OOC Thread

[Daemonknight]

Well, there's 'permissable' under the strict rules, and 'honorable' under the norms of the day.

Traditionaly, any amount up to the opening bid, the very first bid made by any particapant in the bidding, may be called down, but at a 'significant loss of honor.'  The penultimate bid may be called down, with a relitively minor (but non zero) loss of honor.  So, the Lyrans are within their 'rights.' Under the trial system.  In many fights, the only recorse the Adders have is name calling (and reciprocial behaviors in the future).

But, it is worth noting that in all the fights that are not millita, only a fraction of the defenders were used, and while its never actualy been seen, one imagines the defender retains a similar right as well.

So, in battles where the Adders are down, but not by more than one third of their opponents strength (for example, I saw battles were the next round would stand at 2-1.5, which is 75% strength, or 2.75-2, which is 72%) per the guidelines I set (before I knew about the call down bids, too) Adders would at least give consideration to fighting on.  So, in accordance with the guidlines I left, such trails should be considered every bit as open as the ones with the Lyran call down bits, and not LA victories.

Just be sure that the name calling will be intense.  And that you reap what you sow.

I'm perfectly happy to open the combats up again if you decide you like the odds and want to roll another round, or drop more troops out. As for the 'Calling down multiple times, I have a solution, but it requires your agreement(because it would invalidate a few of the rolls). Instead of brinning down forces to equal, we're bring down a big chunk of the forces there(maybe not the whole unit, but some of it anyways).

[Fatebringer]

Hey I am not hating DK.

My usual last bid IS the entire unit. And I have in previous case's called the whole thing down.

There was a bit of a row until all the Clan law afficionado's went through it and saw that YES I had obeyed by Clan Law the entire time.

You can call down the whole unit you just can not keep calling down. Im sure your enemies will use it against you and those of us who are indifferent will use it for our own gain. ;-)

Is this the way Clanners bid? Generally not and as you can see, the fact that they do is very annoying to me, so I'm vocal about it. When I first joined the FGC, I had to take a test to be a Clanner. I don't know if the GMs ever rejected someone from the clans, but if this is how someone is bidding a clan force, then they should be rejected.

I cheer every time I see someone actually underbid. Honor for them, none for joo!

[Daemonknight]

I tend to look at this whole issue as a phenomena of the game. In the truest sense, the actual bidding would be internal to the units. However, I don't see how bidding a regiment or RCT for a whole planet, and then matching the lower bid, is dishonorable.

[Daemonknight]

If no players are willing and able to do this, we will do our best to get around to it, but be cautioned that our best may not prove very good.  If a few days pass and there is no responce, Demonknight may resolve these himself, if he has the time and energy.

as for this, I'd be happy to roll out the rest of the combats myself to save DR the work, and it'd obviously be done according to your stated wishes. However, I don't know if there is actually line units at each world, or what size for you'd have setup to defend the planet- the current range is 3-5fp, so i'd be forced to go with 4. However, thats not something I'm comfortable doing unless you specificlly say that its okay. Plus as I said- not sure if any of those worlds are undefended, making it a 1fp militia trial.

if you can either post here that 4fp is good, or 3, or whatever, I can finish up all the planetary top trials, and we can move foreward with the Bloodline trials whenever you guys get that setup(however, we only have 4 days, so if you're going to get it done, we need to move on it, otherwise I have to assume you are denying all of them).

[Daemonknight]

not to sound bitchy fate, even though i'm sure thats how this will come off, but I'd prefer to close my own combat threads. And this isn't because of Greenlaw- thats a rules dispute, and I still stand by you and CS being wrong, but we will let DR have a look at it.

I had this happen before, and Dave B backed me up(at the time, though perhaps he doesn't remember). The crits that modify the damage dealt by x% are modifying damage, based on the rolls. All those modifers MUST go through first, before doubling, otherwise if he had, for instance, had a +10% damage, it wouldn't be doubled. You can't apply it two ways, and the defender most DEFINETLY does not get to decide the order in which critical events are applied.

[Fatebringer]

LOL, oh, I know I've come across as bitchy in these rants, because it's annoying me.

However, I don't see how bidding a regiment or RCT for a whole planet, and then matching the lower bid, is dishonorable.

My entire point is summed up as this. "Matching" a bid is not what clan trials are about. People are matching bids because they don't have the balls to follow the system and Underbid like they should be.

Overbidding and Call Downs are not the clan norm, but because they've seen it done once in a book, people are doing it all the frickin time. I'ts only an FGC "Phenomena" because people don't want to lose and then say, it's because I underbid. But guess what, that's what's supposed to happen. You go for it, it means something, you play it safe, your a coward and no one respects you. That's Clan society. People who play it safe should expect the derision of their peers.

[chaosxtreme]

Oh I am fine with underbidding. If someone is prepared to take the game to MegaMek or Mega Aero. I do not underbid when it comes to Simple Resolution because that is just mathematically dumb.

Of course if I was underbidding I would be taking fewer mechs with better pilots most likely but that's just how I roll.

Underbidding and cut downs have their place but its just not a good idea in simple res as the numbers are against you and continue to go against you the more rounds that go on.

[Fatebringer]

The odds in Megamek are as statistically stacked against you as in simple resolution. The point is to be consistant and follow the intent of your people. Just because you can't twink out a zombie assault force like you do, doesn't mean you this part of clan society should be ignored.

[Iron Mongoose]

The odds in Megamek are as statistically stacked against you as in simple resolution.

I disagree here.  I think many of us in our heart of hearts, weather we're right or wrong, truely belive that we're better MMers than everyone else.  Conversely, no one belives there's a better dice roller than anyone else (well, someone might, but they'd be harder pressed to support that notion).

As for 'bidding,' there was a rule in the early game that Clans with two players actualy had to really, truely bid for things.  Every now and then, when there are several Clans in the bidding, things get really spirited and competitive.  Not once in thouse situations has the resualting bid been over the defender.  Often, its below 80% of the defender.  This is what real, true, competitive bidding does.  There is no qustion that when it really comes down to it, as players we have the same behavior as Clanners, in that we're willing to take big risks for our shot at glory.

Now, its not really reasonable or practical to simulate that for any but the most critial trials (which are inveriably to be MMed out).  And in the case of Lyrans, I had simply imagined that there really was no bid and they're just tweeking the rules for their own gain, which is a reasonable IC thing for them to do I feel.  But, for any faction, I think its important to pause for a second and think about what is reasonable for them to have done.  Did they bit against one another, but the target was important and no one wanted to go below the cut down?  Did the commander simply assign the bid?  Is the whole unit involved anyway, so bidding is moot?  Or is the unit just being and buch of IC sleeze balls (what ever the OOC intention may be) and abusing Clan honor for its own gain?

[chaosxtreme]

What IM said.

Even against those who I consider really good MM'ers, I feel that if I have a skill boost which most front line units will have over Garrison and secondline forces, and with Zellbrigen being enforced that I will be able to claim glory.

Even without those things if I am on the defense I believe I can pull a win through the defenders option to pick the battlefield and tailoring my force to compliment it best.

But the dice roller has no skill to it. There is no way I can maneuver that on this turn to give me an advantage and yeah I could still get a really bad series of dice rolls and lose but even then I can pull out before it gets to bad.

It gets even worse with warships as their expensive have negative bonus's in simple res that effect their survivability and are "weak" to easily/cheaply produced units (aerospace can be produced at MF's and SY's).

Mind you I understand the reasons Warships were getting to prevalent and something had to be done to give those who can not afford the beasties a way to compete. But in a MA game I do not care how big the board is if a fight is lost against fighters I am probably going to be able to get a real warship off the map before it succumbs to the plink of doom.

Sincerely,

Robert Johnson

[Fatebringer]

I disagree here.  I think many of us in our heart of hearts, weather we're right or wrong, truely belive that we're better MMers than everyone else.  Conversely, no one belives there's a better dice roller than anyone else (well, someone might, but they'd be harder pressed to support that notion).

I may have phrased it differentl, but that's what I was saying.

The odds in Megamek are as statistically stacked against you as in simple resolution.

The use of "stacked against you" was just my way of pointing out that we will always beat Chaos. he he he, so it was just me messing with him. The statement essentially means, there is no difference between the two.

[Daemonknight]

As said before, matching an FP bid, might not actually be a matching bid. It might be less machines, with better pilots, or smaller machines with better pilots. I don't remember how many units involved in my side arn't Regular, but its over 1/3, so theres a case for that opinion. Either way, I don't see matching as an 'honorable' course of action, but that doesn't automaticlly make it 'dishonorable' either. there is a grey area of 'well, thats not really scummy, but its not really kosher either'. And thats where the Lyrans are sitting pretty right now(or trying to anyways).

[Fatebringer]

To consistantly fail to be bold is scummy in Clanner eyes and yes, scum builds up and is then harder to get off. Of if the upper crusty LA preferes, tarnish.

[Daemonknight]

Hey, i think 20 something attacks at once should count for something. Those poor Lyrans could barely put down some fool peon rebellion 2 decades ago. Now they're making the Adders slither all over themselves in fear. I call that progress.

On the subject of 'slithering over themselves in fear'- poor chaos. Even when he wins, he doesn't win. I think the Adders have lost less FP(and no warships) in 30-odd trials.

[Fatebringer]

The way I see it, even with the Salvage, the Vipers are down 100 RP, and the Cats are only down 50. Will see if he keeps trying to pull that shtick