Rules Questions and Comments

[Marlin]

Yes, indeed.

[Raginar]

when building new unit are they suppose to be green or can you build them as regular?

[Dave Baughman]

when building new unit are they suppose to be green or can you build them as regular?

Unless the rules changed when I was not paying attention, you can choose to build them as Green or Regular. Building them as Green costs less (since you pay by their skill-adjusted Force Point value), but of course they are 5/6 (or at best, 4/5 fo some Clanners), which can be a real liability in MegaMek.

[Fatebringer]

Me and Holt were talking about the inbalance that versatile ASF's have caused in the game and have what we think is a good system.

First off, Mobile and LF Mobile units cost too much. However Transported ASF's are cheap.

So. Step 1

Create a new cost system.

Mobile Units x 3
LF Mobile Units x 6

Step 2

Add a x3 Modifier for Warships.

Mobile Warship = x6
LF Mobile Warships = x9

Step 3

Make it so that ASF's can only be made as Mobile or LF Mobile Units.

Escorts would be created as standard ASF without the x3 warship modifier and be able to ride any like mobility unit and not kill their MP Bonus if their parent unit is destroyed.

This would increase ASF Costs to reflect their versatility and avoid Aero Stack of Doom scenarios and reduce escort costs to something reasonable.

[Cannonshop]

Me and Holt were talking about the inbalance that versatile ASF's have caused in the game and have what we think is a good system.

First off, Mobile and LF Mobile units cost too much. However Transported ASF's are cheap.

So. Step 1

Create a new cost system.

Mobile Units x 3
LF Mobile Units x 6

Step 2

Add a x3 Modifier for Warships.

Mobile Warship = x6
LF Mobile Warships = x9

Step 3

Make it so that ASF's can only be made as Mobile or LF Mobile Units.

Escorts would be created as standard ASF without the x3 warship modifier and be able to ride any like mobility unit and not kill their MP Bonus if their parent unit is destroyed.

This would increase ASF Costs to reflect their versatility and avoid Aero Stack of Doom scenarios and reduce escort costs to something reasonable.

Funny, you know, I never generate ASF units as such on the naval tab normally-I usually build off of a ship if I want fighters and droppers to move.  We've GOT standard JS available on the list, not just Warships.  The only time I've actually CHOSEN to build Transported ASF, is for the integral air-support for other Transported forces on the Ground tab.

YMMV, but I think maybe "Independent Squadrons" should be isolated to Transported, and any non-warship asf's should be generated with their jumpships.  That would ALSO end Aero-stakkodooming from the Naval tab, unless the faction's got a huge MP budget to cover moving that many transported units.

i.e. "Naked" Aero (that is, Aerospace that doesn't have a listed Jumpship or warship) should be limited to Transported movement, then alter the budgets-Jumpships maybe costing 3RP/Mobile and 5 RP/LFB, and Warships costing 6RP/Mobile and 10RP/LFB.

Making people account for their line-items should help eliminate STakkodhooming Aero about as effectvely as changing the costing formulae, since to load them on an existing hull for the line-item automatically goes back to limitations on what it can carry-built in, there ARE no such limitations on the current "Independent Wing" entry to the Naval tab, you can load it up to near infinity with fighters and Droppers and the like...

Of course, for flexible thinkers, such an arrangement has obvious benefits-a relatively inexpensive force can be used to cover a much wider area in Naval Recons, Engagement movements, and suchlike, while it makes organizing forces for massive high-point stak-o-dhoom battles really, really difficult.

[Fatebringer]

But that was the problem, Inexpensive Aero has replaced the Battlemech in this game and many engagements have turned into the "Who has the largest Air Force?" Match ups.

When the DC lost most of it's warships, it stopped making 42 FP Aero Divisions to "Catch Up" with the Naval Powers because he could make them for the same cost as a 4 FP Clan warship. I'd asked many times why we didn't have the designs for the non-LF mobile warships anymore.

Forcing the Clanners to their ships at a x10 cost didn't make sense to me. Just like the insistence of a x10 muliplier for the LF Mobile Warships instead of the x9 cost. To me, it seems like the x10 was just implimented to use a round number. I explained why I felt my way, the other way just seems arbitrary and a "That's the way we've always done it" approach. I know it's easy to calculate that way, but if your not gonna charge a x7 for LF Mobile Aero, why charge x10?

[chaosxtreme]

I thought LF Mobile Aero is 10x just like warships. Thats why I have built so few of them.

[Fatebringer]

They are We're talking about rules proposals.

[Cannonshop]

But that was the problem, Inexpensive Aero has replaced the Battlemech in this game and many engagements have turned into the "Who has the largest Air Force?" Match ups.

When the DC lost most of it's warships, it stopped making 42 FP Aero Divisions to "Catch Up" with the Naval Powers because he could make them for the same cost as a 4 FP Clan warship. I'd asked many times why we didn't have the designs for the non-LF mobile warships anymore.

Forcing the Clanners to their ships at a x10 cost didn't make sense to me. Just like the insistence of a x10 muliplier for the LF Mobile Warships instead of the x9 cost. To me, it seems like the x10 was just implimented to use a round number. I explained why I felt my way, the other way just seems arbitrary and a "That's the way we've always done it" approach. I know it's easy to calculate that way, but if your not gonna charge a x7 for LF Mobile Aero, why charge x10?

Um...

Okay, a Monolith isn't a warship, it IS on the tables for the current sheet, as are most of the non-warship jumpships out of the 3057 book.

or are you referring to designs like the Samarkand, whose apparent absence really doesn't make sense?



as to the rest of the example...

42 point "Aero Divisions"?? Okay, that'd be Transported, which is a great way to eat up your movement budget in a hurry unless you're only planning defensive ops.

maybe it's 'cause I don't like having to wait many, many turns to refill my movement budget, but I tend rather intensely to focus on building the cyclical pool up-when I'm setting up a force or just rebuilding one, because I don't like that "I can't move" feeling of having to either buy MP off the GM 'bank' factions or go without.

[Fatebringer]

((nods)), under the new system a Samarkand would be hella cheaper to fill than before.

1.25 x 6 for the warship cost, than around 20 x 3 for the Fighters is much better than the 21.25 x 6 cost that would currently exhist.

Also, people wouldn't feel like their wasting their RP if regular Mobile Aero cost just as much as the Escort.

I think if "Independent Squadrons" are going to be on the naval tab, they should require dropships to make them "Valid" in the calculation section. I had a few in the RD side, and that bugged me so I added droppers. The only Invalid transported units I have right now are dedicated to escorts paired up with a Mobile warship and only reflects what that ship should be able to carry. That is still a rare occasion, but I for one got tired of paying the huge multiplier costs

I Pay the x10 on my LF Warship because I don't want the fighters to get left behind when my warships jump 10 hexes and they can only go 5. That was my problem with the FS Foxes.

In regards to the Transported DC Stacks, yes, they do eat up MP, when they move, but instead of moving all of them they move some, make more, the stacks keep growing. A 300 FP Aero Force that costs 300 RP still does as much damage as a 300 FP of LF Warships that cost me 3000 to make. I have Aero Forces, but I try to keep them mobile or LF-Mobile for my own reasons. And when there is no incentive for someone not to just make thousands of these, ... well, even Holt who made them knows it's broken My proposal was to make this a little more fair, not just to my warships, but also to ground units that have to try and break thru the stacks to land.

[Cannonshop]

((nods)), under the new system a Samarkand would be hella cheaper to fill than before.

1.25 x 6 for the warship cost, than around 20 x 3 for the Fighters is much better than the 21.25 x 6 cost that would currently exhist.

Also, people wouldn't feel like their wasting their RP if regular Mobile Aero cost just as much as the Escort.

I think if "Independent Squadrons" are going to be on the naval tab, they should require dropships to make them "Valid" in the calculation section. I had a few in the RD side, and that bugged me so I added droppers. The only Invalid transported units I have right now are dedicated to escorts paired up with a Mobile warship and only reflects what that ship should be able to carry. That is still a rare occasion, but I for one got tired of paying the huge multiplier costs

I Pay the x10 on my LF Warship because I don't want the fighters to get left behind when my warships jump 10 hexes and they can only go 5. That was my problem with the FS Foxes.

In regards to the Transported DC Stacks, yes, they do eat up MP, when they move, but instead of moving all of them they move some, make more, the stacks keep growing. A 300 FP Aero Force that costs 300 RP still does as much damage as a 300 FP of LF Warships that cost me 3000 to make. I have Aero Forces, but I try to keep them mobile or LF-Mobile for my own reasons. And when there is no incentive for someone not to just make thousands of these, ... well, even Holt who made them knows it's broken My proposal was to make this a little more fair, not just to my warships, but also to ground units that have to try and break thru the stacks to land.

Any system is subject to some kind of abuse.  One of the things I've toyed with, is the idea of limiting the size of "Independent Wings" to...y'know, "Wing" sizes based on the chart in the rules- meaning there's only so many fighters you can assign before you need another line-item.
(making people account more line-items for their doomstax.)  Having a "Cluster" and "WING" entry similar to those entries used by ships would help-just set a fixed capacity of Droppers and make any unaccounted for bays invalid.

Think something along the lines of a DS capacity of, oh, ten, let's say for shits and giggles.  Now, it has to draw from the existing naval lists for fighter capacity, which means it's going to max out at the same strength that a ten-dropship jumper has.

Which eliminates (potentially) the 200 and 300 point Aerostax as single line-items.  Again, if you have to line out every one of those, it becomes enough of a pain in the ass most people won't use 'em.

Particularly if the posting guideline requiring units participating in an action to be listed by line-item, instead of raw FP is enforced (along with the stated penalty for deviation from it.)

[chaosxtreme]

Wait I thought transported creation provides enough MP to move 1/10th of them....sooo you know you make 100 FP of transported. you have a 90 FP defensive force and 10 FP that can move ya know a hex.

Which on an offensive is really enough.

[Fatebringer]

Until your 10 runs into someone elses 90

[Fatebringer]

Yeah Cannon, I think a lot of balance issues could be solved with upkeep costs, it's one of the things that made the most sense in FP 3090. Except those warship costs No other unit had their experience figured in to the upkeep except the warship.

I think the FGC 3010 had a good idea as well with their FP vs CV. FP was the amount of equipment you had. CV was your modified Combat Value aka (FP x Experience Mod). You did damage with your CV, but took damage to your FP. It was very well balanced.

Even now with the move pause in their game, they're talking about implementing an Upkeep cost as well. But I still think the Aero idea is a good one. As long as it's applied across the board, it's very fair.

[chaosxtreme]

Until your 10 runs into someone elses 90

Offense is SUPPOSED to be harder then defense.

Beside's in all my offensive's. I do broad front attacks and keep moving forward every turn. Someone want's to stack and wipe out a 10 with their 90? Good on them. THey can't do it to all 9 of the 10's I moved forward and I can send one of those defensive 90's to slap their 90+ salvage.