Rules Discussion

[Dave Baughman]

This thread is for discussing the current rules.

[Dave Baughman]

So I was sitting in bed failing at falling asleep and an idea came to me. If had always struck me that the game does not have an adequate mechanism for obtaining "pristine examples" of technology by means other than trade. Building on the salvage overhaul in the 'real salvage' thread, what are your thoughts of...

Salvage Cashin

Salvage Piles can be cashed in at any industrial hex improvement (RF, MF, or SY) or any R&D hex improvement (types to be filled in as the R&D rules mature). Salvage generates resource points similar to negotiables (though the negotiables value modifiers don't apply); there is always a certain amount of waste, which varies based on where the salvage is processed.

To determine the amount of RP recaptured, roll on the curved results table. Apply a +2 modifier to the roll if reprocessing is occuring at an MF or SY, and a -3 modifier if it is being reprocessed at an R&D hex improvements. Salvage cashed in at an RF is a flat roll.

Curved Results table
2d6      Percentage of salvage converted to RP
-1     50*
0      20*
1      10*
2      0
3      0
4      5
5      5
6      10
7      15
8      20
9      30
10      40
11      60
12      80
13      90
14      90*

*In addition to the results indicated, roll on the special salvage table.

Special Salvage (2d6)
2-5     Obtain a pristine example of an enemy 'Mech or Aerospace Fighter**
6-8     Obtain a pristine example of an enemy vehicle, battle armor, or protomech design**.
9-10    Obtain a pristine example of an enemy technology component
11       Obtain pristine examples of two enemy technology components
12       Roll twice, re-rolling addition results of "12"

**Randomly determine from equipment tables if possible. If no random table exists, a GM will determine which designs were obtained. All examples so obtained must be reverse-engineered before they are added to the faction's intellectual property.


Salvage designation

Due to the possibility of obtaining faction technology through special salvage, salvage must be identified on the commodities tab of the faction owning it. The following information must be listed:

1. That the commodity is Salvage
2. What hex it was generated in
3. What faction(s) were the enemy
4. The number of FP in the salvage pool

For example: "Salvage-2525-TH-25"

Splitting Salvage

One idea is that Salvage can be split for transport purposes (to allow big piles to be moved out), but this needs to be done in a way to prevent exploiting (such as breaking off a 0.25 chunk to cash in at a PF and sending the rest to an MF). Rules will have to follow to regulate this kind of action. The alternative would be to not allow splitting, and just say "build a hex improvement in that hex or bring in a mobile hex improvement and cash it in on-site," but I'm not sure I prefer taking a hard line. The final fate of this rule will pretty much come down to find a good, consistent, and non-exploitable way to allow the breaks. It may be as simple as saying that split salvage doesn't generate special results.

Actually, I kind of like that.

[chaosxtreme]

I like this.

And I like what your talking about with preventing the .25 and heap going to an MF.

maybe a bonus for large amounts of salvage?

I.E. massive battle where the salvage pool was 100-150+ potential salvage has a better chance of generating a special salvage roll then a roll against raiding/squashing a 1FP militia?

Perhaps a bonus for MM too but meh. I don't want to push it. :-)

[Holt]

The chart is too easy, their aren't many canon examples of this happening that often, only one I can think of is the axeman. Maybe you need an 11 to succed modified by a bonus for large enemy FP salvaged, something like a +1 to the roll for every 50FP.

[Dave Baughman]

The chart is too easy, their aren't many canon examples of this happening that often, only one I can think of is the axeman. Maybe you need an 11 to succed modified by a bonus for large enemy FP salvaged, something like a +1 to the roll for every 50FP.

On the current chart you need either a natural 12 (MF or SY - 3% change), or a 2-4 (PF - 16% chance). Cash-in at a repair facility has no chance of special salvage. I could see the PF version being only on a 2-3, which would be the same as an 11-12 as you suggested (and I will consider this).

As to large salvage amounts, the main reason I don't want to put this in is that I don't want anything to exist in the game that rewards doomstack style combat. The idea of a MegaMek incentive is interesting, but as Holt said special salvage should be fairly rare... such an incentive should probably go more towards the pool size than to the cash-in roll.

[chaosxtreme]

Good reason's all around. Thank you for all your work on this.

I think this will be a fun addition to the game when it is added.

[Dave Baughman]

In case folks are curious, the naval boarding rule that is being patched in turn 5 should have been implemented a long time ago. The ruling that Tactical Ops and Strat Ops superceded that rule was made during Ashenwelt during Second Sudeten, but apparently was never updated in the rules thread back then. Since them, I did not notice it still had the old language.

My apologies for the oversight.

[Fatebringer]

Due to lack of interest, the PC mercenaries pilot program is abolished.

Yeah, I had too many issues with that. I know how the RP can screw you as a Merc...

[chaosxtreme]

Overall I like the Mercenary Rules.

However some factions (yeah mainly me but not only me) went out and bought out other faction's mercs.

Kell's moved to the Outworlds and then married into the Royal Family.

There was RP on the GDL getting a landhold in the Free Worlds Lyran space.

Other former Lyran Line Unit's and Merc's got sold off.

Under the current rule proposal the Lyran's will get a bonus for trying to rehire the Kell Hound's and they shouldn't because they took loyal Morgan Kell out and shot him (not the current Lyran player but we are all stuck with what our previous faction head's did like mine making the Terries hate us more/(almost as much) as then Clanners.

All I am suggesting is that there should be some kind of bonus for long term service to an Employer during the FGC so far and moving forward. I am not going to suggest a modifier as your much better at balancing things (if you decide to do this) then I am.

I.E. if you hang onto a merc now for 24 turn's yeah it should be possible to still lose that unit to another faction but it should be hard.

Or perhaps a friendliness to merc's bonus that you have to pay for (but that seem's real easy to break so I am just suggesting as every way I have thought of to do this I end up seeing how to break it as a large or small faction).

[Dave Baughman]

Let me address the Kells in particular first and then the bigger issue. The LC is not the Kells' exclusive client (they were working for the FRR in 3049), so no bonus there. The LC is also a member of the Grand Council (-1 penalty there) so they are actually at a disadvantage trying to hire the Kell Hounds.

On a broader point though, there will be a small number of "asterisks" with additional criteria for certain units. The Kells, for example, probably won't accept offers from the LC at all due to the way their family was systematically abused by the LC government. Likewise, the Wolf Dragoons probably won't be signing on with any Grand Council member any time soon.

I considered a long-term employment bonus based on FGC history, but ultimately I decided to leave it out - mainly because of how the vast majority of NPC mercenaries were acquired in the early days of the rules. There is a bonus for employment history under the new rules, but the old system was broken and resulted in a completely static mercenary hiring system. Leaving it in place would be contrary to the purpose of the new system, which is to reflect the way the vast majority of mercenary units operate in the I.S. rather than turning them into de-facto house units. For what its worth though, we are going to be adding more mercenary commands (both previously-unused canon units and a few non-canon units), so there will be lots to choose from in terms of potential employees.

I actually kind of like the idea of a "good reputation" bonus for some employers, but you're right - it would be difficult to balance since such a bonus would tend to favor the larger factions over the smaller ones, and bonuses that effectively increase 'cost of business' for small factions aren't really good game design. I will, going forward, look at other ways to implement something like that and if I can find a good solution I'll integrate it into the rules.

Overall I like the Mercenary Rules.

However some factions (yeah mainly me but not only me) went out and bought out other faction's mercs.

Kell's moved to the Outworlds and then married into the Royal Family.

There was RP on the GDL getting a landhold in the Free Worlds Lyran space.

Other former Lyran Line Unit's and Merc's got sold off.

Under the current rule proposal the Lyran's will get a bonus for trying to rehire the Kell Hound's and they shouldn't because they took loyal Morgan Kell out and shot him (not the current Lyran player but we are all stuck with what our previous faction head's did like mine making the Terries hate us more/(almost as much) as then Clanners.

All I am suggesting is that there should be some kind of bonus for long term service to an Employer during the FGC so far and moving forward. I am not going to suggest a modifier as your much better at balancing things (if you decide to do this) then I am.

I.E. if you hang onto a merc now for 24 turn's yeah it should be possible to still lose that unit to another faction but it should be hard.

Or perhaps a friendliness to merc's bonus that you have to pay for (but that seem's real easy to break so I am just suggesting as every way I have thought of to do this I end up seeing how to break it as a large or small faction).

[Parmenion]

i'm sorry, but why are we even talking about the Kell Hounds as being a mercenary unit?  They are a regular formation of the Horse Alliance and in no way can be considered a unit for hire.  They are the primary defenders for one of the Outworlds region provinces, and they are still linked by marriage (and now also by offspring) to the Avellar line. With the formation of the HA, I left what KH elements were in the CapCon in place, as that was an agreement initiated by the previous OWA leader, however after twenty years I had that agreement being as run it's course, and brought the units home.

 

[chaosxtreme]

Bottomline parm is that the Hounds were all over the place. Actually acting like a mercenary rather then a House unit.

You can make a case for the Hounds you took in but they are still merc's on your sheet not House units quaiff?

(How the Horse's stomach it I do not know).

Fact is FWL has a bunch of Lyran line unit's that went merc and a bunch of Lyran mercs.

They are affected by this. Heck some I gave landhold's and defended from prosecution even more. It is still legitimate that they be affected by this.

Point being. Merc's are merc's. I didn't understand why when I came in they were all super loyal to their existing employer's and were unbribeable (even the bad one's).

[Daemonknight]

That arrangement hasn't been communicated to the current GM team, and there are still 2 Hounds regiments listed as mercs on the CapCon sheet. I will have to look back through PMs, but I believe there was a discussion with DR6(still GM at the time), that made for those 2 regiments to be led by a more distant branch of the Kell line that had not followed the main body into the OWA/HA.

Like I said, will try and find that convo, but the Kell Hounds outside those in the CapCon are most definetly NOT mercenaries anymore, unless the HA decides to hire them out.

[Daemonknight]

Bottomline parm is that the Hounds were all over the place. Actually acting like a mercenary rather then a House unit.

You can make a case for the Hounds you took in but they are still merc's on your sheet not House units quaiff?

(How the Horse's stomach it I do not know).

Fact is FWL has a bunch of Lyran line unit's that went merc and a bunch of Lyran mercs.

They are affected by this. Heck some I gave landhold's and defended from prosecution even more. It is still legitimate that they be affected by this.

Point being. Merc's are merc's. I didn't understand why when I came in they were all super loyal to their existing employer's and were unbribeable (even the bad one's).

Just as an FYI, mercenary loyalty is not going to be initially in the rules(so bribery is still out for the moment). However, rules for unit loyalty will be introduced eventually, allowing mercs to behave like real mercs.

[chaosxtreme]

Huh well then well done Parm.

Wish I had thought of turning merc's into non-merc's.

I would have done it with some of the unit's of long standing citizen's honoured style.