OOC Thread

[Daemonknight]

But if it's not a valid point or origin, it can't be created there. However, that doesn't mean you should lose your units being constructed- they don't exist. Otherwise, you should be able to defend a world with partially constructed units. You can't have it both ways: either the unit is infact there as soon as you begin building it(and its techniclly 'alive' during the tun it's constructed, but can't move), or else it's not in-game in any way untill the turn after it's paid for(and if the primary location isn't availible, you should be able to put it someplace else).

[Parmenion]

Of course they exist... that's why we have a hex and planetary notation in our orders sheet.  And yes, you can have it both ways in that it appears at the end of the turn at the shipyard hex nominated.  And it's in game under the current rules because you have expended SY points and RP as per your orders sheet.  Granted, if a hex gets attacked and taken by an enemy force and a faction just so happens to have a build being assemblied there, any normal nation wouldn't keep send prefab bits to a contested hex.  Therefore the obvious solution would be for a GM addendum in that all SY points and RP within the contested hex is lost (if the planet falls), but all other construction going on at other SY is still paid for and constructed.  It just means that these 'off-site' bits are held in the pipeline by the logisitics people until the situation at the contested hex is resolved one way or another.   

[Daemonknight]

Ur now trying to apply fluff to rules. Is elaborate, bit on at the hospital. More later. I disagree is all, lol

[Iron Mongoose]

I do tend to agree with Parm.  These units to be don't just exist in the eather, only to be summoned into being all at once when they're done.  They exist at some place, and that place is noted on orders.  And they don't just spring into bring, they take months of laborious work, in terms of training, drilling, assmbling supplies and material and filling out paper work and other things.  No, they're not ready to fight, but they are not non-existant.

As far as fluff vs rules, there's a difrence between a game like this and a board game like BattleTech.  That's explicitly a board game, made to be rules driven, with a great bit of fiction that's sprung up to support it.  But this is, or at least was, implicitly a Role Play driven game.  "Fluff," that is to say the Role Play that we pour our hearts and souls into, is really at the core of the game for many of us, and all these rules have been built up to support that (there was a time when there were not any rules, and it was purely RP driven, though it became problematic over time).  So, of course we need to give RP considerations like "is there a unit training" consideration.  What an RP oppertuity! 

[Deathrider6]

I'll be making a ruling later today.

[Lord Harlock]

Wait a second! I thought that Anton was shooting blanks. Something is going on here. And it's obvious that it has to do with something. Something possibly . . .evil.

Chances for evil plot by the Illumanti/Needle Ship Producers/Reverse Vampires/Rand Corporation/StarCorps/Crazy Homeless Steve who thinks that he is Batman/The GeneCaste/Pinkie Pie/LioKaiser/I.M. Weasel/ The frozen head of Al Kahn/The Pants of Precentor Apollyon

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]

[Fatebringer]

The way I understood things was, a  unit is created in the first phase of the turn and not available until the end of the turn. If you lose production during the turn, you have to adjust what you created that turn. An example of something I had to deal with were the attacks on the Sudeten Shipards. When we lost those yards we had to reduce the amount of repairs we did that turn by the lost capacity. But Spec Ops went off before the rest of the turn so we retroactively applied the loss to that turn, on the other side, we didn't pay for the repairs we didn't do. Wether that was right or not, I can't say. We notified the GM's of how we interpreted the loss and were not corrected.

[Daemonknight]

I will point out that previous GM decisions are used equally as good and bad examples of rule interpretation. Also, that a previous ruling doesn't make it correct in the face of a lack of written rules.

I'll ask DR to wait until I'm able to defend my position before he makes a ruling.

[Daemonknight]

So, heres the thing: in the context of this game, yes, units are created from the ether. This game does not track off-board items, like militia, logistical trains, supplies, recruitment or training. Every turn, you have a maximum number of FP you are able to activate. They arn't actually trained during that time- lets not forget, a single turn is 2 months. It takes years to train a basic mechwarrior in Successor State militiaries or the Clans. Anything that exists in the game, and anything subject to the rules of the game, is tracked on the map and the faction sheet.

This is why you can have 50 MFs, and spit out 100 FP at a hex with a single MF- they all weren't built/trained there, but the game doesn't allow for things like 'maximum capacity at Facility X'. Why? Because this game is an abstraction, and does not work when you try and apply specifics. Also, we do not track units until the turn AFTER they appear in your 'Military Construction' tab on your sheet. Therefore, they don't exist as far as the game is concerned untill the turn AFTER you paid for them. You can choose anywhere they should come out, but technically, you shouldn't have to choose until the beginning of the turn they 'come into play'.

[GI Journalist]

So you're suggesting if RP is spent on construction and the factories in a particular hex are unavailable on the following turn (contested, destroyed, etc.), then those resources can be redirected to generate FP at another location?

[Holt]

As far as i know, you need to pick which hex the units will be built at when you pay for the unit, not when it comes into play; hence the 'hex' and 'planet' portion of construction in the excel sheet. You do not keep track of which MF/SYs you use to construct the unit, but you do designate its end location when you pay for it.

Blockade only blocks the income gained from the hex to be banked for one turn, not its production capabilities; You can keep producing at the blockaded hex.

It is a flaw in the blockade rules and easily fixed but until it is as long as you own the hex and it is not contested, any units built pre-blockade or post blockade may start their turn in the blockaded hex.

The rule for blockade not including movement states:

During a Blockade no RP from the target hex may be used, and it may only be banked a maximum of one cycle, in addition no troop or Flotilla movements will be allowed in, out or through the hex unless Blockade Running or Pirate Transit* is used.

P.S. Construction is not considered 'troop movement'.

[Daemonknight]

So you're suggesting if RP is spent on construction and the factories in a particular hex are unavailable on the following turn (contested, destroyed, etc.), then those resources can be redirected to generate FP at another location?

yes

[Daemonknight]

As far as i know, you need to pick which hex the units will be built at when you pay for the unit, not when it comes into play; hence the 'hex' and 'planet' portion of construction in the excel sheet. You do not keep track of which MF/SYs you use to construct the unit, but you do designate its end location when you pay for it.

That is how its currently written, but my point is that the issue is one of timing- we issue orders at the end of one turn, which is also the beginning of another. There isn't a multi-step orders process, like say the way timing works in Magic the Gathering. Everything 'goes off' at once here. It shouldn't, because it doesn't really make much sense when you apply it to context like this.

The units spend a whole turn 'being assembled' off-board- this means they can't be affected by anything that happens in-game. Now, the end of the turn shows up. Techniclly, they still don't exist untill the next turn starts, when they pop out at Hex X. However, if Hex X isn't a valid target(it was conquored, the MF was destroyed), you shouldn't lose those units, they should simply show up somewhere else.

Lets use the RP side, since it's been said that RP should drive the game for some reason.

The Marians begin assembling 20 FP of ground forces at Alphard. January 20th, the Spirit Cats show up. Well, the material that isn't already at Alphard, isn't going to keep going there. It'll be re-routed. And the little bit that has trickled in? Is likly easily replaced at the new site.

Because lets not forget, there is no time-lock in this game, like Flashpoint. Yes, every turn is equal to 2 months, but the actual day of an action is totally upto the writer of the RP. It could be the day the turn ends, and I'm fully within my rights to write an RP on January 1st. Theres no rule against it.

And thats the problem with saying the RP takes precidence over the rules. The rules without RP is a strategy wargame. The RP without the rules is Fanfic. Last I knew, the FGC was a game still.

[chaosxtreme]

re-routing = bad idea.

assembled new units doing anything other then going poof = bad idea.

I could see my way to that FP being captured as salvage but even that is far more work then I think worth it.

And this is why

#1) MORE work for the GM's more chances for abuse by players on fudging the numbers as it becomes more complicated. It doesn't even have to be on purpose it could easily be an accident. That's why players have to post where the force they are building will appear so that if that world gets lost they lose them.

#2) The rules as they stand now allow someone to create huge force's and have them pop up anywhere and nobody seems to have a problem with that in how they want to "revise the rules" they just don't want their exposed infra to cost them that huge force they were building on the border if it gets taken out.

#3) Lets be honest people do this for one very good reason. Logistics. You need forces on your border but if your main infra is there defending it is to costly not to defend it like its your capital. But  by being able to have it "appear with one or two infra there its very useful.

The ability for that major new force you were building to go poof prevents rampant abuse of #3 while not forcing every new unit to form on Hesperus II, Irian, Tharkad, Menke etc.

It also gives opponents the oppurtunity to pearl harbor you by hitting those border infra worlds with raids or invasions to take out those facilities before a big state can wtf pawn them with giant new units that spawn out of those single and dual factory worlds.

[Parmenion]

Here's an scenario...

say the HA wants to build another Invictus class dreadnought.  With our limited SY capacity, it's going to take a number of cycles to finish, and so we have notated Onverwacht as the location on our spreadsheet (as per the rules).  For three cycles it's building merrily awaiting and is half finished (gotta wait for those MDM launchers to arrive!!).  Fourth cycle, and constructing continues on, but the FedSuns sends in a mass attack to take out Onverwacht. 

Under your proposal I can stargate a half finished Invictus to the Clan Homeworlds and finish it there, with no loss of SY (except perhaps the points from the lost SY at Onverwacht). 

We have simplified the rules down as they are so that GM oversight is minimal to observe the construction and movement of FP (as you have mentioned).  But surely with the requirement to nail down on our spreadsheets where the finished product is going to become active, at least we have some defining point of reference, rather than just being allowed to stargate all over the place.