[Combat Ops] Turn 9 - 1910 Dark Nebula

[Fatebringer]

CJF Crit Chance

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 4, total 10[/blockquote]

[Fatebringer]

Crit 1

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 2, total 5[/blockquote]

Crit 2

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 5, total 8[/blockquote]

[Fatebringer]

5 Capture a high-value prisoner – automatically win operational initiative for the next Operational
Round.

8 Military VIP, if present, gains a level. If no Military VIP is present, instead check for unit skill
improvement using the training rules.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]

[tassa_kay]

Summary:

CHH inflicts 10% of 43 FP [4 FP] to CJF, leaving CJF at 28 FP.

CJF inflicts 25% of 32 FP [8 FP] to CHH, leaving CHH at 35 FP.

CJF automatically wins operation initiative for the next operational round.

[Fatebringer]

It's a little different because of the skill improvement.

The "Stalwart Tercel" Trinary, Omega Solhama Cluster goes from Regular to Veteran: 32 -> 44 FP

CHH inflicts 10% of 43 FP [4 FP] to CJF, leaving CJF at 40 FP.
CJF inflicts 25% of 44 FP [11 FP] to CHH, leaving CHH at 32 FP.

CJF automatically wins operation initiative for the OP6.

The following is pertinent only if the Hell's Horse do not accept the outcome of the trial and switch to invasion.

CJF earns a Decisive Victory
Victory Points
CHH: 0
CJF: 3

[tassa_kay]

OOC:  Two things.  Number one... wow.  A 6 FP jump up in the middle of a fight?  That seems a little strange to me.  Number two... I was on invasion orders to begin with, when did I get *off* them, exactly? 

Parm, please get in here and deal with this, because this combat system is pissing me off severely. 

[Fatebringer]

Did you not declare the trial?

[Parmenion]

Mmmmm... having played a lot of these games, I can't recall where the positive benefits of a fight (ie... an increase in experience rating) were added in the middle of a fight.  

I can understand if a ASF unit gained experience in space, and then applied the added FP to a ground support engagement three days later, but to have the experience upgraded applied in the middle of a battle seems odd.

Might I suggest a pause to allow things to settle, as I would like to explore the above further.

[tassa_kay]

I didn't see anything in the rules about there being a difference between a Clan Trial and an Invasion.  That was posted because I thought that's what one was supposed to post in a Clan-on-Clan fight.  I *definitely* wasn't aware that it changed my orders completely!  

Alright, washing my hands of this one.  Parm, Fate, deal with this how you will.  To say that I dislike the FP3090 combat system is really being kind at this point, and I'm getting irritated with having to run on three browser windows just to simres a fight.  Figure it out.

[Fatebringer]

I have no problem waiting for clarification from Dave. I've been learning the rules as I go too. Only from going thru many threads last turn have I even gotten this point in my understandings of the rules. Either way, the operational round is over and if it is applies before (3-8) or after the combat (3-11), the result is still a decisive victory for doing 50% more damage than the opposition.

I have been using the guidance of the FGC applications of Critical Events. Some events such as the other crit  the falcons rolled specifically state it takes effect the following turn. However, I have been applying this crit evenly to all units that have gotten it thru combat during the Combat turn before resolution takes place.

I've always played it off as Tactical insight that makes the commander and his unit, better. I know I've had those days when I was just on

But please clarify, Did the Horsed did go with the Trial? If they did, then the combat should be over. If they didn't, then this is a declaration of War against the Falcons.

[tassa_kay]

It's up to you, Parm.  I'm taking a big step back from this thread, because there's nothing "simple" about "simple resolution" here, and I feel that I'm being taken advantage of to a degree because I don't know the rules that well.

Had I know that these kinds of things lurked in the rules (Trials only being one round of simres, and basically SOL if you make one bad roll), I would've initiated a "Trial" with the entirety of the forces we brought along for this, and would've won even WITH that bad roll.

Again, Parm, this one's yours.  I'm done here.

[tassa_kay]

So given Dave's ruling here, does anything even change?  As far as I can tell, all it does is just bump up our FP from 32 to 35 (to reflect less damage inflicted, as this would happen before the CJF increase in skill level) and leaves CJF ending FP exactly the same.

Fate, please be more thorough next time in how the Clan Trial system works, because I'm telling you right now, I feel like you took gross advantage of my ignorance in this instance.  Had I had a CLUE that it would be a one-and-done roll-off, instead of the multiple-rounds combat that I was assuming that it would be (I didn't see anything that said otherwise) I wouldn't have bothered bidding down whatsoever. 

So Parm's gonna come in and finish this when he gets a chance, and I'm just going to recommend that we execute Withdrawal, even though we partially own the hex and don't have to go anywhere.  And we'll try this ridiculousness again next turn, I guess.

[Fatebringer]

CHH inflicts 10% of 43 FP [4 FP] to CJF, leaving CJF at 28 FP.
CJF inflicts 25% of 32 FP [8 FP] to CHH, leaving CHH at 35 FP.

CJF automatically wins operation initiative for the OP6.

The "Stalwart Tercel" Trinary, Omega Solhama Cluster goes from Regular to Veteran: 28 -> 39 FP

CJF earns a Decisive Victory
Victory Points
CHH: 0
CJF: 3

[Daemonknight]

I apologize for not watching this one closer, i've been swamped with work and being sick.


There are no hard and fast rules for what a Clan Trial actually constitutes in Flashpoint. Techniclly, a Trial would be a series of Battle orders untill one side is either destroyed or is offered(and accepts) Hegira. So Tassa is both right and wrong in his definition of a Trial: the Engagement Intensitities(Trial, Incursion, Raid) do not denote actual combat variations, so much as preparation. A prepared Invasion Intensity, would be taking a world with the supply lines to draw the fighting out for extended periods of time. An Incursion would be the forces bringing with them as many supplies as their able to, with the intention of leaving once supplies run out. Raids would be a quick get in, do the fight, and get out level of prep.

theoreticlly, any of these Intensities could have Trials under them, depending on the level of opposition expect. Because this is a Trial of Possession for the world, a Raid isn't appropriate because thats only EVER a single round of combat: Raid would be good for a ToP for supplies or something, when theres no reason to stay after an initial small engagement.

Incursions are for as long as the combatants both have forces willing to engage, but the attacker cannot forcibly conquor the planet being attacked, making Incursion the ideal intensity for a Trial.

Invasion works well if you doubt the defender's honor and expect your're going to have to force the issue, but it does force you to lose a point of Public Support unless you are in a declared war with the opponenet(the only declared war atm I'm aware of is the DC/CC vs FS/RA), or use the Manufactured Casus Belli project.


That being said, Tassa, don't feel taken advantage of, because I think Fate is suffering bleed thru from the FGC game where Trials generally ARE a single roll. So, your options are to accept Hegira from the Falcons, or to continue fighting. Now, the winner doesn't HAVE to offer Hegira at the end of each operational round- meaning that if someone loses and wants to retreat, but isn't given Hegira, they need to win Initiative to attempt an escape under fire.

[tassa_kay]

Invasion works well if you doubt the defender's honor and expect your're going to have to force the issue, but it does force you to lose a point of Public Support unless you are in a declared war with the opponenet(the only declared war atm I'm aware of is the DC/CC vs FS/RA), or use the Manufactured Casus Belli project.

This right here is exactly what I was trying to get at.  I came in on Invasion orders for a reason, after all.  And we did pay the cost (and succeeded in the project roll) to get the Manufactured Casus Belli to cover this situation.  We'd never have wasted the resources if we weren't going to be getting use out of this, and the situation as it was explained by Fate makes this project a total waste of time and money.

That being said, Tassa, don't feel taken advantage of, because I think Fate is suffering bleed thru from the FGC game where Trials generally ARE a single roll.

Not any Trial I've ever fought.  Just to cite a recent example, the Spirits' Trial of Possession against the Wolves on Strana Mechty, in which NVA and I fought multiple rounds of simres until the Trial was over.  Trials are generally over when one side is wiped out or withdraws.

So, your options are to accept Hegira from the Falcons, or to continue fighting. Now, the winner doesn't HAVE to offer Hegira at the end of each operational round- meaning that if someone loses and wants to retreat, but isn't given Hegira, they need to win Initiative to attempt an escape under fire.

This makes sense to me, and I'd be happy to continue on because, as things stand now, it's 39 FP on the Falcons' side and 35 FP on the Horses' side, and I still have a LOT of additional forces to draw upon if I want to "call in bid-away forces".  Which, according to Clan law, I can most certainly do.  Is there a provision for that?

Also, Fate, I apologize for my harshness here.  These rules, even for simple resolution, are a LOT more complicated than the FGC, and it just felt like I was being screwed over by your interpretation of those rules, and neither of us being all that aware of how they're supposed to work.  It's damned frustrating, and this was my very first time out... and it hasn't encouraged me to want to do this again whatsoever.

So where do we go from here, boys?