OOC Thread

[JediBear]

Felt like jumping in with my legal opinion is all. Sorry, boss.

[Daemonknight]

don't know why you're aplogizing, nobody is mad here. atleast I'm not anyways.

[chaosxtreme]

I asked NVA why your trial was legal and the Hellions wasn't. The combat boards are public, so i can comment on anything I want, can't I? Just like its public here.

And I said the ToP was illegal, because they are. Untill Jedi said otherwise, I didn't realize the Wolves were considered abjured- considering the GC undertook a vote to abjure them, how can they already be abjured? Fine, they're abjured- your trial is legal. But he can't have your trial be legal, and the Hellions' illegal. Doesnt work that way. Not that he gets to make that call, considering he is in no way an offical Clan anymore.

Thats my point. I had no issue with you running the Trial, because even if i tried, you'd ignore anything Diana or the Falcons had to say. So i wasn't going to fight a battle I couldn't win. And i wasn't trying to start a fight or anything- trying to clear something up that didn't look right to me. It was resolved with NVA's last post, and I had forgotten about it untill i saw there were 5 more messages about it. And I'm not being hostile, not at all. If you took what I said the wrong way, theres nothing I can really do about that.

Actually, there is nothing but the threat of being thought a coward or someone just attacking you anyway to prevent a Clan or a warrior from refusing a trial or at least most trials.

You have used it more then once yourself. Not trying to nitpick here.

And while no one is angry yet. May I suggest a new topic?

How about how awesome the FWL is? Take that elsie...take it! Heh!

[tassa_kay]

I asked NVA why your trial was legal and the Hellions wasn't. The combat boards are public, so i can comment on anything I want, can't I? Just like its public here.

Glad you understand that.  Keep that in mind next time you ask me why I'm speaking out on a situation that I'm actually directly involved in, because you just answered your own question.

And I said the ToP was illegal, because they are. Untill Jedi said otherwise, I didn't realize the Wolves were considered abjured- considering the GC undertook a vote to abjure them, how can they already be abjured? Fine, they're abjured- your trial is legal. But he can't have your trial be legal, and the Hellions' illegal. Doesnt work that way. Not that he gets to make that call, considering he is in no way an offical Clan anymore.

This is the Clans, friend.  NVA can say anything he wants, because might makes right.  It's up to the Hellions as to how they're going to proceed from that point.  Yes, NVA's reasoning is a little shaky, but that's typical for the Clans.  Honestly, if I were NVA, I'd have just told Marlin that I'm already engaged in a Trial and that he'd be the one breaking Clan law for interfering in it.  A bit shaky since the Wolves are Abjured and all, but it's a better response than the one actually given.

Also, NVA can refuse any Trial he wants to, because Trials are refused all the time.  I shouldn't have to tell you that, of all people, should I?  And the Wolves themselves, *before* their Abjuration, have also exercised that right (when the Sharks, IIRC, challenged them at one of their DP holdings).  It's really up to the Hellions as to how they want to proceed, but he could refuse their Trial for any number of reasons... not least of which being that, since they aren't considered to be "Clan" anymore, they don't have to follow Clan law.

Thats my point. I had no issue with you running the Trial, because even if i tried, you'd ignore anything Diana or the Falcons had to say. So i wasn't going to fight a battle I couldn't win. And i wasn't trying to start a fight or anything- trying to clear something up that didn't look right to me. It was resolved with NVA's last post, and I had forgotten about it untill i saw there were 5 more messages about it. And I'm not being hostile, not at all. If you took what I said the wrong way, theres nothing I can really do about that.

Fantastic that your question was answered.  But don't try to call me out because I decided that I wanted to add my own perspective as an active participant in the situation at hand.  You also said that my Clan was engaging in an illegal Trial, and I was refuting your assertion.  Which is my right, since it's a public conversation and all.

And no, I'm not mad in the slighest.  I'm amused, if anything.

[JediBear]

For what it's worth a Trial of Possession is a slightly different case than a Trial of Grievance.

In a typical case (supposing that such Trials have not been forbidden) the defender is actually obliged to defend. Nothing in Clan Law stops the challenger from merely waltzing in and taking what he wants anyway. To refuse the Trial is literally to offer no contest to the batchall's claim of rightful ownership. If you resisted after declining the Trial, you'd technically be the one in violation.

[tassa_kay]

I agree with that assessment, believe me.  I'm just saying that he CAN always say no, and the Hellions can either choose to respect that, or they can move in regardless.  It's not like NVA has anything to lose, because the Wolves are Abjured, anyway.

[Holt]

Being attacked by spheroids and greedy Rimmers I can understand. (and I think it's funny that almost everyone else appears to have gotten more troops in the AC then the AC originally did )  Being attacked by one of our former allies (whose OZ we originally carved out) out of the blue with no notice a bit less so especially if they end up invading.  Any chance for an OOC or IC explanation on the reasoning on it Holt?

I just finished a 10+ hour day moving a new colleague into his new home in the lovely 90-100 degree weather and near 100% humidity of south GA.  As such I'm gong to hold off posting up any Adder stuff till tomorrow after I've recovered a bit.

The Cats have been planning to hit those worlds for many turns now and started hitting them last turn, per the guidelines Dave gave me (Since the cats i do not fully run).

IC:
In case i have missed something, the Adder Commonwealth isnt Clan Star Adder, they have not been given special treatment by the Grand Council, or been properly absorbed into Clan Star Adder; i.e. via conquest.

To the Cats and probably many clans the Adder Commonwealth is still an Inner Sphere state, until such time as they are properly absorbed by Clan Star Adder via Clan law approved methods, they are free game.

Just because you wear changed jerseys doesnt mean you fully joined that team.

OCC:
The Adder Commonwealth is a separate faction, having their own spreadsheet, budget and color; to my knowledge. If they were really Clan Star Adder they would be one faction only.

[GraeGor]

The Cats have been planning to hit those worlds for many turns now and started hitting them last turn, per the guidelines Dave gave me (Since the cats i do not fully run).

IC:
In case i have missed something, the Adder Commonwealth isnt Clan Star Adder, they have not been given special treatment by the Grand Council, or been properly absorbed into Clan Star Adder; i.e. via conquest.

IC:
What the Adders did is not that different from Ulric sending Phelan to take 1 world for the Wolves from the FRR (cant recall the name of the planet off hand, though I am thinking it was Tamar, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that), we just did it on 1) a grander scale; 2) used the Lyran Collapse to our advantage; 3) used name recognition, also to our advantage; and 4) asked (though this was pretty much Phelan's way of "conquering" as well)

There was no need to grant them special status/treatment since the issue was not raised, to my knowledge the GC accepted the ACW as Adder Territory, accepted the method that gained the Adder those worlds, and accepted the concept of placing a Clan Warrior on the Lyran Throne.

To the Cats and probably many clans the Adder Commonwealth is still an Inner Sphere state, until such time as they are properly absorbed by Clan Star Adder via Clan law approved methods, they are free game.

Just because you wear changed jerseys doesnt mean you fully joined that team.

IC:
Better check a GC thread, Stanislav stated pretty much that those worlds are Adder Territory and would be defended as such, and no one disagreed with him at that time....hell, no one even raised their voice at the time protesting the HOW the Adders got those worlds, so by the lack of objection, in the minds of the Adders, those worlds belong to Clan Star Adder (http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=499.15, 9th paragraph).

And by the above logic, guess that means that the worlds the Cats currently occupy that were once Lyran should be Adder as well since 1) they are the ones that took them in military combat, and 2) Adders essentially gave them, with several conditions, to the Cats...there was no Challenge, no military conflict of any kind between the two Clans...so feel free to give those back anytime since you never Trialed for them

And since the Cats, nor anyone else, complained as to HOW the Cats gained those former Adder worlds...they were given to them; then that can be viewed as how the worlds came into the Adder Commonwealth, they gave themselves to the Adders

How many planets have joined a Clan that were never actually conquered, they just gave up rather than fight? How many just surrendered without a shot being fired? How many worlds should no longer be treated as being part of a Clan because they do not meet the one criteria you just cited...No Military Conflict.

OCC:
The Adder Commonwealth is a separate faction, having their own spreadsheet, budget and color; to my knowledge. If they were really Clan Star Adder they would be one faction only.

OOC:
Sub-Faction at best, in a sense the ACW could be seen as a variant of the kindraa (bad choice for comparison I know, then how about the Duchies, Counties, and all the other pieces that make up the FWL), and we, the Adder Players, were given the option of doing it all on one Sheet, but I felt that it was time for me to learn how to fill them out, organize them, one day understand them, and to take some of the burden off Dis who has been doing the Adder Orders since the beginning (which I have stated on more than one occasion on a couple of threads).

And if you've noticed, there is no separate ACW IC thread, anything that pertains to it will be handled in the Adder IC thread. Only the UIW and RWR, of all the Lyran Factions, have their own IC threads. Which is a damn good OOC indication that the ACW is not independent per se.

I've played the ACW IC as being part of Clan Star Adder, at least 2, if not 3 since the Ravens didn't blast the defecting forces out of the sky, other Clans HAVE accepted the ACW as part of Clan Star Adder (check the Falcon and Hellion IC threads), and considering the ability of the Chatterweb at spreading news, it sure as hell is public knowledge to all the Clans that those two Clans are treating the ACW as part of the Adders...including the News Broadcast made by the Falcon Khan (or was it saKhan) that any and all Lyran forces that choose to follow Charlamagne would be granted amnesty, and be allowed to journey through their Space in in order to join him in the "Adder Commonwealth".

Though if you want, I can ask Dis to do the whole works just to placate you, if he is willing to accept the addition of the extra workload, then next turn the ACW will, in all aspects, be treated as part of the Adders...one Sheet, one Color, one...oh wait, those'd be the only things that really change, Stanislav would still be the Khan, Charlamagne would still be the Military Administrator for a portion of Adder Territory, Charlamagne would still be Archon-Designate of the Lyran Commonwealth, and the term Adder Commonwealth would just be shifted to be all inclusive for all the Adder OZ.

[JediBear]

I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.

[Cannonshop]

I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.

Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position.  If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.

[JediBear]

I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.

Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position.  If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.

Well, I said it's another thing. By that I didn't mean to say it was suspect, necessarily. Rather that it was complex.

The RasDom, for example, has some soldiers that are Clan Warriors (and thus entitled to battle honors and the like) and others that are not. The faction exists through a legally interesting alliance between Clan Ghost Bear and the Free Rasalhague Republic, which continue to exist as fundamentally separate legal entities with no clear authority between them. In practice, the Warrior Caste pretty much runs things, but more as the majority political party than the way most Clans run their affairs.

And the Rasalhague Dominion might well be illegal. I haven't actually quite worked through all the ramifications of it. Some aspects are especially alarming. You have to recall, I wasn't in on this thing in the first place, and the guys who did weren't exactly interested in that sort of thing.

[Cannonshop]

I think there can be little doubt that the ACW is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder. What that means from the perspective of Clan Law and Honor is another thing altogether.

Actually, Bob, the problem I see, is the precedence-your faction in particular, argues in favour of Grae's position.  If his position is incorrect, so is the legality of the Ghost Bear Dominion.

Well, I said it's another thing. By that I didn't mean to say it was suspect, necessarily. Rather that it was complex.

The RasDom, for example, has some soldiers that are Clan Warriors (and thus entitled to battle honors and the like) and others that are not. The faction exists through a legally interesting alliance between Clan Ghost Bear and the Free Rasalhague Republic, which continue to exist as fundamentally separate legal entities with no clear authority between them. In practice, the Warrior Caste pretty much runs things, but more as the majority political party than the way most Clans run their affairs.

And the Rasalhague Dominion might well be illegal. I haven't actually quite worked through all the ramifications of it. Some aspects are especially alarming. You have to recall, I wasn't in on this thing in the first place, and the guys who did weren't exactly interested in that sort of thing.

You and I both know how it looks from an objective, deeply ensconced in canon perspective....but from an IN CHARACTER perspective, the Adders have a legitimate beef due to precedence in the Grand Council (as well as recognition by members of that body.)  Based on the relationships and debts incurred, the Spirit Cats' actions are Dezgra in the extreme, it would be different if they had a long-running feud with the Star Adders (the Blood Spirits could do it and not be breaking their honour, for instance)...However, this is stabbing an ally you owe something to in the back, in the middle of a War against the most Savashri, Dezgra, Chalcas enemy in the history of the Grand Council-at a critical moment when a member OF that Council has effectively managed to encircle and isolate the bulk of the enemy's field forces without losing a single warrior.

At barest MINIMUM the Cats should have issued a challenge to Khan N'Buta in the Grand Council for a piece of that action.  Based on what I read here, this was not done before they initiated operations. (as the territory in question is strategically valuable, and the No-I mean "Spirit" cats did not follow proper Clan procedure to trial for the corridor...)

The territory in question has been recognized as Star Adder land, it's strategically valuable, and represents a salient that can be used by the Grand Council's forces to speed up progress in the war, separate "False" SLDF forces from their base of support, and bring front-line forces within striking distance of the Enemy.  This action not only deprives the Star Adders of territory, it also deprives the other CLANS of that territory and the right to challenge for it.

The UIW precedent does not apply here-as the Interclan Watch (unless, y'know, they're incompetent or something) can confirm that the UIW opened their borders to SafCon and offered a useful, even valuable service...and still, the Grand Council vote specifically grants only the right to Trials against  the UIW, while recognizing their sovereign right to exist-none of these things apply to the Star Adder territories in the former Commonwealth-those territories are clear Star Adder property and would at minimum require formal challenge to Star Adder forces-which forces have not (yet) been able to be fully present in the area.

In other words, it's theft and piracy, and violates CLAN law.

I wouldn't care, except that it's out-of-character for the Clan  involved, and clearly a sock-puppet-spank.

[tassa_kay]

Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist.  It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well.  Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?

It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying.  Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.

Just an observation.

[Cannonshop]

Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist.  It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well.  Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?

It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying.  Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.

Just an observation.

Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me?  Maybe an illusion...

[JediBear]

Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me?  Maybe an illusion...

Wouldn't be the first time. I remember, way back at the beginning, Ghost Bear's attempts to railroad me into a war with the DC. We both looked at the situation, said "Yeah, that's stupid" and stepped back from the brink.

Of course, we were both punished for it. I lost a Khan, Kurita lost an heir.  But we never went the direction the GMs had intended.