Rules Questions and Comments

[Cannonshop]

Very much worthy of mention, BTW - credit goes to CS for getting me thinking of possible changes to make Commerce Disruption more raid-like in its operation. While its an invasion for real in-game reasons, his discussion of a possible re-imaging of the order got me looking at ways to improve it.

Funny, my idea was really a lot simpler-limit the FP value you can use, turn it into a raid type (the rest of the mechanics of it fit more closely with a raid, than an invasion order) and done-a commerce raid in the classical military sense is a behind-the-lines move to attack teh enemy's logistical tail, which generally speaking, isn't going to be centred on the nearest border hex, but deeper in, and it should be a high-risk operational type-the Germans used it in the Atlantic AND pacific theatres in both global dust-ups.  The operational principle was roving about, hitting targets of opportunity, then running away before the escorts or patrols caught you.  Most of the existing rule reflects this, but it is, in my honest and not-so-humble opinion, miscategorized-'Invasion' implies control over the battlespace, making targets of opportunity by their nature a scarcity.

[Dave Baughman]

Anyone want to help with with a pair of projects?

1) If someone would be so kind as to take the attached spreadsheet and fill in the pertinent sections for each warship it would be greatly appreciated. Please leave any fields that don't apply blank, along with the "total lift" column.

2) If someone could go through IS Atlas, Sarna, etc and get me a list of which systems build each non-warship JumpShip, that would also be a big help. Please cover all of the jumpships listed in the attached file - you don't need to do any that are not listed.

There will be an in-game reward whoever completes each task for me first. So there's no question as to who 'won,' please post your completed project in response to this post. In the event of multiple submissions, post timestamp will determine the winner.

[Dave Baughman]

Bonus project: if someone can track down canonical information about jumpship production rates that would be very much appreciated too - you may need to track down the old Dropships & Jumpships sourcebook to find this information though.

[Cannonshop]

Bonus project: if someone can track down canonical information about jumpship production rates that would be very much appreciated too - you may need to track down the old Dropships & Jumpships sourcebook to find this information though.

Rates in that book were, ahem, ridiculously small, to the point of it speculating only 2000 jumpships active in the entire Inner Sphere-a situation that would be impossible to support an empire the size of, say, the UIW, much less the big five houses, plus OWA, Taurian Concordat, Magistracy, Marians, etc.

and this was BEFORE the resurrection of Warships, Clan Invasion, 4th Succession War, or war of '39, (all operations that required significantly MORE Jumpship capacity than JS&DS postulated).

ISTR that when presented with that question a few years ago, Randall and Herb both offered the same explanation: that they wouldn't attempt to publish hard numbers on Jumpship or Dropship production, because of the cognitive dissonance caused by previous administrations' trying to do so and failing the logic test.

(not the exact wording, mind you.)

[Dave Baughman]

I should clarify on the last point lest anyone read into it things that are not my intention: I am not looking for data on the total number in existence - I realize that this is fasanomics of the worst kind and that its incompatible with reality. However, I am interested in the canonical production time of the various ships. For example, I found it very interesting that it canonically takes six months to build a Black Lion, something that we aren't consistently seeing under the current warship construction rules. Depending on what the canonical numbers are, the way warship & jumpship builds are priced and timed may need to be re-examined (honestly, I've always felt that the current rules make warship production too long and jumpship production too fast, not to mention the bogus-osity of the current pricing mechanism, which is basically a kludge to balance the over-simplified MP rules).

[Cannonshop]

I should clarify on the last point lest anyone read into it things that are not my intention: I am not looking for data on the total number in existence - I realize that this is fasanomics of the worst kind and that its incompatible with reality. However, I am interested in the canonical production time of the various ships. For example, I found it very interesting that it canonically takes six months to build a Black Lion, something that we aren't consistently seeing under the current warship construction rules. Depending on what the canonical numbers are, the way warship & jumpship builds are priced and timed may need to be re-examined (honestly, I've always felt that the current rules make warship production too long and jumpship production too fast, not to mention the bogus-osity of the current pricing mechanism, which is basically a kludge to balance the over-simplified MP rules).

Actually, Jumpships SHOULD be cranking out significantly faster than warships-they don't have the (relatively rare) expensive Transit drives that warships have, and are considerably simpler organisms (check crew requirements-a garden variety Jumpship has a fraction the crew needed to run even a relatively small Warship) with their lack of armour, lack of massive sensor-suites and ECM arrays, etc.

In the Canon (Entry:TRO 3057(R)) the Sylvester (a commercial Warship-style jumpship intended to supplant whole convoys) was a flop that the SLDF built the Carrack (a non-commecial vessel) based on.  There's usually economic reasons for such things, the most important is probably unit cost vs. the amount of income a potential buyer can realize from the purchase.  a Monolith probably pays its purchase price off in a few months to a few years, a compact-core vessel of similar capability may not pay off its construction cost in the first few Decades-not merely the higher cost to build, mind, but likely also the higher maintenance cost (represented, abstractly, in the BT sourcebooks as Crew complement and maint. points.)

Which kind of brings up the question of why the Clans run Carracks-and the obvious answer, is that the Clans don't care about cost, their system doesn't account costs the same way that a free market, or even a semi capitalist system accounts costs-the model presented in Clans:Warriors of Kerensky (along with Invading Clans, and both the Wolf, and Jade Falcon sourcebooks, as well as the FM:CC and FM:WC) indicates a Socialist/Monopolist economic model instead.  (Which also goes a long way to explaining why the Homeworlds are hell-pits compared to even POOR Inner Sphere worlds.  It's the Soviet effect.)

I'd advise that pricing should be different between dedicated purpose-built Warships (Discretionary spending, a Luxury), and general-purpose or dual purpose Jumpships (a necessity if you want an interstellar nation.)
At least, for the Inner Sphere, Jumpships should be cheaper, and the Warships more expensive, while for the Clans, it might make sense to price them much more closely due to the simple fact that the Clans are vastly more likely to invest a higher percentage of their shipyard space to Warships (as we see in the Canon) than jumpships, because of the importance in their culture and politics, of the Warrior caste (military expenditures taking priority even in times of peace, and not governed by the cost limitations that Inner Sphere nations must bear.)

Tactics TEND to be dictated by conditions, it could be said that the whole adoption of Zellbriggen is more to do with the greater percentage of GDP invested in both machines (clantech) and personnel (Breeding programme) that the Clans are centred around-honour duelling adopted as a substitute for all-out-war, because of the economic damage it does to the WINNER when a significant portion of one's production is tied up in smaller quantities of both machines, and men.

Meanwhile, the Inner Sphere stopped trying to keep the warship lines open in the 2nd succession war, because simpler, cheaper jumpship/dropship combos could do most of the same jobs, yet required a fraction of the dedicated hardware and personnel that a warship with the same lift capacity would take, meaning that for the same number of crewers dragooned/recruited/trained, you can cover more area more effectively than a single warship, at a fraction of the cost, and as a result, losses were easier to sustain-and far more likely right up to the middle of the 30th century when the strategic targets began to include non-warship-capable shipyards.

Thus we get to the 3050s and the reintroduction (via the Clans) of Warships.  As the Inner Sphere began devloping, then fielding warship designs, they took a decidely different direction from Clan design (which was more influenced by SLDF and Terran Hegemony era 'big gun' design philosophy.)   Inner Sphere designs tended to account for the hazards of the first and second succession war-thus, more anti-fighter capability, less reliance on guns and less speed, and even the Zechetinu (possibly the lightest corvette constructed in the new era) carries a collar to haul its own escorts.

And finally, to the game-present, where none of those factors really come in to play outside of Megamek fights.  There is zero difference (with the same income/capacity) between how Clan factions build their navy, and how Inner Sphere factions build their navy, except what specific unit designs each are permitted.

which runs back into the circle:canon production rates.

The Star League, with an entire industrialized Inner Sphere to draw from, took six months to build a Black Lion.  Notably, vessels like the RIGA had production numbers in the hundereds, yet production periods of only a few years.  TRO 3057(r) and 2750 both made references to service periods and quantities.  The differences even in the same weight classes were pretty significant, with averages that likely wouldn't make much sense unless you account for intangibles like Bureaucratic spending habits and inefficiencies due to peacetime.

More modern designs might provide a better guide; say, the lead-in-to-production and production numbers of the canon vessels in the Fox, Impavido, Eagle, Feng Huang, Mjolnir, and Avalon classes-their numbers in canon can be confirmed, their cost numbers are there, they represent 'new build' rather than 'refits' (as most Clan warships do), and cost accounts for their development costs.

[Dave Baughman]

I dig what you are saying, and you have raised many good points about warship production and the changing role of warships in the battle line, as well as the disruptive effect of simple resolution on tactical dimorphism.

Just to reiterate though, what I'm looking for is:

A) data-entry on my stats spreadsheet
B) production locations for non-warship JumpShips
C) canonical build time for non-warship JumpShips

If you have this information, and would like to earn some rewards for UIW (or anyone else's faction if others are interested) then please have at it.

[chaosxtreme]

Considering my love of naval warship and non warship.

As well as the holiday weekend.

Challenge accepted.


* We might as well call the monetary equivalent of whatever the Free Worlds bonus will be as the down payment on the FWLS Illusions of Certainty.

[Holt]

Here
























Slave Driver, i knew a lot about warships and now i think i know too much......

[Daemonknight]

lol, Holt wins the race because instead of posting that he would do the work, he just went and did it

well played sir


You are missing an entry however, sir Holt. The Feng Huang(Upgrade). I believe it is in Hot Spots: Sian, or one of the other Jihad books. It was actually a refit package that makes the Feng a scary little cruiser, instead of an overweight destroyer. The CC is basiclly building them as a Block II, as opposed to refitting originals(since they had no originals left)

[Fatebringer]

I had the old file, but it needed the updated BV2 values You know, when they tweaked the BV system

[Holt]

lol, Holt wins the race because instead of posting that he would do the work, he just went and did it

well played sir


You are missing an entry however, sir Holt. The Feng Huang(Upgrade). I believe it is in Hot Spots: Sian, or one of the other Jihad books. It was actually a refit package that makes the Feng a scary little cruiser, instead of an overweight destroyer. The CC is basiclly building them as a Block II, as opposed to refitting originals(since they had no originals left)

It was not on the sheet, i was writing a PM on it.

[Fatebringer]

I've been working on trying to come up with a BV sheet for everything in megamek for the Solaris 7 game. That kinda stuff just takes time

[Holt]

Here ya go with the updated Feng Huang. As far as saying i was doing it i didnt even think about it, i read your post before work on my phone and like most long posts, i just skim.



Also;

[Dave Baughman]

Here ya go with the updated Feng Huang. As far as saying i was doing it i didnt even think about it, i read your post before work on my phone and like most long posts, i just skim.



Also;

11/10, mister trollface

Thank you for adding the FH2, its not in MegaMek currently and I totally forgot about it!