Rules Discussion

[Jeyar]

Quick question off the currect track:

If one buys a replacement HPG, do we just assume it shows up in 1 or 2 (depending on distance from where it was made) turns, or do we wait until GM confirmation?

[chaosxtreme]

It moves 5 hex's a turn from your the nearest IC that YOU control.

If you don't own any IC's and arent a Secondary or better Provider


you have to work out the replacement with the Wobblies or Comstar and it has to transit at 5 hex's a turn from the Terran Hegemony (not their closest IC from the TH).

[Dave Baughman]

It moves 5 hex's a turn from your the nearest IC that YOU control.

If you don't own any IC's and arent a Secondary or better Provider


you have to work out the replacement with the Wobblies or Comstar and it has to transit at 5 hex's a turn from the Terran Hegemony (not their closest IC from the TH).

Just to clarify, all ICs currently existing in the non-Clan factions are ComStar or WOB facilities as far as I know, and could be used as a building point for a TH-made HPG. Technically, these should all be Guest ICs to clarify their nature, but for convoluted reasons rooted in the distant past the previous GM team did not allow ICs to be guest facilities.

[Marlin]

Follow up on the DP Station battle: How is Salvage of moving Infra treated? If they do damage or not is secondary for that, but likewise important.

[Fatebringer]

I sent Dave a PM about it a little earlier ago, basically i cant fathom how a moving factory can do the same damage as a 24FP ASF combat unit.

CDS has established an offensive interdiction, so CW would have to get through that before the blockade.


If moving factories can inflict damage, its going to be hell at Terra when the clans reach it, imagine ~400FP of moving infrastructure becoming basically a combat unit.

Stop giving Chaos Ideas! XP

Chaos: "I can live withut the Ontos so,... now I drop Grumman Amalgamated on Europe! Take that Terrans! Interidict ME will ya!"

[Daemonknight]

Lol. Now i need to bring Olivetti Weapons on my suicide run.

Diana Pryde does a Falcon Punch! and sends Olivetti right at Geneva.

[Dave Baughman]

Its not the moving factory that is inflicting the damage; its the small fleet of transport dropships doing the shooting - just like when an unescorted ground unit attempts to break interdiction or run a blockade it can still inflict damage that represents its transport units in action. I suppose you could say "its the movement points doing the fighting."

This, of course, is part of why I want to get rid of movement points and massively alter the movement system, but that will take time to fine tune and make fair for everyone.

[DisGruntled]

Did the research station ability to let a unit move 6 instead of 5 for non-lfb units ever go into affect?

[Holt]

Its not the moving factory that is inflicting the damage; its the small fleet of transport dropships doing the shooting - just like when an unescorted ground unit attempts to break interdiction or run a blockade it can still inflict damage that represents its transport units in action. I suppose you could say "its the movement points doing the fighting."

This, of course, is part of why I want to get rid of movement points and massively alter the movement system, but that will take time to fine tune and make fair for everyone.

A combat unit i can agree with dealing damage, they are after all a combat unit being transported by military dropships, akin to merchant marines. A military factory would be transported by regular merchants akin to cargo ships, as you pointed out being transported by Mules in the bidding thread.

I can see the merchant marines doing damage as they are trained for combat and some ships having not just defensive armament, but the cargo ship Green Marsupial doing damage? I just dont see it at all.

[Cannonshop]

Its not the moving factory that is inflicting the damage; its the small fleet of transport dropships doing the shooting - just like when an unescorted ground unit attempts to break interdiction or run a blockade it can still inflict damage that represents its transport units in action. I suppose you could say "its the movement points doing the fighting."

This, of course, is part of why I want to get rid of movement points and massively alter the movement system, but that will take time to fine tune and make fair for everyone.

A combat unit i can agree with dealing damage, they are after all a combat unit being transported by military dropships, akin to merchant marines. A military factory would be transported by regular merchants akin to cargo ships, as you pointed out being transported by Mules in the bidding thread.

I can see the merchant marines doing damage as they are trained for combat and some ships having not just defensive armament, but the cargo ship Green Marsupial doing damage? I just dont see it at all.

Unprotected Merchies in a pirate infested, war-zone universe?  Unlikely-they'd have their own integral escort just on the base assumption that they want to get paying work-and nobody in their right mind (not even Clans) would let them fly without some kind of trigger-puller riding shotgun...even in 'safe' areas (Which, given the map, the station does not exist within.)

This isn't the 21st Century where the "Pirates" are riding around on outboard-powered open motorboats near shore, the strategic situation is closer to 1939 with shipping mostly done in convoy, and even the Liberty ships carried SOME guns.

[Holt]

Liberty ship carried a 5in gun aft, 40mm AA gun fore and about 6 50cals, and in case you say wiki is a hell of a drug; i am sitting less than 100 feet from the Jerimiah O'Brien. Though they had certain defensive arms, they would do literally nothing against a surface ship.

[Dave Baughman]

I should point out too that the tables for break interdiction and blockade running are already skewed against the runner. Break Interdiction is particularly heinous in that the breaker often deals 0% damage, but blockade running isn't all that fun either.

At the core of the issue though, is that are the rules are written right now there's a certain level of abstration - 1 FP is 1 FP is 1 FP, regardless of whether its 15000 FP of aero, the magical "Tech 2 medium 'mech company" that has the same FP regardless of its composition, or a dozen mixed cargo ships, they pretty much behave the same (except the previously-discussed inability of abstract transports to initiate combat).

Does it get goofy and fall apart when you look at it too closely? Absolutely! I will be the first one to line up and criticize the shortcomings of the current movement system, but at the same time I have to stick by it and rule on it consistently until we get something better. If there's one lesson we can learn from some of the problems we've had in the last 40 turns, the solution isn't to impose a "case law" style rules set where every rule has dozens of sometimes-contradictory exceptions to make things 'more realistic.' Better to accept some of the quirks with a grain of salt in the name of having a properly functioning rules set - and look to the future to find a comprehensive solution (which the GM team is exploring) - then the try and fix a perceived problem like this piecemeal and break things even worse.

Anyway, I'll cut off the sermon before it gets too long-winded, but the short version is:

• Yes, the GM team is aware that when you actually try to stat out infrastructure convoys they look kind of silly, either consisting of hundreds of transports, or including built-in convoy escorts that would seem to contradict the way they are fluffed as not being escorted.
• The GM team will be the first to confirm that this is the result of the level of abstraction in the rules and is not literally true - if anything, CS's vision of liberty ships escorted by jeep carriers is probably pretty close to the 'fluff reality' if we're going to go that way.
• The GM team feels obliged to point out that the inherent weakness of abstract transports vs. normal aero units is already reflected in the way the break interdiction and blockade running charts penalize the runner's damage output.
• The GM team is currently working on a comprehensive solution to the whole problem of abstract movement which should address the vast majority of the goofiness, but it will not be ready for a while since it involves a lot of stuff that could make the rules blow up if we do it wrong.

[Cannonshop]

One turn before the move is to be executed, the facility must be taken offline for packing. The following turn it is removed from the map and becomes a transported unit with FP equal to its RP construction cost. These transport units may not initiate combat but they may be attacked. Infrastructure transport units move per the normal rules.

Seems to me, that the escorts are accounted for-it can't initiate attacks (Which fits-you don't send your security team out to fight offensively with something that valuable), and it's not very good at defending itself (which fits the Blockade rules), but it is armed. (Has an FP value equal to the construction RP spent).  Blockade running is arguably NOT an offensive manuever provided you're running it to run the hell away-which WOULD be what you would use your security team for.

[Marlin]

Will there be a possibility to gain PFs later too?

I would have a planet in mind where I would build a new War School, like the CGuards did on Tuk.. Just they got a PF for that.

Not to mention very much smaller powers.

[Fatebringer]

I'm trying to make sure I have my Terrorism rules correct because Tamar is no longer contested...but they seem to be missing from the rules now...