OOC Thread

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, its not a perfict example, since the worse force is second liners and therefore inferior, the Clans would consider that a 'fair' fight, since each side is using three points of force.  Impetus of War offers a very similar example, where Loran Jeffereys and the Highlanders are faced with a bid of five points of second line force.  Since they are impersonating front line (therefore cocksure) Jaguars, they are advised it would be "In Cherictor" to bid just four points of force... of front line omni mechs.  But, Loren bids five, which while not an honor winning under bid is considered fair and ballanced.

The problem is, the Clans would consider sending six light mechs up against either force 'unfair' and an over bid, even if our FP system would consider it fair, and BV might say any number of difrent things depending on the mechs.  And if the front line force given was elite, that match up would still be 'fair.'  If the second liners lose (and IC any clanner watching would expect them to) its their own fualt.  If their Clan was strong, it would have given them better mechs (even second liners could have had access to an Imp C and, a Whammy IIC, and a Gargoyle D, which would give that front line force a hell of a time with the same tonnage of mechs) and if they were skillful, they would have been able to overcome their disadvantage in mechs (put elites in thouse second liners and the BV, and the fight, gets a bit closer, especaly given the speed of the Gargoyle and P-Hawk to avoid fire and pick range, and its possible to imagine the second liners winning).  After all, the Clans value warriors over their mechs (some Clans more, some less so). 

The system is what it is.  If you really want to game the system, you can.  If you don't, you may very well get taken by an unscrupulious opponent who does (who will quickly get a reputation, and then everyone will know not to give them an inch, while you get a rep for being a good guy, and other good guys won't tend to game you).

But, the system is I think a poor reflection of how an IC Clanner would tend to view things, so when we talk about winning or loseing honor by under or over bidding, I think that FP is not always a good guide.

[Fatebringer]

I use the Gargoyle in my front line units, just usually not the Prime. Still, the point was not to point out mech choices, but the variance between mechs in the same category. It doesn't matter if their 2nd line units, they're worth the same FP and people haven't bid down and rightfully so. That was just an example of some of the sucky assaults. I can easily make a 2nd line unit that could stand up to any Front line unit.

Bane 3
Highlander IIC
Marauder IIC

In regards to the 6 lights vs 3 assaults, I know I wouldn't. If I were facing off against Hellions, I'd expect to see at least 9 Lights vs 3 Assaults as their Pack Zell allows. (1 Light vs 1 Light, 1 light vs 1 Medium, 2 Light vs 1 Heavy, 3 Lights vs 1 Assault) and in any situation, they can substitute 2 lights for 1 medium (1 Med vs 1 Heavy, 1 light & 1 medium vs 1 assault) It's not about the numbers, but the quality and skill.

But, the system is I think a poor reflection of how an IC Clanner would tend to view things, so when we talk about winning or losing honor by under or over bidding, I think that FP is not always a good guide.

I agree to this. RP should come first in trials, but as we've seen over and over, some people have been doing trials, "By the rules" and the rules called trials invasions, and as long as you followed the invasion rules, the GM's didn't care that what was going on was unclanlike. There were no rules set up for Clanners to do "Call Down" bids and those people that opted to reinforce their trials from huge call down pools abused the system because all it proved was that if you send enough soldiers at something, eventually you will win.

I liked the old rule were trails were 1 round of combat unless there was a tie or an RP reason to continue. People who feel that their combat should not be dictated by 1 roll because they can roll a 2 and it shouldn't reflect the combat, aren't thinking about the potential RP or the fact that Clanners should be trying to prevent wastefulness. The dice gods, they be fickle, but you should roll with it. I've rolled plenty of sucky rolls.

While not a "Trial" example, I didn't want the TH / WiE to live thru Orestes, but my rolls sucked and they did. How did I RP it off? The Jade Falcons found out they had a chance to Finish off the Dezgra Wolves and did a Risky maneuver in a mindless assault on the WIE position and were denied by a coordinated defense. I took my licks, and moved on.

[Daemonknight]

yeah, thanks again for RPing away our inability to kill the Wolves on my faction jerk


As far as I know, Trials are actually considered 'Battle' type orders, as opposed to Invasions(techniclly, an Invasion is a series of Battles/Raids, with whoever gets to 3 victories first 'winning' the invasion). Now, we don't actually see much of that(especially the 3-combat then retreat portion), but thats how the rules are actually written down last I looked through them. A Trial is always 1 die roll(except in a tie), though I've never actually worked out which gives you victory- more damage, or the winning roll? Because if you bid a smaller force and roll a 10, but your opponent rolls a 9, he is likly doing more damage, even though you actually 'fought better'. And then Criticals get involved and muddy it further.

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, my take on that is that Clan trials are over when they're over.  So, if one side takes a lot of damage and calls 'uncle' (which is seen reasonably often in canon, and considered a mark of honor, in knowing when you've been beaten and avoiding waste) then its over.  But, if that party would sooner fight to the death, then there's plenty of honor in that, too (at least if the target is at least moderately important; fighting to the death over a spoon would be pretty wasteful). 

So I would think that rather than one side declairing victory, it would be a case of the other side conceeding defeat, as being the most in line with how I tend to see canon Clan trials working.  Of course, sometimes someone who's at ease with a bit of legal manuvering (or just lieing, like Amy Lynn) may simply declare victory where there is none, or where there is some uncertanty, and hope to get away with it (which, for the record, I did in the example above) but that is what it is.

After all, how else to model something like the Hellions' first strike? (I actualy played a trial out like that once, too, which was wildly rediculious)

[Daemonknight]

I must disagree with your notion about fighting to the death as it pertains to the Clans. They abhor waste in all forms, and dying to the last man(unless the odds are dead even, or in favor of the Clan in question) is never going to be seen as honorable if it does not gain victory. Dying in combat in and of itself is not an honorable end- dying in pursuit of victory is. If you are heavily outgunned/outnumbered, with little chance for victory, but you charge in anyways 'to take as many down with you as possible', thats about as wasteful as you can get. Even Aidan's last stand was only honorable because of the lives he saved, not because he took down X enemies on his own.

However, from an RP sense, yes, one side either requests/accepts hegira and is defeated. I just doubt many people will actually RP this out, or else will take a very loose interpertation of the Clans' hatred of wasting men or materials.

[Dave Baughman]

Wellll, I'm not so sure about that. Three ten-ship squadrons of maximum-munch heavy Omnifighters with 0/1 pilots would tear up pretty much any warship (with no fighters because of the order the Thera selected), even if they take heavy losses in return. But that touches on one of the big problems with Flashpoint which was that I didn't spend enough time teaching every one the (very different from FGC) rules when I had the free time to do so. But... the trials and tribulations of Flashpoint are a totally different discussion.

There is always a chance to abuse the power, no matter which way you do things. In the Flashpoint game, a "Fair" FP exchange was a super legedary trinary of Wolf's Dragoons fighters vs a Thera and it's escorts FP wise, they were equal, but in reality, I don't care how good you are, without fiat or some other special event, your not going to be able to make up that difference in an actual game.

[Daemonknight]

hopefully when GIC comes out, such issues will be resolved- especially because I'll hopefully still be running the Navy

[Cannonshop]

I must disagree with your notion about fighting to the death as it pertains to the Clans. They abhor waste in all forms, and dying to the last man(unless the odds are dead even, or in favor of the Clan in question) is never going to be seen as honorable if it does not gain victory. Dying in combat in and of itself is not an honorable end- dying in pursuit of victory is. If you are heavily outgunned/outnumbered, with little chance for victory, but you charge in anyways 'to take as many down with you as possible', thats about as wasteful as you can get. Even Aidan's last stand was only honorable because of the lives he saved, not because he took down X enemies on his own.

However, from an RP sense, yes, one side either requests/accepts hegira and is defeated. I just doubt many people will actually RP this out, or else will take a very loose interpertation of the Clans' hatred of wasting men or materials.

Hmmm...the 11th Kowloonese Coast Guard Relief Company, Kwangchowwang, 3069 (or thereabouts?) demonstrated this principle rather precisely against the Star Adders-when the Adders broke their bid, the Coastie infantry accepted hegira, and walked out with a moral victory and serious bragging rights even in the midst of losing the planet.

It is not dishonourable to offer, or accept, Hegira when the imbalance in firepower and manpower are both quite severe-for the side with the advantage, it can be seen to be a sign of great strength to be able to make the offer, and accepting it carries no shame (at least, if you actually READ the rule of Zellbriggen).  In the Kwangchowwang example, the Adders broke bid and called down a full cluster on the remains of what amounts to a reinforced light infantry company that had managed to out-manuever and out fight a roughly equivalent force of Clan vehicle and BA troops-the rough imbalance added up to more than 10 to 1 odds if the Coasties kept fighting after the Adders broke their bid (based on survivor counts, the next round would have been at 20 to 1.)

By offering Hegira at that point, the Adders salvaged some of the honour lost in breaking their bid that severely under the rules of Zellbriggen.  the fundamental rule of Clan ROE is that it's not enough to merely "win", you have to look good doing it.  On a clan scale, the Coasties there made their opponents look foolish and bumbling, particularly since they didn't break Zell themselves in the combat- This is a key element for Inner Sphere forces fighting the Clans for the first time, and one that the Lyrans have just exploited this turn in a rather massive way-by waging Trials and not breaking Zell, they've hammered the Star Adders  pretty thoroughly at minimal loss to themselves, and so long as they don't break Zell, they're racking up reputation at the expense of their opponents.

Of course, the Lyrans should be offering Hegira if they want to retain those gains in reputation as they take worlds from the Star Adders-this will, among other things, make the Lyran Alliance look stronger by far to other potential 'playmates' in the Clan Sphere-after all, they demonstrate that they are strong enough to let an honourable foe go, rahter than waste men and materiel (and risk Collateral Damage) trying to hunt him down to the last man.

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, as I say, its an RP thing.  But, I think that RP is the mechanism for settling these close battles, rather than just a review of the dice rolls.  Yes, Hegira is something to be offered to an opponent who is respected and who has fought well but is clearly not going to win (though even then, both in canon [Twycross] and in this game [Amanda Carrol was killed by a one legged mech that had only two working weapons and needed 10s to hit that had no reasonable chance to win asside from the maraculious shot that it infact made] we've seen warriors fight back from hopeless situations and win, so an IC rational for not accepting hegira always exists).  But, if either condition is not met, if the opponent was not someone you respect, or if victory is in doubt, then it should stay off the table.

That I think is the only point, that the resualts of trials that don't go to the bitter end should be an RP thing, and even the right to fight to the bitter end or not (against a very hated enemy, or in defense of a very specal prize, or by solahma warriors just looking for death for its own sake) should be an RP thing. 

[Fatebringer]

Wellll, I'm not so sure about that. Three ten-ship squadrons of maximum-munch heavy Omnifighters with 0/1 pilots would tear up pretty much any warship (with no fighters because of the order the Thera selected), even if they take heavy losses in return. But that touches on one of the big problems with Flashpoint which was that I didn't spend enough time teaching every one the (very different from FGC) rules when I had the free time to do so. But... the trials and tribulations of Flashpoint are a totally different discussion.

There is always a chance to abuse the power, no matter which way you do things. In the Flashpoint game, a "Fair" FP exchange was a super legedary trinary of Wolf's Dragoons fighters vs a Thera and it's escorts FP wise, they were equal, but in reality, I don't care how good you are, without fiat or some other special event, your not going to be able to make up that difference in an actual game.

If it did come down to Clan Trinary on Thera, the Thera still win without taking any serious damage. It may not have a ton of Capital weapons, but what they do have are oodles of anti-fighter weapons.

8 ER Large Lasers
8 Large Pulse
8 Medium Pulse
8 Small Pulse
2 LB-10X
2 LRM 20's
2 SRM 6
4 AMS

Capital Laser bay that can target Fighters well.
Capital AC bay that can obliterate a fighter in one shot.

And that's just the front arc. It has the same weapons in every arc, but adds a Barracuda missle and more NAC's for the other arcs. While Capital AC's have the penalty to hit, if they do, they devastate.

This isn't a rules debate so much as a solid, "these fighters were doomed", statement. The aspect of space combat states that the most you can get for a defensive movement modifier without sacraficing your fire as an ASF is 2 + Range and that depends on you keeping a predictable attack vector. Even Clan Fighters have their limits in firepower and ammunition (Most Clan fighters are ammo Hogs and can only make a few passes before having to go resupply).

So while the Clan Fighters would be pretty much auto-hitting when they get close, they just can't hurt a monster like a thera quick enough and Range doesn't help them. Even with the hardest hitting crew, There's no way they could get thru nearly 300 points of armor per side before they were space dust. I mean, oh look, I'm down a 1/3 of my armor on that side, <<Roll>> Aaaah, that's better!

The best thing the Clans have is the Hydaspes, that's 7 pts of damage a turn consistant. The LRMs have 16 ammo each which it is a good supply, and it has plenty of other weapons and tons of armor. However, a traditional Clan Fighter like the Khirgiz though, only has 250 pts of armor, and has enough ammo to fire it's LRM's for 6 turns. So for 6 turns it can do a MAX 12 damage, but the average is more like 8 because of Missles. After that, it drop to 5. I'll never understand why some designs will have 24 shots for the Guass, but only 6 shots for the LRM's ;P The AC20 Carriers also usually carry low ammo such as the Khirghiz C only carring 10 shots for a for a UAC so go double rate, you last 5 turns

[Dave Baughman]

Well, far be it for me to turn this into a 'fighters vs warships' argument but...

A) Why would fighters making a strike against an enemy warship want to loiter more than 5 or 6 turns anyway?
B) lets take a more detailed look at what would be on the board...

Star 1/Section 1

1 Xerxes
1 Scytha '
1 Kirghiz '
2 Jenghiz A

9 ERLL = 9 Cap
4 ERPPC = 6 Cap
8 LPL = 8 Cap
2 GR = 3 Cap
3 UAC20 = 9 Cap
1 LB10X = 1 Cap

Maximum damage per turn: 36

Star 1/Section 2

1 Jenghiz B
1 Kirghiz A
1 Scytha B
1 Schtha C
1 Hydaspes

3 GR = 5 Cap
2 ERLL = 2 Cap
6 ERPPC = 9 Cap
8 LPL = 8 Cap
6 MPL = 4 Cap
2 LRM-15 = 2 Cap
2 LRM-20 = 2 Cap

Maximum damage per turn: 32

Star 2/Section 1

1 Jenghiz '
1 Scytha '
1 Kirghiz '
1 Jenghiz A
1 Jenghiz B

1 LB10X = 1 cap
1 UAC20 = 3 cap
1 GR = 2 cap
5 ERPPC = 8 cap
5 ERLL = 5 cap
6 LPL = 6 cap
2 MPL = 1 cap
2 ERML = 1 cap
2 SRM6 = 2 cap
2 LRM20 = 2 cap

Maximum damage per turn: 31
*has ECM

Star 2/Section 2

1 Jenghiz B
1 Kirghiz A
1 Scytha B
1 Scytha C
1 Kirghiz C

1 UAC20 = 3 cap
3 GR = 5 cap
8 ERPPC = 12 cap
11 LPL = 11 cap
2 LRM20 = 2 cap
2 ERML = 1 cap

Max damage per turn: 34

Star 3/Section 1

1 Jenghiz '
1 Scytha '
1 Kirghiz '
1 Jenghiz A
1 Jenghiz B

1 UAC20 = 3 cap
2 LB10X = 2 cap
3 GR = 5 cap
7 ERLL = 7 cap
5 ERPPC = 8 cap
6 LPL = 6 cap
2 MPL = 1 cap
2 ERML = 1 cap
2 SRM6 = 2 cap
2 LRM20 = 2 cap

Maximum damage per turn: 37
*has ECM

Star 3/Section 2

2 Kirghiz A
1 Scytha B
1 Scytha C
1 Hydaspes

2 GR = 3 cap
3 ERLL = 3 cap
6 ERPPC = 9 cap
13 LPL = 13 cap
8 MPL = 6 cap
2 LRM15 = 2 cap

Maximum damage per turn: 36

Total maximum damage per turn: 206

Now, I'll be the first to agree that these ships will not be doing their maximum damage due to the way the shooting rules function (though they will be hitting more or less all their shots, regardless of capital ECM, on account of their 1/2 pilots plus lots of pulse and tarcomp and LBX in the mix), but lets assume they are hitting for "average" distribution of 60%, we're talking 124 damage per turn. We can also I think safely assume a falloff of 10% per turn due to attrition.

Assuming those fighters loiter for 6 turns, stay parked in one arc (remember, fighters always win initiative versus capital ships), that Thera is going to be taking about 558 capital damage. A Thera's best-armored arc + I.S. is what, 480 points of damage capacity? So... that aero trinary actually poses a real threat if its own right - if it can keep locked on one location and the dice gods don't frown on them, they actually have a shot at sinking the Carrier (something, I should note, that would be very difficult to achieve in Flashpoint simple rez, and which would require some very difficult critical hits -- the Goons would have to get multiple instances of critical hit #2, which only has a 1/36 chance of being rolled - to deplete all of the Thera's FP). The more that I look at this (admittedly extreme case) I think the Goons actually have a better chance in MegaMek than in Simple Rez.



It look to me, by the numbers, that a trinary-sized strike against a Thera by legendary Clan heavy omnifighters (using the Wolf Dragoons' aero table from Flashpoint) actually poses a serious threat that that carrier. Of course, the Goons are also going to take losses (probably heavy losses), but that's a given with any kind of aerospace strike against a WarShips.

In Flashpoint, the FWL Thera was worth 346 FP (again, not counting its fighters because they weren't used in that fight. Personally, I would have used them initially to atrit the Goons down to a level where they were not a threat to the carrier any more). The Legendary Goons were worth 222 FP, so they were at a significant disadvantage to begin with.

Given that the -average- fight outcome in Flashpoint is 40% damage, the Goons would probably get mauled (~60% losses) while the Thera took 89 FP... more than enough to get its attention but not enough to scrap it outright (remember, no "direct damage" rule in Flashpoint to kill WarShips without depleting 100% of their FP). Moreover, the weakened Goons would be much more vulnerable to follow-up attacks by the Thera's fighter wings and might be in really sorry shape by the end of the campaign, while on the other hand the only real adverse impact on the FWLN would be strategic - having to pull back the Thera for repairs and possibly having its skill level drop.

So... I think actually the balance of power in that scenario was about right in Flashpoint. Having said that though I know I'm biased since "it was my baby" - I just wanted to put the math out there.

[Marlin]

Well, that sounds like a test for MegaAero, no?

(not for me, though, as I suck at that,)

[Fatebringer]

In Megamek, armor is under BV'd. So if the Dragoons took off even 1/2 of it's armor, I'd doubt if it lost more then 10% of it's BV.

Granted the fighters would win init, but still, managing the movement is still a tricky thing and they would most likely be facing fire before they were in range, and then 3 arcs when they were in range. No matter how much you try to focus on one arc in Naval, Like vehicles, you hit a lot of locations you don't want to speading your damage.

We can also I think safely assume a falloff of 10% per turn due to attrition

Aff, but that 10% is cumulative. You have to conside the loss of firepower over 5 turns if that is our model.

With the average of 124 as you stated, - 12 for turn 1 is 112, - 12 for turn 2 is 100, -12 on turn 3 is 88, -12 on turn 4, is 76, by the time turn 5 comes, you've already lost 40% of your firepower and have done an average of 500 Damage. Now, assuming the long range stuff didn't whittle them down a little, mass critical combat losses haven't started to occur, the ship doesn't manage to give them fresh armor, ignore the dozen AMS that are shooting down missles, and they miraculously group all their fire into one section, yeah, they could do some internal damage. The biggest asset to this scenario is to say that they are auto-hitting, which for the numbers I'd grant because I mean come on, when you throw a ball at a wall, you hit with the ball, you throw 20 paper clips at a wall, you hit with 20 paperclips All missles should hit. But lets avoid physics, I like catgirls, especially Chloe King I miss The Gates, but at least she's got a new show

Oh, and most importantly, the "Max Damage" Number scenario you gave doesn't involve the Heat Factor...

224 Heat Sinks vs 294 Heat for just the first squadron, and Megamek won't let you fire weapons that you don't have the Heat Sinks for because of the new rules. If they've fixed that errata, then it would be a PSR (not a big deal for legendary warriors), but you'ld still have overheat penalties.

Anywho, I make my point, the only way to show it first hand is as marlin says, to play a game I'm still waiting for my match avainst Jedibear for the "Debacle at Galedon" I insist that even a sick Conqueror crew backed up by the Sovetskii Soyuz shouldn't have lost to the Texas / Cameron combo.

Thank you for reigniting my passion for talking naval stuff  

[Cannonshop]

Well, that sounds like a test for MegaAero, no?

(not for me, though, as I suck at that,)

Get one player who's good to referee, and two who suck to actually play it out.  The reason is 'Soldier Proof testing'-we don't have sufficient GOOD MM/MA players to stage a test with great players on both sides, but we've got lots of people who stink at it...(like me, and by your own admission, you...) this gives a good baseline of comparison based on "Lowest Common Denominator of Play".

Of course, the true obstacle, is that nasty little 'lack of interest' thing.  People will go on pages upon pages of debate on an academic level, but when it comes to testing theories on a practical level, most folks are un-interested.

(that, and the only 'practice' I get with MA rules, is on the ground map, because the damn Bot only wants to handle surface units, everything else magically hovers in one spot...)

[Fatebringer]

For scrubs, I'd agree. Good test format, but for what Dave wants, you have to have someone playing the Dragoons, that is good because of the precision manuevering the fighters will have to do not to overextend themselves and stay in the same arc. It's totally possible, but hella hard. Doesn't matter about the Thera. Just make sure to tell them, shoot the Anti-Air stuff before capital, and they can spam all day long.