OOC Thread

[Fatebringer]

I understand being able to forward your production to a place. For the Clans it's a necessity. For the IS, I don't know if it's the norm, but I remember being told as the FS that I had to spend MP to move parts, so I did. As the Ravens it didn't matter, I had the MP to do anything I want and still sell thousands of MP to others

But once you declare something is built somewhere, it should be there. On what part of the turn, this unit comes "Into existance" is on the GM. I propose that the unit is created at the start of the round. The orders state that it is done if "Phase one", but instead of stating the unit is not there, or that it poofs out of existance, how about allowing new unit to "Defend Only" until the end of the turn? Just an idea.

[Deathrider6]

Alright folks...here is my take as a PLAYER this is not necessarily going to be my ruling but it will probably have a major effect on said ruling.

  Example : Skye had a Fox building at Donegal (hex 1720) (it was started in Turn 41 completes turn 45 is active turn 46). According to how I interpreted the rule as a player I was using all of my SY capacity to build that single fox with attendant DS/ASF so it cost me 25 RP for the FOx then another 40 for the ASF and droppers. I had paid for everything. In turn 45 Donegal was lost to the CLP. So I lost all of that production since the unit was to be present there. According to how the system works I could have had that unit appear at Skye. In hind sight I probably should have done just that.

  The issue I am seeing here is timing this game is an abstarction of large scale interstellar combat. As a player I had no issue with the above example I took a risk building that FOx at Donegal because I needed it close to the front. Factions who have exposed infra get the short end of the stick since they lose options on where to deploy thier forces. Small factions do not have a lot of options and have this issue as well. The rules allow for production  to be focused on any hex where there is an MF or SY, That is still reasonable. I feel that the rules as written work fairly well if they are not abused.

  As it is I lose any capacity on a world when it changes hands and any new construction. Is it fair maybe not does it save paper work definately. Now it would make sense if we tracked percentages complete etc. etc. for units under construction to be added to the defense but who really wants to track 60ths of a unit? I sure don't just because I spend enough time looking at spread sheets and I'm sure that factions with fat bank rolls would hate having to have thier math double checked it would slow things down for combat resolution and we have enough issues with that already...(more)

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, if you want to argue the hard rules: 1) Construction Rules in the second rules reply explicitly state that the hex where the unit is to be built must be stated in advance.  But more over 2) the following post under GM rules gives GMs discression to alter the rules to suit any on going RP as needed, giving a rules structure that does demonstrate the primacy of RP over rules.  

That said, refrencing that second point, for an all out attack on a faction's capitol world by an implacable enemy know to have subjigated allies in the recent past may be specal enough to alow a half built unit to join the fray.  That is a case where the rules are designed to let RP drive rules.  

[Deathrider6]

I also see the other side of the coin. Construction is not considered movement if it was large factions obviously would have the advatage of nice deep MP pools while smaller factions would have to choose carefully. I have seen the "Pearl Harbor effect" of large forces appearing in a hex that a faction was about to hit due to construction. Having the shiny new unit is a good thing. There are several ways I can rule on this and regardless of how I rule I will have at least one person who will not be happy. I personnaly like the rules how they are but with all the discussion over where/what happens to production I am forced to make a ruling. That will be placed in it's own topic and stickied once complete.

[Deathrider6]

Well, if you want to argue the hard rules: 1) Construction Rules in the second rules reply explicitly state that the hex where the unit is to be built must be stated in advance.  But more over 2) the following post under GM rules gives GMs discression to alter the rules to suit any on going RP as needed, giving a rules structure that does demonstrate the primacy of RP over rules.  

That said, refrencing that second point, for an all out attack on a faction's capitol world by an implacable enemy know to have subjigated allies in the recent past may be specal enough to alow a half built unit to join the fray.  That is a case where the rules are designed to let RP drive rules.  

Good point IM very good point.

[Fatebringer]

Construction is not considered movement if it was large factions obviously would have the advatage of nice deep MP pools while smaller factions would have to choose carefully

As the Fed Suns, I never had enough MP Their Navy was decemated and their Army was huge and Transported.

[rant]When we were debating the role of Recharge stations before, there was no explaination for the HUGE costs for the faciltiy. I mean, it's the most expensive type of infrastructure and yes, you do get a full RP from it, but when you think about a recharge station you think about movement and what the hell are you going to do with only 5 MP? Move 1 FP - 5 Hexes? Who'se going to invest in that for anything other then Role-Playing when you can make MF's and SY's that actually do something for you.

There are plenty of ways to change the lack of effectiveness of these station, extending the movement of a friendly unit that moves thru the Hex by 1 (2 for LF Mobile), upping the amount of MP created to 50, increasing a Factions MP Pool by 2%, assigning a number of charges to a station, etc. I've seen so many inventive suggestions in the previous thread I was very dissapointed to see nothing changed about this.[/rant]

[Daemonknight]

the following post under GM rules gives GMs discression to alter the rules to suit any on going RP as needed, giving a rules structure that does demonstrate the primacy of RP over rules.

It does not demonstrate a primacy of RP over rules, it gives GMs the option to alter a rule for special circumstance IF the RP is there. Of course, that requires people actually write RP, and there hasn't been very much of that going on.

Since we're on the subject of hexes and hex improvements, I would like to see a faction lose the Construction Capacity of a hex if it's terrorized. Doesn't make much sense to lose the RP those facilities generate, but then allow them to keep pumping troops out. In cannon, if Hesperus II went down, the Lyran war machine would grind to a halt. Not the case here(assuming the Lyrans still held HesII) because the number of MFs on it is barely worth mentioning compared to some worlds. However, it stands to reason that losing your income would also affect your production. Care to comment?

I also agree with Fate that the Recharge Stations are woefully over priced considering the minimalist boost they give. You're much better served by building the same RPs worth of Mobile ASF, which doesn't make much sense. HI should prove something that their equivlent cost in military forces can't give you: ICs give you communications and income, MFs give you production and RP, SYs give you production and RP. Why are RS the only useless improvement?

Im not arguing what the rules say, I'm arguing their intent vs whats written. It says the unit needs to be stated in advance- I say thats an incomplete statement. It should be chosen in advance, with the provision that if the primary site is taken, it reverts to a secondary location, perhaps one that doesn't get listed, but is the faction's backup hex. I think its a horrid idea to say that you lose all the RP you invested into building forces because you got unlucky that someone attacked the world you chose to build at. And, if we're going with the idea that they're stuck on that world, its total BS to me to not allow those units to defend the location they're stuck at.

[Daemonknight]

Also, IM/Grae:

would appreciate even a token response to the combat threads for: Tangua, Mahone, Kolovraty, Hood IV, Jesenice, Newton Square. Also, Minderoo goes foreward, because of DR's ruling about map issues messing with movement paths. Even if the response is flat refusal, I need to know before the deadline so I know what my forces are doing there.

[Iron Mongoose]

I'll look into it, though it may be a bit (I've got my orders on a computer, rather than in the cloud, so I can only get to them some of the time and not other parts of the time, where as I can debate rules anytime I can get on line).

As to recharge stations, I've been on about that for years.  But, since they're useless and no one ever builds them, no one ever really bothers about them, either.

[Fatebringer]

When I build new space stations, it kinda seems mandatory to me to have them So I build them there. Since I'm building them, I figured, bring it up again As they say in the transportation biz, "The squeeky wheel gets the grease."

[Daemonknight]

No, i torture my squeaky wheels untill they stop squeeking. Then i give them grease.

Reverse psychology on inanimate objects- it works

[chaosxtreme]

Alright folks...here is my take as a PLAYER this is not necessarily going to be my ruling but it will probably have a major effect on said ruling.

  Example : Skye had a Fox building at Donegal (hex 1720) (it was started in Turn 41 completes turn 45 is active turn 46). According to how I interpreted the rule as a player I was using all of my SY capacity to build that single fox with attendant DS/ASF so it cost me 25 RP for the FOx then another 40 for the ASF and droppers. I had paid for everything. In turn 45 Donegal was lost to the CLP. So I lost all of that production since the unit was to be present there. According to how the system works I could have had that unit appear at Skye. In hind sight I probably should have done just that.

  The issue I am seeing here is timing this game is an abstarction of large scale interstellar combat. As a player I had no issue with the above example I took a risk building that FOx at Donegal because I needed it close to the front. Factions who have exposed infra get the short end of the stick since they lose options on where to deploy thier forces. Small factions do not have a lot of options and have this issue as well. The rules allow for production  to be focused on any hex where there is an MF or SY, That is still reasonable. I feel that the rules as written work fairly well if they are not abused.

  As it is I lose any capacity on a world when it changes hands and any new construction. Is it fair maybe not does it save paper work definately. Now it would make sense if we tracked percentages complete etc. etc. for units under construction to be added to the defense but who really wants to track 60ths of a unit? I sure don't just because I spend enough time looking at spread sheets and I'm sure that factions with fat bank rolls would hate having to have thier math double checked it would slow things down for combat resolution and we have enough issues with that already...(more)

My point Deathrider is how the rules work what you did with regards to Donegal is exactly how it works. When you start building a unit you declare when its finished it will show up at Hex # blah, in your cast 1730.

You have to declare it when you first start building it when the money and MF/SY points are first begun to be put toward it and it cannot change from that point on.

For someone to suddenly say Its at Skye is the problem and a case of abuse.

[Deathrider6]

That would be 1720 chaos.

And I agree with you as for Demonknight's point on terrorism it also has merit but that is another can of worms I really don't want to deal with. I  see thongs that could be done better in my opinion. I 'm sure everybody does I'm just not willing to put a game on again  so I can rewrite rules since most (if not all ) work fairly well. One again there is also the fact that there is no real winner in this game since the object while everyone wants thier faction ascendant is to have fun doing something we enjoy.

[Fatebringer]

I'm happy to see rules discussions back in a rules thread where we know how to find it later : )

[Marlin]

In regards to the New Hope Station: Was it not so that the attacker stated his forces with him so the defender could choose what he would defend with? If so, there is a big lecture of the Steel Viper in order.

Also, my inner Patriot wants to bid everything there is at his disposal but that would create many other problems. Meta and ingame. Meta: chaos you have 3 Ships there, right? I have none, but yet enough FP to at least threaten them. :/ Unwieldy for Megamek. Not to mention the political backlash of this.

So, what to do?

I mean, its a Regional Capital, once the real capital and stuff. So all should speak for bidding all. Gotta think about that.

BTW: loved your Grand Council bit. As always when you go aggressive and I am not the victim.