Rules Discussion

[Fatebringer]

Something like a Yardship SHOULD be hella expensive! I do agree that increasing it's capacity would justify the cost of such a ship.

Comparitively speaking, a Shipyard costs 48 RP and for the same cost as a New Model Yardships, you can get about 5 of them. Not only would you have 5 times the production ability, you would also be generating 5 RP a turn, but on the other side, the Yarship fills a role that nothing else can do. Mobile Production.

For example, the Incense (Cameron) is repairable but in a Periphery hex. You can't move a SY to that hex without first creating a Space Station, and once the Space Station is complete, you really won't need it there and I don't think they're one of the things you can move, can you?

[Dave Baughman]

With regard to the comment about the pricing change on the "Shipyard component" of the Yardship, right now the Yardships' abilities are crippled compared to the equivalent "real shipyard" - no RP production, less output capacity.

The proposed rule would eliminate this "nerf" on the YardShips and make them function identically to a normaly Shipyard - except its wrapped up inside a WarShip.

[chaosxtreme]

I for one support the FWL having a means to repair our damaged ship's until we can get Yardship tech off someones dead body...I mean negotiate a tech trade.

Im looking at you Star Adders.

[chaosxtreme]

By the way I have been wondering are there any actual economic draw backs to individual hex's being interdicted?

I mean you get enough of them and technically they should bork your Factions entire RP.

[DisGruntled]

I for one support the FWL having a means to repair our damaged ship's until we can get Yardship tech off someones dead body...I mean negotiate a tech trade.

Im looking at you Star Adders.

Let me throw some ideas around with the crew   We been busy playing with the SAC, CDS, and a few others.

[Parmenion]

I've often thought the ruling in regards Yardships was bizarre.  Why was it mandatory to attach all the bits and pieces to a Yardship to make it hideously expensive, when no other Warship has the same imposition imposed upon it.

For my mind, factions should be able to make their respective yardships as bare-boned as they want them to be.  If they construct them with minimal defences, then they wear the risk like any other Warship.

OK, random thought:


Yardship rules

1. Delete all YardShip Rules.
2. Replace with:

• MF and SY hex improvements may be build as Mobile or LFB mobile units. Mobile factories still need a turn to pack or unpack between moves, but may follow Mobile movement rules for MP costs.
• A Yardship is a WarShip "wrapped" around a Mobile SY. A Faslane is "half" an SY (24 RP cost, 1.5 FP production per turn, 0.5 RP revenue when operating as a "half SY"), whereas a Newgrange is a "whole" SY (48 RP cost, etc etc etc).
• The Cost of a YardShip is the FP cost of (the underlying unit + any supporting units + the shipyard), modified by the movement class cost modifier.
• End of rules.

Does this sound like a more simple and straightforward way to handle Yardships? Or am I missing something that would be pertinent to game balance.

Probably worth noting, this would make YardShips somewhat more expensive to construct, but honestly I'm starting to suspect that is in its self an imbalance within the current rule.

[chaosxtreme]

Because Shipyards are expensive.

If Yardships are as cheap as their construction cost why would I EVER build Shipyards?

I'mean other then the base # of shipyards to start cranking out Yardships.

I've often thought the ruling in regards Yardships was bizarre.  Why was it mandatory to attach all the bits and pieces to a Yardship to make it hideously expensive, when no other Warship has the same imposition imposed upon it.

For my mind, factions should be able to make their respective yardships as bare-boned as they want them to be.  If they construct them with minimal defences, then they wear the risk like any other Warship.

OK, random thought:


Yardship rules

1. Delete all YardShip Rules.
2. Replace with:

• MF and SY hex improvements may be build as Mobile or LFB mobile units. Mobile factories still need a turn to pack or unpack between moves, but may follow Mobile movement rules for MP costs.
• A Yardship is a WarShip "wrapped" around a Mobile SY. A Faslane is "half" an SY (24 RP cost, 1.5 FP production per turn, 0.5 RP revenue when operating as a "half SY"), whereas a Newgrange is a "whole" SY (48 RP cost, etc etc etc).
• The Cost of a YardShip is the FP cost of (the underlying unit + any supporting units + the shipyard), modified by the movement class cost modifier.
• End of rules.

Does this sound like a more simple and straightforward way to handle Yardships? Or am I missing something that would be pertinent to game balance.

Probably worth noting, this would make YardShips somewhat more expensive to construct, but honestly I'm starting to suspect that is in its self an imbalance within the current rule.

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, the rules as they are proposed to be stand to make the SY in the yardship cost six times what a stationary one costs, plus the cost of the millitary components.  If it was me, I'd rather have six stationary SY and some millitary components, but perhaps that's just me.

I think the big qustion is, is that really how much they should be worth?  Do they really offer six times the benifit of a stationary yard?  Or is it more?  Or is it less?

I think that the rule fits the universe in the sense that Yarships are giant ass ships that rightly ought to be ludacrisly expensive, and do provide a very nice little bonus.  Getting some RP prodution from them, as the new rules alow, is some nice little icing on an already pretty tasty cake.  They do offer something that you can't get any other way, after all, so people will still pay for them.  But very seldom, which I think fits their in universe role.

[Cannonshop]

Well, the rules as they are proposed to be stand to make the SY in the yardship cost six times what a stationary one costs, plus the cost of the millitary components.  If it was me, I'd rather have six stationary SY and some millitary components, but perhaps that's just me.

I think the big qustion is, is that really how much they should be worth?  Do they really offer six times the benifit of a stationary yard?  Or is it more?  Or is it less?

I think that the rule fits the universe in the sense that Yarships are giant ass ships that rightly ought to be ludacrisly expensive, and do provide a very nice little bonus.  Getting some RP prodution from them, as the new rules alow, is some nice little icing on an already pretty tasty cake.  They do offer something that you can't get any other way, after all, so people will still pay for them.  But very seldom, which I think fits their in universe role.

Mobility is its own reward-a Yardship can be moved-and in a state that can afford one, it's damn near impossible to keep track of if the owner/operator doesn't want you to know where it is-after all, the Yardship (unlike a SY) doesn't show up on the map. In theory, therefore, it's up to six times as survivable as a fixed yard.  It's also deployable-once you've secured a situation like, say, the Somerset/Addergrad fight, but in a place without a yard present, you can move Yardships in to salvage the wrecks instead of having to leave them there until a yard can be completed.

[Daemonknight]

owner/operator doesn't want you to know where it is-after all, the Yardship (unlike a SY) doesn't show up on the map. In theory, therefore, it's up to six times as survivable as a fixed yard

It can be found by launching a Locate Formation mission to discover its location. Don't forget, you don't techniclly know everything IC thats on the map: the Clans don't know the exact number of shipyards over Donegal, or the number of MFs on Hesperus II, but I could go look at it on the map. So that doesn't really factor in: a yardship is just as protected from view as a shipyard, except that a shipyard would require actual military forces to jump in system, and then be subjected to interception and destruction, whereas the Locate mission can be completed without the Yardship owner's having ever known that you've drawn a target on it's hull. So in some sense, its actually a little bit less secure.

[Jeyar]

I might as well publicly post this here - I'm not trying to pull something fast, I AM trying to use something that I have as a faction, and make it useful.

Presently I have the "Sparta" habitat with 2 items on it, a MF and a SY. It also has some rules on it - the oldest I won't go into, but I really wish I hadn't asked for updating that one now days . As of February this year:

A) Pay 6 and it will gain a point of FP.
B) It can't Salvage Warships.
C) It can't move and repair (which when you couple that with the fact that there isn't anything in the game other than warships that you can repair really makes me confused).
D) Every time I move the system, it becomes immobilized on an 11+, and a GM must be the one to roll it.
E) It is unique - I can't make more of them.

Now some know I REALLY want more PF's - and have for multiple years. Have posted for it, paid RP and used orders to get them - all this LONG before PF's became extra useful last turn. This also in spite of the TC only not having more PF as "we had enough already" and "they don't matter" when we went to the "present" PF form. The idea was that if I put 3 things on Sparta and send it out of TC space, I get a PF. However I haven't ever gotten confirmation even this will work for that PF.

However with these rules we have:
1)An exception to the standard rules.
2)Something not too useful for all it's cost.
3)Something I am not sure will work for even what I want.

So what I'd like to do is find out with the new rules, what can I do that would:
Alpha) Get rid of that scary "you get stuck" possibility rule.
Beta) Allow the thing to fix warships (hey – this would be a great add-on).
Gamma) Get confirmation that with one more add-on (and just what it needs to be) and jumping and resting outside TC space, I finally get another PF.

[Pink_Knight]

So you're trying to remove all of it's restrictions, and give it extra functionality than it already has. How does that make sense?

[Dave Baughman]

I might as well publicly post this here - I'm not trying to pull something fast, I AM trying to use something that I have as a faction, and make it useful.

Presently I have the "Sparta" habitat with 2 items on it, a MF and a SY. It also has some rules on it - the oldest I won't go into, but I really wish I hadn't asked for updating that one now days . As of February this year:

A) Pay 6 and it will gain a point of FP.
B) It can't Salvage Warships.
C) It can't move and repair (which when you couple that with the fact that there isn't anything in the game other than warships that you can repair really makes me confused).
D) Every time I move the system, it becomes immobilized on an 11+, and a GM must be the one to roll it.
E) It is unique - I can't make more of them.

Now some know I REALLY want more PF's - and have for multiple years. Have posted for it, paid RP and used orders to get them - all this LONG before PF's became extra useful last turn. This also in spite of the TC only not having more PF as "we had enough already" and "they don't matter" when we went to the "present" PF form. The idea was that if I put 3 things on Sparta and send it out of TC space, I get a PF. However I haven't ever gotten confirmation even this will work for that PF.

However with these rules we have:
1)An exception to the standard rules.
2)Something not too useful for all it's cost.
3)Something I am not sure will work for even what I want.

So what I'd like to do is find out with the new rules, what can I do that would:
Alpha) Get rid of that scary "you get stuck" possibility rule.
Beta) Allow the thing to fix warships (hey – this would be a great add-on).
Gamma) Get confirmation that with one more add-on (and just what it needs to be) and jumping and resting outside TC space, I finally get another PF.

Jeyar, I have two questions about Sparta:

1) Which GM came up with the special rule you posted above? I have been researching this for a while as you know and I still have not been able to find anything in my records about the rather restrictive mobile habitat rules you were given. I'm personally inclined to move away from having faction-specific rules, especially complicated ones like this, but I would like to know the background of where this came from.

2) How much did you pay for the hex improvements associated with this habitat?

If you paid the normal price (24 and 48 respectively), then I have an easy solution. If not, I will have to be a bit more "nuanced," but either way we will be putting an end to the current special rule since there is no reason for this to have its own unique rule.

[Dave Baughman]

KK, for continuity sake, Please update the following.

Sudeten (2115)

1 SY (Falcon)
11 GSY (Raven)

All at the Sudeten side of the hex.

Unless the Falcons have new Shipyards, these are the only Shipyards on this Hex.

Yeah ok...Im just kicking this to Josh and Dave because this whole 2115 hex thing keeps getting changed or modified a lot. I don't think its intentional but I'd rather just get a GM ruling of what is where because Im getting a little tired of changing it this many times a turn when the hex itself hasn't changed in rl months.

Again I dont think anyone's being malicious its just a lot of people have different views on what was agreed upon and I want a final ruling on what is.

Hey improvements are by the Hex. It does not matter where in the hex they are located.

Technically, hexes should also only have one color. This is something we've been lenient on and will continue to turn a blind eye to for now because it makes the map easier to read, but if it becomes an ongoing problem we'll have to crack down and change all the shared hexes to some sort of "contested" color.

Since we are going to keep allowing multi-color hexes for now - for the purpose of determining what is and isn't a guest facility - the Sudeten hex should be considered a Jade Falcon hex (since in the RP all of the hex improvements are at Sudeten). In other words, any hex improvements that are not owned by the Jade Falcons (i.e. Snow Raven SYs) should be marked as guest facilities.

[Fatebringer]

Even the 2 MF's I created ON Blair Athol?