM's) where the stuff is coming from, or going to.  (NON_disclosure is standard...)

What this means for you, is that your trades are safe from prying eyes of other nations when you deal through me-and the guarantee is more than a promise to 'be good'-after all, I'm tiny, and therefore can't afford to have pissed off customers coming to kick my ass.

Sir I believe we have just entered into a new buisness arrangement.

Ah UIW when you absolutely, positively, need plausible deniability for trading with the Clans....or the Inner Sphere as the case may be. 

That's kind of the idea.  I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price.  Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)

Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)

Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely". 

For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...

(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls.  Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)

Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point.  The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer)  Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...

Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles.  in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts.  The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR. 

Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.

Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game.  Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks.  If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...

So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion. 

[DXM]

Alright.  GMs, I'm calling you out.  I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that."  The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours.  I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet.  I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question.  If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.

1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?

[Daemonknight]

Nuclear weapons are stated in the rules: you start with one per PF, one per National Captial, and 1 per 10 Clan HW Zones(of which you have none), so you are to figure your own stockpile out. It is in the turn 40 Rules Update thread, along with full rules for their usage and storage.

SO Teams: Unless a Lyran SO team defects to you, I wouldn't expect to have one to begin with. These are elite teams that require long time periods of training, but I'd plan on having none, or 1 if you are lucky.

Intel Ratings: Expect to be in the 0-1-2 range, as you no doubt have acquired some skill in dealing with the Lyrans, but without a formal agency or training, are going off instinct and the low-level Lyran defectors you've acquired. However, these numbers are in no way required to proceed with your Orders, as you don't know what the rolls for Intel Missions are anyways.

You need to remember dude, that Dave + Josh have been horrendously busy. Theres alot going on right now, and they've been under pressure to get all the stuff done for the order sheet change, and the normal RP workload they're is under, and also Dave's computer was down for 2 days, and they had to do everything to get Turn 5 finished, and Turn 6 setup for Flashpoint. And who knows if they've had unrelated RL stuff come down on them(as always happens when your other stuff requires alot of attention).

I understand the annoyance at not being responded to, but you have 48 hours like you said, and your stuff is non-critial, meaning that your orders and faction are perfectly operable without that information. They'll get to it, no worries.

[Daemonknight]

That's kind of the idea.  I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price.  Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)

Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)

Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely". 

For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...

(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls.  Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)

Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point.  The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer)  Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...

Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles.  in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts.  The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR. 

Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.

Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game.  Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks.  If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...

So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion. 

Just to put my 2 cents in: I think this is both a bad idea from an IC and OOC perspective.

IC: Would the UIW truly condone, and indeed publiclly support, such an operation? Putting themselves into a situation where there is even the smallest possibility for liability is a huge risk on their part. The SLDF and GC would descend on that body in a heartbeat, for the exact reasons you described: it allows factions to circumvent trade restrictions, and treaty-restricted sales. The GC would take it down just to prevent the off chance that Clantech would be moved on the black market through that system(which I will garuntee would be a huge source of revenue for the exchange). The SLDF would likewise stop it to prevent dissident factions from gaining access to Clantech that could destabalize its member states.

OOC: I don't think its something that will add value to the game, but could create a large headache for some. As the current head of the ICW, I can promise you that it would be one of their top priorities to shut that operation down the moment they became aware of it, to prevent the exact types of illegal transactions you expoused at it enabling. The Jade Falcons would be outraged the first time they found out that another Clan's investment was used to assist a foreign power they were not in a helping mood to, or else would simply come knocking and crush it. I just see it adding problems, and it doesn't fill any empty spot in the rules: if factions wish to trade, they can already do that, and nobody would know about it unless they were told.

I also don't know that if enacted, it should be above the intelligence rules. As it is, most missions dont have a success threshold, but a series of different outcomes depending on the result: a 12 would essentially mean that an intelligence agent had penetrated far enough to gain access to the true logs, and had figured out whatever it was he was after. There shouldn't be a way to make your dealings totally infallible to detection, its just unfair.

[JediBear]

The GC has not been very aggressive about restricting access to Clantech. It's already available on the Black Market, and a number of IS and other non-GC factions already produce and sell it.

I've even considered selling certain pieces openly to the FWL.

[Daemonknight]

Not worried about the Black Market, never going to get them all.

However, unless a GC clan has left to become an IS nation, outside of the Dominion and the Hegemony, nobody can produce Clantech. Its stated clearly in the rules: if you capture a Factory or Shipyard from the Clans, you can produce Clantech from it for a single turn. After that, it can't be used to create Clantech anymore. And as it specificilly says GC Clans, the only faction that currently is able to produce Clan technology that I'm aware of, that isn't allied with the GC is the Exiles/Clan Wolf: however, as they are most assuredly going to be cut off from the homeworlds at some point, and are no longer a GC Clan, I would question their ability to produce Clan technology.

And as I'm not aware of every deal going on, I cannot stop current trading deals, but Diana will be activly trying to prevent further leakages of Clan technology.

[Marlin]

Dragoons and Exiles were the primary deliverers of Clan goodness. Both will likely continue. 

[Cannonshop]

That's kind of the idea.  I'm seriously contemplating actually (with help) setting up a spreadsheet for the Australia International Commodities and Stock Exchange, the public sheet will show only "alias" tickers, the commodity, asking price, average price, and last sell price.  Each client will know their own symbol, their own information, and their income from it (minus the percentage to the "house" for maintaining the exchange, naturally.)

Of course, the GM staff will have access to the master client list, and I'll have to keep a record of what trades happened where, with whom...
Figure an "Entry point" cost of .25 RP for one cycle, .5 for three, and 1 for six cycles (1 RP for a year, basically, the higher pricing for the shorter durations just makes sense, since the master list would have to be altered more frequently!)

Transaction fees would probably work out to 5% or so to handle the transaction "Discretely". 

For example, TXM sells 10 FP to RXD for a lot price of 10RP, then both TXM and RXD pay the exchange 5% of 10 RP so that the Grand Council doesn't find out that the Star Adders just sold ten FP of Omnimechs to the Cappellan Empire, or that the Skye/Donegal Lyrans sold two warships and a batch of fighters and dropships to Clan Blood Spirit, in violation of the Star League treaty...

(the reason for the master-list? Espionage rolls.  Star Adder, say, rolls a "12" on gathering intel to find out how the Blood Spirits just showed up with two Foxes full of Eisensturms and some Overlord A-3's in the second example, or the Grand Council rolls a "12" and finds out the Adders are selling Timberwolves to the Cappellans... in either case the investigators find out the seller is 'scrubbing' the sales using the UIW as a broker...)

Second Example: ILM sells NKC 300 MP at a rate of .25RP/point.  The sale is a total of 75 RP, 5% of that goes to the Exchange (providing 3.75 RP to the Exchange from both seller and buyer)  Now, Clan Wolf has enough MP to finally do that command circuit they need to move their factory out of the homeworlds before it's captured, and the FWL nets 71.25 RP-they can build another shipyard, but it's all deniable to their respective Alliances... "oh, hey, we had that banked..." and it would require an expensive test against the FWL or Wolf Clan on the intel charts to lead back to the Exchange and another dice-test to trace the paper trail...

Third Example: CGC provides a loan to BBT through the exchange at a rate of repayment over seven cycles.  in-game, the Taurians got a 'blind loan' on the exchange, they don't know they're making mortgage payments on their new warship to Clan Jade Falcon's bankers... Exchange on a brokered loan is going to be less than the fees on other, more single-purpose contracts.  The nice part of THAT is that neither party knows the other, so even a very, very successful Espionage roll is only going to show that the trade was made on the Exchange, and that the repayments are moving through it to whomever the 'white knight' lender is-it could be Clan, or Davion, or Kurita, or Periphery, or even the RWR. 

Careful parsing of the exchange's public records could trace out 'Suspects' without a roll, but since the transactions are 'blind', assuming enough participation, only the guys running the exchange and the GM staff know for sure.

Running such a monstrosity is going to be a chore, though-fact is, it looks like a pain in the ass to be frank, which is probably why nothing like it already exists in the game.  Even if it's kept to only three catagories (RP, Movement, Loans) it's going to be a paperwork nightmare, which is why I'm just floating the idea and seeing if it sticks.  If it does, and assuming some structural help from a master-of-spreadsheet formulae to set it up, the maintenance is going to be a real bear of a job...Keeping separate listings for transactions so that the GM staff can do GM things with it when needed or desired, and then there's player churn to worry about...

So, right now, I'm only thinking about it, and maybe doing a few little things to put setting it up in motion. 

Just to put my 2 cents in: I think this is both a bad idea from an IC and OOC perspective.

IC: Would the UIW truly condone, and indeed publiclly support, such an operation? Putting themselves into a situation where there is even the smallest possibility for liability is a huge risk on their part. The SLDF and GC would descend on that body in a heartbeat, for the exact reasons you described: it allows factions to circumvent trade restrictions, and treaty-restricted sales. The GC would take it down just to prevent the off chance that Clantech would be moved on the black market through that system(which I will garuntee would be a huge source of revenue for the exchange). The SLDF would likewise stop it to prevent dissident factions from gaining access to Clantech that could destabalize its member states.

OOC: I don't think its something that will add value to the game, but could create a large headache for some. As the current head of the ICW, I can promise you that it would be one of their top priorities to shut that operation down the moment they became aware of it, to prevent the exact types of illegal transactions you expoused at it enabling. The Jade Falcons would be outraged the first time they found out that another Clan's investment was used to assist a foreign power they were not in a helping mood to, or else would simply come knocking and crush it. I just see it adding problems, and it doesn't fill any empty spot in the rules: if factions wish to trade, they can already do that, and nobody would know about it unless they were told.

I also don't know that if enacted, it should be above the intelligence rules. As it is, most missions dont have a success threshold, but a series of different outcomes depending on the result: a 12 would essentially mean that an intelligence agent had penetrated far enough to gain access to the true logs, and had figured out whatever it was he was after. There shouldn't be a way to make your dealings totally infallible to detection, its just unfair.

It's not above it, DXM:  Intel roll success-they got the stuff on the Exchange.  NOW you need to go find out where the Exchange got it, because the buyer doesn't know, so your spy doesn't know.  (Spies don't know what the target or mark doesn't know... compartmentalization works both ways.)

Hell, for htat matter, the parties to the transaction would need to make Intel rolls to find out who they're doing business with.  In the RP Loan scenario, for instance, the Falcons only know that they answered a loan request from BBT, which could be anyone, and the Taurians don't know they're paying money to a Clanner, because all they know is that CGC is the stock-ticker who floated the loan.

As for ICW rushing to shut it down...well, that's also a cost of doing business.  The risk of "Illegal" activity is pretty much contained by the entry rules of the exchange, and it's between sovereign entities-nobody's signed over their sovereignty yet, but a competing exchange where all they players are known to each other (and everyone else) isn't going to be nearly as profitable either for the members of that exchange, or the operator (Proportionally), because it's more efficient to just make direct deals behind-the-scenes (requiring investigations to dig out and no lead up clues unless it's announced by the parties to the transaction!) than to use a Broker.

It's like swiss banking, DXM-the attractiveness is in the security provided by anonymity, and the broker's need to be honest in order to not be annihilated.


ON the game balance side, it's balanced because in order to work IC, it's a pain in the ass for the dumbass (in this case, me) who runs it-you think the current Record sheet is complicated?  to be worth the effort in terms of yeild, an exchange like this requires at minimum weekly updating, with a separate set of records for the GM staff to peruse on an 'at will' basis (Since, y'know, they're the folks who roll the dice that decides what you find out, how, and how much...) this isn't an easy flog to abuse the rules, and it doesn't require additional rules, it's simply formalizing a sort of arrangement that any three players could come to on their own, and giving it a physical location that CAN be targeted for intel ops.

It's also balanced because of where it is-inherently the kind of retribution you're suggesting is a much bigger danger for a little knothead state like mine, than, say, the Free Worlds League (whom, while they may well decide to take advantage of such an exchange existing in order to conduct their business in a measure of privacy while boosting profit, are unlikely to set one up themselves due to an automatic limitation on who CAN do business with them in such a fashion...ie only Inner Sphere states and a few Periph states that havent' had a war with 'em recently.)

All of that assumes it even works.  For it to work, you need to have enough player factions interested in trade to make it work-notably, the one thing so far that makes me truly reluctant to do this, is that in spite of banging on pans to get attention, I got a sum total of TWO 'bites', neither one for the bit that seemed to be the really serious problem.  What makes me interested, is that a certain player who's had to leave forces where they are because of MP debt, probably has RP to burn, but can't make an open IC deal because of another player's IC politics would burn the deal at the GM level.  An anonymous exchange where it's "Set your price + x%" would handle that really, really well...

AS for ethical (because there's nothing "illegal" here) considerations...we're Playing politicians.

In politics, underhandedness is what you accuse your opponent of (along with corruption).  As Nixon famously is attributed to saying "It's not illegal when the President does it..."

Like I said in an earlier post on this topic, the GM staff isn't already doing this, so it MUST be a pain in the ass.

[Marlin]

Your people should really think about it, CS, as most Clans wont like it.. I guess.

Anyway, except the Naval part, my orders are slowly getting done.. ITs always trouble.

[tassa_kay]

Go for it, Cannonshop.  I can't imagine a Khan that tells knock-knock jokes to his officers while on duty would have much moral high ground over anything you're wanting to do.

[GraeGor]

Alright.  GMs, I'm calling you out.  I have sent you MULTIPLE PMs and emails about this, without ever receiving so much as a "I'll get back to you on that."  The orders date has come and gone, and the extension is coming due in 48 hours.  I need to know this so I can have an actual legal orders sheet.  I'm going public in the hopes that it'll force you to actually answer the question.  If I don't get answers to the following questions via PM or email by the time the orders due-out passes, I'm not going to submit orders UNTIL the questions are answered and I will NOT abide by the late-orders-rules because it is all YOUR fault, not mine.

1.) What are the RWR's intel ratings?
2.) How many SOF teams do I start with?
3.) How many (if any) nuclear weapons do I start with?

Don't feel bad, I'm still waiting for a few answers as well, both for the Adders and for Charlie's 'Adder Commonwealth'


And if anyone would be willing to send me at least one sample of an Independent AeroSpace Regiment detailed out by Squadron, including a variety of ASF Carrier DropShips it would be appreciated

Finally, what are the usual "components" for an Inner Sphere Naval Expeditionary Fleet, a sample of one of those would be equally appreciated, especially if its somewhat detailed: JumpShips, DropShips, Support Units, etc