Mobile Ground Units: ideas and advice WITHIN THE RULES!!

[Cannonshop]

Tab: Ground forces
Unit Type; "combined Arms", "mech", "armor", "infantry"
Movement Type: Mobile or LFB mobile.

Now, you stakka-dakka's are probably wondering why anyone in their right mind (or wrong mind, for that matter) would dump 6X or 10X the RP cost for one of these.

There IS a method, to the madness in creating "Mobile" ground forces.

Gaze ye, upon "The Map" for a moment, and let your twisted mind wander through "The Rules".

Mobile units can fill a useful niche in any state's forces, from the dinky little UIW, right up to the nearly almighty Dominion, Free Worlds League, or Lyran/Falcon alliance.

The "Niche" spot, is dedicated raiding units-that is, units that can be used to raid, or screen ahead of your more expensive to move "Transported" ground units, and the reason is thus:

It costeth nothing from ye Cycle Pool (or Permanent Pool) to use them.

The Niche, is the same that Cavalry served back when Horses were a battlefield asset.  Mobile units are..."MOBILE".  They don't eat MP, and can (in LFB form) strike at distances that Transported forces can't match, allowing for deeper raiding against large-territory enemies, greater speed (in turns) movement to positions for strikes against an enemy's vulnerable (thanks to his use of STakkodhoom) rear areas, or just a fast reinforcement on a front a little further from your own lines.

Because they are GROUND units, they can resource-raid or Destructive-raid enemy assets that are immune to normal Naval raiding.  Because they are mobile, they open options for factions that aren't swimming in extra MP every turn, allowing a greater flexibility of assets when you're planning your attacks-instead of being forced into an either/or decision, Mobile forces as part of a well-balanced layout grant the ability to reach deeper, or further, to strike valuable (and often vulnerable) heavy-asset sites, or to strike in ways your opponent is not expecting-such as pulling an end-run through "clear space" hexes to arrive un-announced on his back porch.

Because the chief use of such line-items IS basically dedicated raiding units, it is best to keep your builds relatively compact (which, given the cost, isn't a bad idea anyhow), I'd suggest for maximum usefulness, somewhere between 5 and 10 points per, and no more than 1 of 6 to 1 of 9 line-items proportionally.  Ten point units are the largest force you can apply to any single dedicated raiding target, I go with 5 pointers so that they can be partnered with an equivalent naval unit in case there's enemy air-cover in your target zone, but that's what works for me.  Your own mileage may vary a bit.

Best use, is as part of an overall strategy-work your raiders in as part of a general offensive that includes the rest of the tactical menu:

Naval Recon
Naval raiding (with mobile naval forces)
Surface Raiding/recon raids
Invasion orders (both Commerce disruption on non-targets that are vulnerable, such as border hexes or isolated hex zones)
Invasion of Ground Targets (with Blockade or Naval interdictions.)
Naval Patrols

Spread the love-Mobile raiders should be focused on hexes that may be targets NEXT turn.  As should Naval recons and (where practicable) Commerce interdictions.  The idea is to spread the damage around, while taking as little as possible, ideally your methods should reduce the target faction's ability to replace losses or reinforce his garrisons during the period of your attack.
A raiding force that plunges five or more hexes into a target faction ahead of their backup is there to shake things loose, steal what isn't nailed down, and damage the enemy's ability to respond quickly and with decisive force-if you have the luxury, it's a good idea to have several of these packet-forces out for every world you actually intend to take.

for other cavalry missions, such as quick reinforcement or end-runs, your Mobile forces might serve well to move as a group-for a while.  It's not that hard to draw them together for a few turns, just keep hte line-items separated, and when they reach the destination, you now have as many directions you can raid in, as you have mobile forces-and you're still free to move your bigger, transported units, at normal speed, drawing from the cyclical pool-the idea is to push the front of the fighting around.  Mobile ground units can invade-which Naval really can't, and they can hold territory-provided you're either fairly lucky in Simres, or fairly good in Megamek.  This means that you can, in theory at least, carry out invasions well away from your own home territory-such as moving from the FedSuns to the Marian Hegemony in a single turn, without neediing to use the Military Factory magic-Carpet.

The drawback, of course, is construction cost- a 5-hex unit at 5 FP is going to cost you 30 RP to build-now, while that tends to look like a bad bargain, it's not.  That 5 FP unit can move all 5 hexes, without costing 25 MP to do it.

When the rest of your offensive is able to consume up to a thousand MP to move the same distance (or less, in some cases, such as the 200FP Regiments that the FWL or Falcons are throwing around), the ability to hit two, three, or even four hexes deeper than you can, in fact, invade, can be rather useful.  If you spent the 50RP to build that 5FP as LFB, that's zero movement cost to dash 10 hexes deep against an enemy, or ten hexes around his flank-to hit him where he isn't protected, or even looking at the moment.  Enemy players who leave their factory worlds unguarded (or very lightly guarded) can be open to a whole series of hurts and insults by this method.

[Daemonknight]

Except that you can only do a single raid on a planet once per turn. So you can't do a Naval Recon, and Resource Raid against the same planet. Or any combination of raids. If you run a Naval Recon against a planet, you can't target it with anything else, except for Commerce Disruption(because thats an Invasion-type order).


And as for penetrating someone's hexes, if it's a hostile faction, you're going to be potentially stopped at every hex along your path by enemy forces, wether it be national forces or militia. So actually getting 10 hexes deep, is hugely unlikely. Getting even 5 hexes deep, means you need to pass 5 Initiative checks or be stopped.

[chaosxtreme]

Since when is 5 Hex's deep even possible? I mean with a combat order.

You go more then 2 hex's deep you can't raid until the next turn.

That is still the case right?

[Fatebringer]

Except that you can only do a single raid on a planet once per turn. So you can't do a Naval Recon, and Resource Raid against the same planet. Or any combination of raids. If you run a Naval Recon against a planet, you can't target it with anything else, except for Commerce Disruption(because thats an Invasion-type order).

It has been declared many times in the past that a Naval recon is against a "system" not a planet and therefore does not violate the raid rule.

I loved what Raginar did. Do a a small Naval recon raid. If that's successful and you KNOW there are no defenders in the system, run your larger Resource raid crew in without having to use a Pirate Point.

When I first started, I didn't understand that I could do a Naval Recon Raid and follow it up with a Naval Engagement. When it first happened, I thought it was wrong, but then I was proven wrong and frankly it makes sense. Why would you want to do a Naval recon one turn and follow it up with the Naval Engagement next turn. I mean, by then the guy can re-inforce.

And as for penetrating someone's hexes, if it's a hostile faction, you're going to be potentially stopped at every hex along your path by enemy forces, wether it be national forces or militia. So actually getting 10 hexes deep, is hugely unlikely. Getting even 5 hexes deep, means you need to pass 5 Initiative checks or be stopped.

Since when is 5 Hex's deep even possible? I mean with a combat order.

You go more then 2 hex's deep you can't raid until the next turn.

That is still the case right?

I'm not sure if DK's example is a raid force. I moved 5 hexes thru the LC to get to the FWL but I got Safcon. I posted it as Hostile because DK found out some of my guys tried to blow up his IC. I wanted to not show up claiming "Hey friend!" That would just be hypocritical of me.

Had I not been granted Safcon, I would have gone anyway.

[Cannonshop]

Except that you can only do a single raid on a planet once per turn. So you can't do a Naval Recon, and Resource Raid against the same planet. Or any combination of raids. If you run a Naval Recon against a planet, you can't target it with anything else, except for Commerce Disruption(because thats an Invasion-type order).


And as for penetrating someone's hexes, if it's a hostile faction, you're going to be potentially stopped at every hex along your path by enemy forces, wether it be national forces or militia. So actually getting 10 hexes deep, is hugely unlikely. Getting even 5 hexes deep, means you need to pass 5 Initiative checks or be stopped.

#2 He's got to react-which means those forces aren't available to him to react to whatever else you're doing somewhere else.  Also: does this mean Militia have Aero now?


as for item the first, I think Fatebringer's answer is better worded than any I could give, save this:

Why in hell is Commerce disruption an invasion order?  Everything in the structure of the rule itself, save the name, screams "Raid"-you're not changing the hex colour, you don't affect anything on-the-ground directly, the enemy can theoretically keep building up his forces in the system (pretty has to if he can-no other way to catch those filthy pirates!)
and the resources generated aren't continuously present for the attacking party-whereas with an invasion, they are.

was it a 'game balance' issue?   Did someone brutally abuse this rule and force a change?  Inquiring minds wanna know.

[chaosxtreme]

Except that you can only do a single raid on a planet once per turn. So you can't do a Naval Recon, and Resource Raid against the same planet. Or any combination of raids. If you run a Naval Recon against a planet, you can't target it with anything else, except for Commerce Disruption(because thats an Invasion-type order).

It has been declared many times in the past that a Naval recon is against a "system" not a planet and therefore does not violate the raid rule.

I loved what Raginar did. Do a a small Naval recon raid. If that's successful and you KNOW there are no defenders in the system, run your larger Resource raid crew in without having to use a Pirate Point.

When I first started, I didn't understand that I could do a Naval Recon Raid and follow it up with a Naval Engagement. When it first happened, I thought it was wrong, but then I was proven wrong and frankly it makes sense. Why would you want to do a Naval recon one turn and follow it up with the Naval Engagement next turn. I mean, by then the guy can re-inforce.

And as for penetrating someone's hexes, if it's a hostile faction, you're going to be potentially stopped at every hex along your path by enemy forces, wether it be national forces or militia. So actually getting 10 hexes deep, is hugely unlikely. Getting even 5 hexes deep, means you need to pass 5 Initiative checks or be stopped.

Since when is 5 Hex's deep even possible? I mean with a combat order.

You go more then 2 hex's deep you can't raid until the next turn.

That is still the case right?

I'm not sure if DK's example is a raid force. I moved 5 hexes thru the LC to get to the FWL but I got Safcon. I posted it as Hostile because DK found out some of my guys tried to blow up his IC. I wanted to not show up claiming "Hey friend!" That would just be hypocritical of me.

Had I not been granted Safcon, I would have gone anyway.

Gone anyway sure, and gotten through but once you are using Hostile movement you fall into the 1 hex deep for invasion 2 hex deep for raid trap for the turn.

This mean's you move with a transported invasion force 5 hex's deep on lets call it turn X+1.

Your target is 6 hex's deep into hostile territory. The next turn on x+2 you move that additional hex and attack.

I as the defender while I could not get force's moving on x+1 was able to bring forces from within a 5 hex radius in turn X+2 to deal with your invasion, mind you this is all assuming that I do not even oppose your hostile movement with any forces in turn's X+1 or X+2 except for when you arrive at your target (and to be fair I also had to guess your target that you were deep penetrating to get to).


That's why most people don't deploy force's to the "interior" other then capitals and other key worlds. There is nowhere someone is going to "deep penetrate to" and can attack that is 2 hex's deep from the border on one turn. And if you can not get force's from somewhere within 2 at most 3 turn's your not defending that border at all anyway.

Under the rule's something like McCarron's Long March is not really possible. Which is ok we have a good system. And in Canon it was considered a viable defense. "Concentrated Weakness the Elsies called it.

Worked even better for the Federated Sun's but they called it something else because they understand PR. :-)

[Cannonshop]

Except that you can only do a single raid on a planet once per turn. So you can't do a Naval Recon, and Resource Raid against the same planet. Or any combination of raids. If you run a Naval Recon against a planet, you can't target it with anything else, except for Commerce Disruption(because thats an Invasion-type order).

It has been declared many times in the past that a Naval recon is against a "system" not a planet and therefore does not violate the raid rule.

I loved what Raginar did. Do a a small Naval recon raid. If that's successful and you KNOW there are no defenders in the system, run your larger Resource raid crew in without having to use a Pirate Point.

When I first started, I didn't understand that I could do a Naval Recon Raid and follow it up with a Naval Engagement. When it first happened, I thought it was wrong, but then I was proven wrong and frankly it makes sense. Why would you want to do a Naval recon one turn and follow it up with the Naval Engagement next turn. I mean, by then the guy can re-inforce.

And as for penetrating someone's hexes, if it's a hostile faction, you're going to be potentially stopped at every hex along your path by enemy forces, wether it be national forces or militia. So actually getting 10 hexes deep, is hugely unlikely. Getting even 5 hexes deep, means you need to pass 5 Initiative checks or be stopped.

Since when is 5 Hex's deep even possible? I mean with a combat order.

You go more then 2 hex's deep you can't raid until the next turn.

That is still the case right?

I'm not sure if DK's example is a raid force. I moved 5 hexes thru the LC to get to the FWL but I got Safcon. I posted it as Hostile because DK found out some of my guys tried to blow up his IC. I wanted to not show up claiming "Hey friend!" That would just be hypocritical of me.

Had I not been granted Safcon, I would have gone anyway.

Gone anyway sure, and gotten through but once you are using Hostile movement you fall into the 1 hex deep for invasion 2 hex deep for raid trap for the turn.

This mean's you move with a transported invasion force 5 hex's deep on lets call it turn X+1.

Your target is 6 hex's deep into hostile territory. The next turn on x+2 you move that additional hex and attack.

I as the defender while I could not get force's moving on x+1 was able to bring forces from within a 5 hex radius in turn X+2 to deal with your invasion, mind you this is all assuming that I do not even oppose your hostile movement with any forces in turn's X+1 or X+2 except for when you arrive at your target (and to be fair I also had to guess your target that you were deep penetrating to get to).


That's why most people don't deploy force's to the "interior" other then capitals and other key worlds. There is nowhere someone is going to "deep penetrate to" and can attack that is 2 hex's deep from the border on one turn. And if you can not get force's from somewhere within 2 at most 3 turn's your not defending that border at all anyway.

Under the rule's something like McCarron's Long March is not really possible. Which is ok we have a good system. And in Canon it was considered a viable defense. "Concentrated Weakness the Elsies called it.

Worked even better for the Federated Sun's but they called it something else because they understand PR. :-)

and that explains the popularity of doomstacking-and the prevalence of transported aero.  Why bother with something that CAN move, when you're never going to actually USE IT?

[chaosxtreme]

Correction when your never going to be able to actually use it.

Honestly I looked at it. It is more effective for me to build transported aero brigades on each possible front. Then it is for me to build Lifu mobile Aero.

Better too.

Because each additional transported aero brigade I build is providing what? 10% of the MP I need to move a unit 1 hex. Which if your invading is all you need to move anyway.

So on an invasion attack. Say I built 10 FP on 10 front's 9 of which I am not attacking on I now have 9 hex's with an additional 1FP of defensive aero should my neighbors attack for that 1FP that is invading 1 hex deep.

It is just simply a better deal then paying x10 for 1FP of Aero that will then move.


- I have paid the same amount of RP and MF/SY Construction space.

- I have more defense along my border's and on top of all that the Movement is still free.

- In fact it is better because I can use that movement on a different unit if I choose too.


Mind you having some mobile make's sense for factions with deep periphery intention's. Built some for the Viper's. But for a large faction that has SY, and has MF's... there really is no point.

There is nothing I can do with mobile force's that I can't do with Command Circuit's.

[Fatebringer]

I know you can't invade more than 1 hex deep, and you can't Raid more than two hexes deep, but I've never seen anything that says you can't move more than that. I thought you could move, but you just can't target anything that is past two hexes. Also, technically my move never went bast two into his interior because I was 1 hex deep, 2 hexes deep, 2 hexes deep, and then 1 hex deep before I left his space.... all hexes were raidable targets. But my final destination was a friendly hex.

[Fatebringer]

lets not jump into the construction rules again here. We have this arguement posted elsewhere

[Cannonshop]

Correction when your never going to be able to actually use it.

Honestly I looked at it. It is more effective for me to build transported aero brigades on each possible front. Then it is for me to build Lifu mobile Aero.

Better too.

Because each additional transported aero brigade I build is providing what? 10% of the MP I need to move a unit 1 hex. Which if your invading is all you need to move anyway.

So on an invasion attack. Say I built 10 FP on 10 front's 9 of which I am not attacking on I now have 9 hex's with an additional 1FP of defensive aero should my neighbors attack for that 1FP that is invading 1 hex deep.

It is just simply a better deal then paying x10 for 1FP of Aero that will then move.


- I have paid the same amount of RP and MF/SY Construction space.

- I have more defense along my border's and on top of all that the Movement is still free.

- In fact it is better because I can use that movement on a different unit if I choose too.


Mind you having some mobile make's sense for factions with deep periphery intention's. Built some for the Viper's. But for a large faction that has SY, and has MF's... there really is no point.

There is nothing I can do with mobile force's that I can't do with Command Circuit's.

Can't/Won't-what's the difference beyond semantics? and I still question when the free Militia point got Aero capability to stop you from moving through.

[chaosxtreme]

There is no free Militia in my proposal. I am building 1 FP of Aero in 10 place's and attacking with 1,  in this scenario.

Hostile Movement is Hostile Movement and you have to remember this is "Grand Strategy".

Expecting to be able to move about as you please in enemy territory as fast as you would move through your own territory is not plausible.

Everything from having to run more patrol's, deploying and un-deploying jump sail's only once you are sure your not going to have to run in a hurry, and a million other reason's I can come up with if you want.

[Cannonshop]

There is no free Militia in my proposal. I am building 1 FP of Aero in 10 place's and attacking with 1,  in this scenario.

Hostile Movement is Hostile Movement and you have to remember this is "Grand Strategy".

Expecting to be able to move about as you please in enemy territory as fast as you would move through your own territory is not plausible.

Everything from having to run more patrol's, deploying and un-deploying jump sail's only once you are sure your not going to have to run in a hurry, and a million other reason's I can come up with if you want.

My point is, making an opponent spend the resources to PUT that fp of transported out there, makes the exercise worth it.  He either puts it out there, or he stands by in impotence, and being able to lateral across and hit from an angle that he can't always predict is useful.  Now, I'll put in mind that in the only war I got to start all by myself, nowhere on my opponent's map was he more than two hexes either from one of my direct borders, or open space (which is where a lot of my attacks DID originate in turn 2), so I overlooked a specific quibble in the rules that I should've been more keenly aware of.

Which is another reason to put up articles and discussions like this-Learning is GOOD, and I avoid the embarassment of giving a new player bad advice.

But...for future reference: I think the two-hex deep raiding limit, while it apparently is in the rules, is rather silly when you already have a FP limitation and a limit on how many raids you can conduct against a single target, and you're limited to one-hex-deep on invasions.   I acknowledge the legality of it, and haven't violated it yet (nor do I intend to) but it IS a dumb rule imho.

All games have some rules that are flatly boneheaded-there has never been a game that did not.   We learn to work around them.

which is also the purpose of articles and discussions like this.  (PLEASE no Coventry references...)

[chaosxtreme]

Oh no disagreement here.

I have been lamenting those rule's since I ran smack dab into them as commander of the Blood Spirit Invasion.

It was completely impossible even unopposed to move any faster then I moved.

Even without a change to the blockade rule.

If you could continue invading until you ran into resistance. Requiring X amount of FP per world. Or continue raiding until you ran into resistance requiring X amount of FP per world it would completely change the stack and grand wave strategies.

[Fatebringer]

The reason given was logistical and to avoid people jumping past borders to hit high production worlds and capitols without repercussions.

I still question when the free Militia point got Aero capability to stop you from moving through.

I was confused by the threads between Parm and Raginar regarding the massive amounts of raids. I tried to sort things out and hope there wasn't just some rule posted on the fly that allowed Aerospace militia.