OOC Thread

[NVA]

All these comments about the ACW are interesting.  About it being a part of CSA, etc.  Except for one minor fact to me.  The ACW did not accept Khan Stansilov or whoever as their leader.  Instead, they are pushing an Adder-Steiner as Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth.  They still want to be the 'Lyran' state.  Now, if the Adders want to become the Lyran state...Then, they could agree to follow Archon Charlie Steiner...Though, that could go over REAL well in the GC. 

[Dave Baughman]

Holt's running 3 Clans (Cats, Sharks, and Scorpions), and the Scorpions have engaged in outright traitorous behavior without so much as a slap on the wrist.  It's almost a certainty that the Scorpions are completely compromised by the scientist-caste conspiracy, and there are already signs that the Sharks are similarly compromised as well.  Would it really be a stretch that Holt, who I know for a fact has to get GM approval for anything he does with the Scorpions, might be doing this at the behest of the conspiracy, which would honestly love nothing more than to see all the Clans rip themselves apart?

It has to be a better alternative than it simply being a matter of poor roleplaying.  Let's face it; with all the IC *and* OOC drama surrounding the Cats' return to the Clans, they'd be pretty ****ing stupid to risk having the other Clans start looking hard at them... unless there's something else going on behind the scenes that none of us are privy to.

Just an observation.

Hmm...do I hear a steam-whistle, and are those train-tracks I see laid out before me?  Maybe an illusion...

Nonsense. The GMs use maglev to railroad Clan roleplaying - it reflects their superior technology.







That was a joke.

[GraeGor]

Ah, but the idea to push Charlie was Stan's idea, and the propaganda put out by the IS News Agencies has pretty much painted all Clan Warriors as being devoutly loyal to their Khan and Clan.

This "War of Propaganda" has been going on for years, like a decade or more since the Clans arrived, so how many people have been essentially brainwashed into believing that which they have been told by trusted reporters, their leaders and ComStar...that "the Clans are mindless killing machines who follow their leader without question or consideration of their actions".

Clan Star Adder has been waging a Public Relations War in return, they were one of the first, if not the first, to establish relations and an embassy with a Periphery Power, they were the the first Clan to help in the fight against the Arluna Flu epidemic, they were the only Clan to help or offer to help in the rebuilding of those worlds hardest hit by the Plague. They sent thousands of Lyran Soldiers back to their homes and families when by rights they could have made bondsmen of them all.

Yet "knowing" that "fact", and the facts based upon actions performed by the Adders, there are a total of 50 worlds in 31 Hexes that decided to back a Clan Warrior, so I am willing to bet that while they pay homage to Charlie, they know full well that he answers to the Khan. Most just pretend otherwise and go about their lives in the hopes that War won't come to their world, praising Charlie all the while.

The gamble and efforts put into the War of Words, "humanitarian aid" and "prisoner return" paid off big time, far beyond anything I (both IC and OOC) imagined.





For example, I live in the USA. I know who the current President is, but as long as the laws, edicts and whatnot he implements don't have a noticeable impact on my life, I'm not really going to notice he even exists. Same applied to Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Reagan. Before that I was really to young to care who the President was.

[JediBear]

Nonsense. The GMs use maglev to railroad Clan roleplaying - it reflects their superior technology.

I knew it!

[NVA]

Oh, I agree Grae, there is PLENTY of wiggle room with it.  However, I do not believe it is as hard and fast as some are suggesting.  First, 2 orders sheets means 2 factions.  Second, 2 different leaders <Stan vs Charlie>.  Third, the are propping Charlie up as the LYRAN Head of State.  So, what does that mean for the Adders.  Are they suggesting a merger making it one state?  That has not happened yet and would be DAMNING for Charlie's attempt to be approved by the EG, I would think.

So, I know many see the ACW as a seperate entity, similar to the Exiles.  Not 'clan', but clan-esque.  I am surprised to see the role play of everyone playing clanner trials in the ACW, as these are not Clan Warriors trained in these ways.  <Kudos to the Lyrans and their Trial of Apropreation>.  Anyway...I am not telling you how to play it.  I am pointing out there are other valid interpretations of what is happening and the CSC, in some peoples view of it, are in no way attacking CSA.

[JediBear]

Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?

If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.

And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.

So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.

[NVA]

That is a valid opion based on your train of thought.  But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey.  It is not black and white.  And, that is EXACTLY what makes it interesting and fun to play with.  Black and White is not fun.  Just like the FWL is working in grey areas that suits their purpose.

Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?

If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.

And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.

So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.

[GraeGor]

Oh, I agree Grae, there is PLENTY of wiggle room with it.  However, I do not believe it is as hard and fast as some are suggesting.  First, 2 orders sheets means 2 factions.  Second, 2 different leaders <Stan vs Charlie>.  Third, the are propping Charlie up as the LYRAN Head of State.  So, what does that mean for the Adders.  Are they suggesting a merger making it one state?  That has not happened yet and would be DAMNING for Charlie's attempt to be approved by the EG, I would think.

Stan and Charlie could really care less about the EG...in their minds if the EG had really cared about the LC, then it wouldn't have collapsed, it's the people that were appealed to, so their the ones that will ultimately have the last word.

And to be perfectly honest its propping a Clan Star Adder Bloodnamed Warrior as Head of the Lyran State. If the Adders didn't have the Steiner Bloodname, then this whole idea wouldn't have seen the light of day, or the darkness of my imagination...lol

On such a large scale actual, full implementation of standard Clan anything would be doomed to failure, and ruin the whole, well, experiment...which this could be viewed as, using the recent past as inspiration and warnings
FedCom, after Hanse and Melissa got married, the LCAF suddenly underwent massive structure changes, so I can only conclude that the civilian sectors were similarly altered...
RasDom, years of proximity and interaction, lots of time to acclimate to each other as the GBD

which succeeded, and which failed....Adders are learning from history, which is, in my interpretation, their greatest strength

So, I know many see the ACW as a seperate entity, similar to the Exiles.  Not 'clan', but clan-esque.  I am surprised to see the role play of everyone playing clanner trials in the ACW, as these are not Clan Warriors trained in these ways.  <Kudos to the Lyrans and their Trial of Apropreation>.  Anyway...I am not telling you how to play it.  I am pointing out there are other valid interpretations of what is happening and the CSC, in some peoples view of it, are in no way attacking CSA.

I've tried to RP the naivety possessed by the ACW "military" in regards to Clan Trials [points to Leroy as prime example], some are acting according to what they've been told, hoping it garners them some brownie points more than likely, while others could care less as they're still in "LCAF Mode", and will probably stay that way until they're sat down and told "Nuh uh, we don't do things that way anymore. Now write 1000 times in the dirt with your boot knife, I will not play smear the queer against opposing forces unless they break Zell first."

And I know most view the ACW as separate, and I expect it, in some respects I encourage it, for right now even they aren't sure what their "classifcation" is. Though as I pointed out, the only ones that matter to the Adders are the Clans, and since none objected in the GC, then they too agreed that the ACW is Adder Territory, and would be treated as such.

Now if the GM's, through Holt, have plans for the Cats (though wasn't there someone who was interested in playing them, or did he lose interest), then that's fine, I can role with the punches and will have fun with the RP until the Adders can spare a Galaxy or two to enforce their will on the uppity neighbors.

[JediBear]

That is a valid opion based on your train of thought.  But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey. 

Few things people think are grey are actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.

But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.

[NVA]

Understood.  The point is, the 'grey' area is what makes RP work.  A game like this, if only black or white, would not be any fun.  It is in the varying interpretations of things that we get conflict and issues to work with.

That is a valid opion based on your train of thought.  But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey. 

Few things people think are grey are actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.

But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.

[august]

Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?

If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.

And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.

So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.

To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.

[GraeGor]

To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.

I agree its plausible, and one never knows what the Cards are going to say.....

[chaosxtreme]

That is a valid opion based on your train of thought.  But, like the Wolf abjurement, it is grey. 

Few things people think are grey are actually grey. This isn't. Neither was that.

But then again, I live by the principle of the excluded middle (that is: a thing either is or it's not.) Your mileage may vary.

It is Grey. I can quite honestly develop a fully rational logical argument that the Wolves are not abjured under Clan Law.

I can develop a completely rational logical argument that the Wolves are abjured under Clan Law. Its all about interpretation. In the end since its the Clans someone will have a fight and it will settle the matter.

The Free Worlds League issue is completely grey. Is there a Lyran Commonwealth? As the Commonwealth is a government and its only two branchs do not exist right now in an official capacity. Archon and or Estates General. It can argue that there is no Lyran Commonwealth.

It can also pick any of the Lyran Successor states or a Lyran noble and say "That guy" is Archon. It's grey because no one can say "Because of statute etc your wrong"

When I took over as C-G I didn't negotiate the Lyran treaty but I did negotiate the Terran Hegemony Peace treaty. And I was very careful to give myself as much wiggle room as possible. So that is grey as well. I have actually by some view points broken the treaty but if you read the wording...I haven't broken a single article of the peace accord of the treaty. The treaty doesn't actually require me to not go to war with the Lyrans, it doesn't require me to maintain a buffer zone (only acknowledges that there is one in the Lyran treaty).

As someone said this setting is fun because everything is grey not black and white. Can the Lyran's villify the League? Certainly we can do the same, or not everyone has skeleton's everyone has been an angel and a demon and everything inbetween.

:-)

[chaosxtreme]

Charlie Steiner's a Star Adder Warrior, right?

If he is, he's a subordinate of the Khan of the Star Adders.

And he's the unquestioned tyrant of the Adder Commonwealth.

So the Adder Commonwealth is clearly a wholly-owned subsidiary of Clan Star Adder.

To be fair, the same logic might lead one to say that England was a wholly owned subsidiary of France on the eve of the Hundred Years War; whether this logic holds depends on the position of Charlemagne Steiner himself. One could present the case that becoming Archon would dissolve his formal loyalties to the Adder Khanate - I don't see that happening, but I think that it's not, on the surface, an implausible argument.

To be fair your going to say the French King would not have made that fact as well as his propaganda had he the power to do so? Though now that I look at the rest of your reasoning we are largely in agreement. Whoever wins the Lyran Civil War will write the history books and his contenders will become "the horrible traitorous pretenders" and all his supporters will be sweetness and light.

[august]

Well, sure. I approach these things via Benjamin's "Zur Kritik der Gewalt" - the law can say whatever it wants, but it's nothing more than an illusion unless anyone decided to enforce it via, well, force. There's no one in the Commonwealth able to enforce the law in full at present, so sure, the existence of the Commonwealth is in doubt. That doesn't mean that the law is insignificant - it's got to be the basis of any rhetorical strategy that aims at its restoration, which is what I'm after IC. OOC, I see most of what Arc-Royal does as posturing, but as a posturing towards a time when these gestures will have obvious meaning once again.

Which is, I guess to say, just that I wouldn't take anything A-R says for granted OOC, but IC I try to make a good show of it.