Rules Discussion

[Marlin]

I dont think it is needed, the new modifiers.

If you would go either by BV or even just by machine which would be the IC way, even and especially with the Skills, you would get a decisive advantage as Vet or Elite against Regulars.

Ask August as I fought a Recon at dunno 100 or 90 % against me with Vets versus Greens and despite a quite equal BV, the Greenies mostly had no chance.

It was MM, though.

If you have Elites vs lesser ones, just add the BV of Regular and then apply the Modificator.

1 Mech Regular vs 1 Elite will be a huge FP difference. And thats the bottom line. Nothing other needed.

[GreyJaeger]

We are not talking  about MM. Or table top. Since this game has gone to 90% SimRes, Veteran and Elite Units are completely useless. And sorry, but even in MM and tabletop, BV is no better. An equal BV battle in which fewer higher skilled troops against a larger number of less skilled pilots, as well as being quite overwhelmed by overall tonnage, is usually a loss for the better trained side. But when they do win, it is because of their skill. This skill is not in the FGC. Veteran and Elite has no use save as an FP boost, and is not worth even the tiny amount of time and resources to do training. Just ask Uncle Joe. "Quantity has a quality all its own." That is the only way the game is played at this point.

[Dave Baughman]

We are not talking  about MM. Or table top. Since this game has gone to 90% SimRes, Veteran and Elite Units are completely useless. And sorry, but even in MM and tabletop, BV is no better. An equal BV battle in which fewer higher skilled troops against a larger number of less skilled pilots, as well as being quite overwhelmed by overall tonnage, is usually a loss for the better trained side. But when they do win, it is because of their skill. This skill is not in the FGC. Veteran and Elite has no use save as an FP boost, and is not worth even the tiny amount of time and resources to do training. Just ask Uncle Joe. "Quantity has a quality all its own." That is the only way the game is played at this point.

Wouldn't a more effective way to make skill levels "fair" in simple rez be to just fix the FP multipliers so they correspond with the Total Warfare era BV skill multipliers?

Right now its the other way around to give skilled units an edge in megamek, but perhaps its time to re-evaluate that game balance decision. What do all of you think?

[GreyJaeger]

I have not really looked at those rules, so I cannot comment on them yet. But just modifying FP will not change the problem as I see it. Does weight of numbers count? Absolutely, as it should. But so does training, experience, equipment, and motivation. None of these are present, or they have a severely limited presence.

Look at history, a smaller, better lead, trained, and motivated armies have regularly done very well against larger numbers of lower quality troops.

I will not lie, some of this is personal. I am sick of my Veteran and Elite units losing consistently to poorer troops based an an arbitrary number and a single flat die roll. And I imagine others feel the same way.

[Dave Baughman]

I have not really looked at those rules, so I cannot comment on them yet. But just modifying FP will not change the problem as I see it. Does weight of numbers count? Absolutely, as it should. But so does training, experience, equipment, and motivation. None of these are present, or they have a severely limited presence.

Look at history, a smaller, better lead, trained, and motivated armies have regularly done very well against larger numbers of lower quality troops.

I will not lie, some of this is personal. I am sick of my Veteran and Elite units losing consistently to poorer troops based an an arbitrary number and a single flat die roll. And I imagine others feel the same way.

Well, there's two ways to approach this:

Option 1: take away vet/elite unit's FP bonuses and instead give them a bonus in simple res.

Option 2: give vet/elite units a bonus to FP but don't give them an artificial bonus in SR.

Basically, the way I see it giving them both an FP bonus and a simple rez bonus is giving the same bonus twice.

[Marlin]

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

[GreyJaeger]

I did answer..
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=353.0

I see what some of you are saying about the FP buff, but it is still nothing to actually make Veteran or Elie worthwhile. In MM, 3 Veteran Mechs vs 5 Regulars, with fairly equal BV, is an uphill battle for the Vets, as they will be outmassed. In Simres, 10 FP of Vets vs 10 FP of Regulars, what benefit did the Vets have. You really think that 2 FP is an actual benefit?

But you know what, I have said my piece, and nothing is going to be done about it. So I have a choice to make.

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

[Hugin]

Oh come on Shane

Holt is showing us since turn 20 that STAC'O'DOOOOOOOM is the most succsessive 'and if you want to purely win use this' tactic.

Does not need finesse, does not need taktical skill. All it needs is a large RP background *shrug*

I did answer..
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=353.0

I see what some of you are saying about the FP buff, but it is still nothing to actually make Veteran or Elie worthwhile. In MM, 3 Veteran Mechs vs 5 Regulars, with fairly equal BV, is an uphill battle for the Vets, as they will be outmassed. In Simres, 10 FP of Vets vs 10 FP of Regulars, what benefit did the Vets have. You really think that 2 FP is an actual benefit?

But you know what, I have said my piece, and nothing is going to be done about it. So I have a choice to make.

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

[Dave Baughman]

Part of the problem might be that people are bidding to equal FP.

If side X bids 10 (regular) heavy 'Mechs (1.75 FP), and side Y 'underbids' them with, say, 8 (elite) heavy 'Mechs, its 2.0 (after rounding) FP vs. 1.75.

Never mind the whole other argument about constantly bidding below the cutdown being non-canon, a "fair" bid of good warriors should still be equal or higher FP than a similar bid of less skilled troops. If the real skill mods were used, this would be even more pronounced.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should also say: I'm generally leery about anything that adds more potential "plusses" to simple rez rolls. The 2d6 bell curve is very steep, and as we saw with the obscene +4 intelligence mods a less-than-thoroughly thought out bonus can have radical and unexpected effects on game balance. For example, if elite units got a +2 on their SR rolls, they would be getting crit checks on 72% of their rolls and would have only a 3% chance of giving the enemy a crit chance, versus 42% and 17% respectively using the default curve structure. It gets even more horrifying if you take it a step further to +3 for Heroic (i.e. "Clan Elite" 1/2)... 83% chance of earning a crit roll, with no chance of giving one to the enemy.



On a semi-note, I'm going to be posting two polls in a few minutes. Please check them out.

I did answer..
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=353.0

I see what some of you are saying about the FP buff, but it is still nothing to actually make Veteran or Elie worthwhile. In MM, 3 Veteran Mechs vs 5 Regulars, with fairly equal BV, is an uphill battle for the Vets, as they will be outmassed. In Simres, 10 FP of Vets vs 10 FP of Regulars, what benefit did the Vets have. You really think that 2 FP is an actual benefit?

But you know what, I have said my piece, and nothing is going to be done about it. So I have a choice to make.

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

[Cannonshop]

Part of the problem might be that people are bidding to equal FP.

If side X bids 10 (regular) heavy 'Mechs (1.75 FP), and side Y 'underbids' them with, say, 8 (elite) heavy 'Mechs, its 2.0 (after rounding) FP vs. 1.75.

Never mind the whole other argument about constantly bidding below the cutdown being non-canon, a "fair" bid of good warriors should still be equal or higher FP than a similar bid of less skilled troops. If the real skill mods were used, this would be even more pronounced.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should also say: I'm generally leery about anything that adds more potential "plusses" to simple rez rolls. The 2d6 bell curve is very steep, and as we saw with the obscene +4 intelligence mods a less-than-thoroughly thought out bonus can have radical and unexpected effects on game balance. For example, if elite units got a +2 on their SR rolls, they would be getting crit checks on 72% of their rolls and would have only a 3% chance of giving the enemy a crit chance, versus 42% and 17% respectively using the default curve structure. It gets even more horrifying if you take it a step further to +3 for Heroic (i.e. "Clan Elite" 1/2)... 83% chance of earning a crit roll, with no chance of giving one to the enemy.



On a semi-note, I'm going to be posting two polls in a few minutes. Please check them out.

I did answer..
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=353.0

I see what some of you are saying about the FP buff, but it is still nothing to actually make Veteran or Elie worthwhile. In MM, 3 Veteran Mechs vs 5 Regulars, with fairly equal BV, is an uphill battle for the Vets, as they will be outmassed. In Simres, 10 FP of Vets vs 10 FP of Regulars, what benefit did the Vets have. You really think that 2 FP is an actual benefit?

But you know what, I have said my piece, and nothing is going to be done about it. So I have a choice to make.

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

Might I make a suggestion in this discussion?

Instead of a straight modifier that creates some really weird results (as Dave has noticed) how about setting up a modifier based on the difference between forces- say,  a +1 to the roll, and remove the FP enhancement so that an FP is an FP is an FP-but skill actually MATTERS.

For every difference past one (say, Elite vs. Regular) is +1 to the better-skilled unit's simpres results, but the actual FP value of the units isn't any different (though the cost to get that bonus is.)

It means the greenies will take a hell of a pounding, but you can still zerg as is the current practice-but you'll get hit with lots of pain and penalties if that's your only trick.

[Marlin]

Me no like much change. The Comms Rules were enough for me..

gotta think about it.. thinking hurts.

[GreyJaeger]

Part of the problem as I have seen it is, what is a valid bid? If I know the opponent is using 10 Regular Heavies, and I bid ten Veteran Heavies, is that an "Honorable" bid? What constitutes the cut-off?

Let us take an example here http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=668.0

My force would have been numerically outnumbered and outmassed, the only thing taking my bid over was skill, yet I have Fate calling me out on it.

This is the first time I have heard anyone say anything like a fairly even number of warriors and weight with only skill taking the bid over is a "Good Bid."

As for whether skill mods making crits more likely, how about just natural rolls being crits. I.e. A veteran unit rolls a 7. The unit has an eight for determining damage, but no crit chance. An Elite unit rolls a 10. The unit does not get either an instant win or three crit chances, but does have a 12 for determining damage. Also skill modifiers do not come into play for determining crits. The Elite unit above rolls a 7 for determining crits. The unit does not get a 9, but ony a 7 so no crit.

Part of the problem might be that people are bidding to equal FP.

If side X bids 10 (regular) heavy 'Mechs (1.75 FP), and side Y 'underbids' them with, say, 8 (elite) heavy 'Mechs, its 2.0 (after rounding) FP vs. 1.75.

Never mind the whole other argument about constantly bidding below the cutdown being non-canon, a "fair" bid of good warriors should still be equal or higher FP than a similar bid of less skilled troops. If the real skill mods were used, this would be even more pronounced.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should also say: I'm generally leery about anything that adds more potential "plusses" to simple rez rolls. The 2d6 bell curve is very steep, and as we saw with the obscene +4 intelligence mods a less-than-thoroughly thought out bonus can have radical and unexpected effects on game balance. For example, if elite units got a +2 on their SR rolls, they would be getting crit checks on 72% of their rolls and would have only a 3% chance of giving the enemy a crit chance, versus 42% and 17% respectively using the default curve structure. It gets even more horrifying if you take it a step further to +3 for Heroic (i.e. "Clan Elite" 1/2)... 83% chance of earning a crit roll, with no chance of giving one to the enemy.



On a semi-note, I'm going to be posting two polls in a few minutes. Please check them out.

I did answer..
http://intelser.org/forums/index.php?topic=353.0

I see what some of you are saying about the FP buff, but it is still nothing to actually make Veteran or Elie worthwhile. In MM, 3 Veteran Mechs vs 5 Regulars, with fairly equal BV, is an uphill battle for the Vets, as they will be outmassed. In Simres, 10 FP of Vets vs 10 FP of Regulars, what benefit did the Vets have. You really think that 2 FP is an actual benefit?

But you know what, I have said my piece, and nothing is going to be done about it. So I have a choice to make.

I covered both parts in my resume. 1 was an MM match of same FP nearly same BV with skilled troops vs unskilled. (green at that, poor suckers) Was a slugfest if you know what you are doing.

The other is pure FP.

In Simp Res, the Bonus for the skilled Troops is just only an FP addition. Where is the problem when one takes 5 Regular Mechs with an FP of 1 and you correspond in kind with 4 Elite Mechs that might have 1.5 FP?

The .5 account for the Elite Status. No one should cry foul. Even 3 Mechs might have over 1 FP in this example.

BTW, when I offered to fight our Trial out in MM, there was no response. You might have won anyway, such we had a roll and you won. Against regulars.. you might have taken more FP.. Hm.. if bidding down on the same FP, then it becomes a problem of course.. but that might just be the risk of bidding too low?

But then, with equal FP fights, there is the Breaking roll which benefits the experienced side and that is when they have a bonus..

[Marlin]

If you treat the FP as BV-conversion (which it roughly is even on ground) then you should bid more with more skill. You may cut down and gain glory or you may lose that.

I guess the Ravens would always cry foul against a Viper, so I would not concern me with that. If you play after BV and Skill mods, the better skilled side WILL have a huge or less huge advantage even with less machines. It is just natural. Only a great MMer would go to equal or less BV. And even then, he might lose.

The Equal FP might be a leftover from the old BV Bidding practices and the attached honor account system.

This is gone for several years, I think.

[Jeyar]

Is it possible to use unplanned reinforcement on a different TURN than when an attack was initiated? I ask as I have a force I didn't move to a location in the orders, but the place was attacked last turn...

[Daemonknight]

I guess the better phrasing: if combat carries over from a previous turn, can UPR be initiated before Combat Round 1 of the current turn? Because UPR says your forces have to already be engaged. It becomes a semantics question: your forces were in combat last turn, does that techniclly make them still engaged this turn?

I'd say no, it doesn't. The difference is really wether your UPR forces arrive in Combat Round 3 or 4, because they have to waste 2 Combat rounds in transit, assuming the 8-up roll is successful. Also need to balance the huge MP cost, and the loss of all RP from the hex where the reinforcing units are coming from.

So i would say that your forces won't be able to impact the fight untill Combat round 4.