[RP] Turn 39, HW2538 Strana Mechty - Trial of Refusal(Clan Camel)

[Daemonknight]

((OOC:  I believe we have made a mistake here... the laws/rules concerning Trials of Refusal state that the odds are determined by the ratio of the votes. So, Clan law would state that the Vipers MUST fight at 3:10 odds, because those are the odds they are trying to overturn. The current bidding that is taking place is reducing the ratio, which i believe is an incorrect to do this. Instead, here is what i am thinking.


CJF has stated they will defend the vote, and post the force composition because they were the first Clan to bid in defense of the vote. The other Clans, instead of bidding less force(and thus reducing the ratio), would simply be stating that their forces should be included.
So right now, instead of the the Diamond Shark bid of 7.25FP, the Jade Falcons, Wolves and Diamond Sharks would equally split the 9.25FP amongs themselves to defend the vote.  As there are 3 Clans, and 9.25FP to be split, that would mean each Clan would contribute 3FP worth of troops, with the last .25 going to one of them(CJF would put forth that they DID step foreward first.

Obviously, the equal split could is just a start, the Clans involved would discuss the exact split amongst themselves.


Do people agree with this? It just doesnt make sense that the Vipers would benefit from multiple Clans wishing to participate. Instead, they would be faced with a coalition of Clans arrayed against them(just like in the voting itself).

Also, as a side note, I am going to put a time limit on this, because this is taking a really long time. the GC has other things on their plate i am sure.

[Daemonknight]

ilKhan Diana Pryde stood to address the Grand Council.

"Khans, this matter must be resolved as quickly as possible. All Clans wishing to defend the vote result against the Vipers in the Trial of Refusal must put themselves foreward by the end of this week. Once the deadline has passed, all Clans involved will have a discussion between themselves about force composition and distribution to last not longer than 1 standard week. The Trial itself will commence when units involved are finished with active combat operations.

Khan Zalman, you are allowed to choose the world and location the Trial is to take place. I would suggest someplace deep within the OZ to prevent any interuptions."


((OOC:
Deadlines: All Clans wishing to participate must make it clear by midnight Eastern Standard on Friday the 21st. By midnight EST on Friday the 28th, there must be a consensus as to who is deploying what forces, and which Clan will take command of the fight, and will be handled via PM, then posted to the GC thread. (i assume this will be done via MM, if not, the leader makes the SimRes rolls.)

[GreyJaeger]

 *OOC-Edit- Removed IC post due to misunderstanding of previous post.

[Iron Mongoose]

Amy Lynn (in combat atire, broadcasting from the field): "Self serving as this will doubtless seem, I would propose that the ilKhan is filling her positition to a T.  As the innitatior for this motion, she has a responcibility to see that it is defended to her satisfaction.  As the war leader of the Clans, she as the right to command and oversee millitary actions, upto and including trials such as these.  And as the chair of this council, she has the right to impose contraints of time on its proceedings.

"Unless of course you challange these rights, as you could if you wished? After all, while the sitting ilKhan has lead the Clans in the Inner Sphere to many great victories, your Clan has sat out of action and failed to answer her call, going so far as to declare [assuming that comunication over PM was intended to be IC; I'll remove this if not] that because of your own falure to reclaim your homeworld from pittiful bandits and the falure of other Clans to be at your beck and call, that you would be unable to answer the Call for months more.  Why should you want to see the right of the Clan Warleader to lead be alowed to contunue when you are so unwilling to follow?  Why should you want a fast process when you seem to intent on being obstructionest about even the simplest if matters?

"But, if you wish to launch another trial, then so much the better; perhaps if your stalling can push this next one back enough, I will be free to kill you myself.  As it stands a small number of Camels are able ot take part in the trial, and we will be in contact with the other intrested Clans on the matter."

[JediBear]

((OOC:  I believe we have made a mistake here... the laws/rules concerning Trials of Refusal state that the odds are determined by the ratio of the votes.

(OOC: No, actually, that serves as a maximum. The votes' defenders bid down from those initially high odds. ToRs therefore sometimes succeed when they shouldn't just because other Grand Council members bid poorly. This is, of course, a weakness in the system.)

[Daemonknight]

((OOC: uhm, i dont understand where you are going with Zalman. Diana made zero mention of altering the bidding structure, she simply put a time limit on the Clans deciding who was defending the vote.

the discussion about how the bidding works, if you'll look at the top, is an out-of-character discussion about if we had done things wrong or not. I see that its not, so it suppose that it is good i didnt have Diana say anything about it.

In this case, i think you've accidently mixed an OOC post asking a question with a IC post trying to accomplish something somewhat different. The purpose of diana's ultimatium is to get the GC away from the Trial that cant be fought for the moment anyways, and on to other things. So far, despite some serious setbacks, there has been no discussion what soever about the war effort.

And fyi, while i know that the previous ilKhan had a vote to be unseated, i never saw the bidding that preceeded the fight.))

[GreyJaeger]

*OOC-

CJF has stated they will defend the vote, and post the force composition because they were the first Clan to bid in defense of the vote. The other Clans, instead of bidding less force(and thus reducing the ratio), would simply be stating that their forces should be included.
So right now, instead of the the Diamond Shark bid of 7.25FP, the Jade Falcons, Wolves and Diamond Sharks would equally split the 9.25FP amongs themselves to defend the vote.  As there are 3 Clans, and 9.25FP to be split, that would mean each Clan would contribute 3FP worth of troops, with the last .25 going to one of them(CJF would put forth that they DID step foreward first.

Obviously, the equal split could is just a start, the Clans involved would discuss the exact split amongst themselves.


Do people agree with this? It just doesnt make sense that the Vipers would benefit from multiple Clans wishing to participate. Instead, they would be faced with a coalition of Clans arrayed against them(just like in the voting itself).

That is where I was going with it. You did try to change the structure.

[GreyJaeger]

((OOC: uhm, i dont understand where you are going with Zalman. Diana made zero mention of altering the bidding structure, she simply put a time limit on the Clans deciding who was defending the vote.

the discussion about how the bidding works, if you'll look at the top, is an out-of-character discussion about if we had done things wrong or not. I see that its not, so it suppose that it is good i didnt have Diana say anything about it.

In this case, i think you've accidently mixed an OOC post asking a question with a IC post trying to accomplish something somewhat different. The purpose of diana's ultimatium is to get the GC away from the Trial that cant be fought for the moment anyways, and on to other things. So far, despite some serious setbacks, there has been no discussion what soever about the war effort.

And fyi, while i know that the previous ilKhan had a vote to be unseated, i never saw the bidding that preceeded the fight.))

If that is the case, I apologize..It is Kinda hard to see what is OOC and what is IC in your post.

[Daemonknight]

the entire thing was supposed to be OOC. it was long because i was trying to explain my position.

[Tan]

[OOC]

From The Clans, Warriors of Kerensky page 44, 'Trial of Refusal'

"In a Trial of Refusal, the refusing party declares what forces he or she will use to challenge the decision. The opposing side then declares what forces will uphold the verdict, up to the ratio of the decision. For example, if someone challenges a decision that passed two votes to ten (a ratio of one to five), the defenders may deploy up to five times as many troops (in Points rather than individual warriors) as the attackers. However, in practice, bidding among the defenders for the honor of upholding the decision usually reduces this ratio in the challenger's favor."

This is the canon information, but it's worth bearing David Baughman's post in the OOC thread in mind as well.

[Daemonknight]

OOC: can i sugest that since Zalman's remarks were based off an OOC post mistakenly taken as IC, that the Zalman and subsequent posts are considered null and void? If Grey had know that my post was entirely OOC, Zalman wouldn't have had cause to make the statements he did. I blame myself for not making it clear the entire post was OOC, and for not having sufficent knowlage of Clan law(i was working off of what i remember from the Trial of Refusal concerning Aiden Pryde's claim to a bloodname, where he, Johanna, and Ter Roshak fought similar odds because of the 3:10 vote ratio). I thought it was static, so i apologize for screwing up and making an incident of it.

However, Diana's timeline for determining the forces to be used in the Trial still stands, if someone wishes to make any comments about that, feel free, as that was intended as IC.

IC:

Khan Allison Sonoma puts forth a motion that all Clans that have bid to be included, as they all wish to see the Camels be given a chance. This minimizes the actual damage to individual Clan combat units, and the Clans wishing to participate can all gain equal honor by working together for the good of the Clans as a whole.

[Tan]

saKhan Brett Andrews: 'Minimize damage'? 'Good of the Clans'? What is this drivel? I am disappointed Falcon. For all that is rotten with your Clan you had at least in the past kept up some semblance of bluster and pluck in your addresses to the Council. I wonder, is it any coincidence that this motion comes only as the cutdown looms in the current bidding? If you do not like the odds then withdraw and leave the bidding to those Warriors who still have some heart. No true Warrior would shame themselves by abandoning a winning bid just so that they could minimize damage to themselves.

[Daemonknight]

((OOC: Falcons dont hold the winning bid fyi))

[Tan]

OOC: He knows. He's not referring to the Falcons but to the other Clans bidding.

[Daemonknight]

Khan Allison Sonoma
"Must i remind the Viper saKhan that the Clans are at war with the Terran Hegemony? Atleast some of us are anyways, as opposed to wasting themselves to see a rival fall into oblivion instead of regain their former strength. The minimizing of damage, might i remind you, has always been one of the cornerstones of the Clans, hence the bidding process' existence, or have you forgotten? Have the Vipers forgotten that the minimal use of force and resources is not only the honorable path but the most practical? Especially now when we face a force with such vastly superior numbers? Or would you prefer that the Clans spend the totality of their forces in Trials against each other and ignore the external threat that is a danger to us all?"