Rule Idea: Morale/Loyalty

[Daemonknight]

So its been bugging me for quite awhile that we have those loyalty ratings but we don't actually utilize them for anything at the moment. Instead of calling it just 'Loyalty', I think we should call it 'Reliability'. It takes into account the unit's fighting morale aswell as their loyalty to their faction(or employer in the case of mercenaries).

How about this:

Unreliable: If outnumbered(on offense) at the beginning of an operational round, roll 2d6. On a roll of 10+, the unit refuses to take part in the combat.

If outnumbered(on defense) at the beginning of an operational round, roll 2d6. On a roll of 10+, the unit will flee, leaving 2d6+5% of it's FP behind as abandonded salvage. If outnumbered 2:1 or more, on a roll of 10+, they will immediately surrender to the enemy. If they are outnumbered 4:1 or more, on a roll of 11-12, the unit will rebel against their faction and join the enemy forces for the duration of the combat. If their faction wins, they lose 2d6x5% of their FP to desertions, 'retirement' and dishonorable discharges, and lose 1 skill level(minimum Green). If the attacking faction takes the planet, the unit attempts to defect, keeping their skill level and 'Unreliable' rating.

If this unit loses more than 50% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed(immediately attempts to retreat, using Run Blockade in the following operational round if nessecary). The rout does not carry over into the following turn(being routed in the 6th operational round has no effect).

Unreliable mercenaries will occasionally break their contracts for money, usually if it is a considerable sum, AND the unit is offered safety from the MRBC(occasionally, they will ask for citizenship and a landhold). Usually, an Unreliable mercenary's starting price is 500% of their total FP value(includes FP of any jumpships the unit possesses which are not listed when up for hire). Some unreliable mercenaries have taken the money, then attempted to get their current employer to match or better the offer. Unreliable mercenaries are often conniving when such offers are offered, so take care when dealing under the table with such units. They cannot(obviously) be trusted.



Questionable: If outnumbered(on offense) at the beginning of an operational round, roll 2d6. On a 10-11, the unit loses any bonus FP from skill ratings. On a roll of 12, the unit refuses to take part in the combat, and retreats from the theatre. If a unit retreats twice without a change in reliability, downgrade it to Unreliable.

If outnumbered(on defense) at the beginning of an operational round, roll 2d6. On a 12, the unit loses any bonus FP from skill ratings. If the unit is outnumbered 2:1 or worse and rolls a 12, it flees instead, losing 2d6% of it's FP as equipment is abandoned(add this FP to the salvage pool). If the planet is lost in the same Turn as this unit fleeing a defensive battle, downgrade it to Unreliable.

If this unit loses more than 60% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed(immediately attempts to retreat, using Run Blockade in the following operational round if nessecary). The rout does not carry over into the following turn(being routed in the 6th operational round has no effect).

Questionable mercenaries will occasionally break their contracts for money, usually if it is a considerable sum AND is promised a landhold. Usually, a Questionable mercenary's starting price is 500% of their total FP value(includes FP of any jumpships the unit possesses which are not listed when up for hire). Questionable mercenaries have been known to take the money from such offers without actually taking on the new contract. Occasionally, their commanders break up the unit, take the money and run, but this is rare.



Reliable: If outnumbered(offense or defense) by 2:1 or more, roll 2d6. On an 11-12, this unit loses its FP bonus from skill ratings.

If this unit loses more than 70% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed(immediately attempts to retreat, using Run Blockade in the following operational round if nessecary). The rout does not carry over into the following turn(being routed in the 6th operational round has no effect).

Reliable mercenaries will generally not break their contracts for money, unless it is a massive sum AND is promised a landhold or is inducted into the House armed forces. Usually, a Reliable mercenary's starting price is 700% of their total FP value(includes FP of any jumpships the unit possesses which are not listed when up for hire). Reliable mercenaries have been known to accept the money from such offers without breaking their contracts, and informing the MRBC of the offer.



Fanatical: This unit will never rout, flee, or lose its skill bonuses because of being outnumbered. It also cannot be bought(for mercenaries)/turned against its House.

[Fatebringer]

If this unit loses more than 50% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed(immediately attempts to retreat, using Run Blockade in the following operational round if nessecary). The rout does not carry over into the following turn(being routed in the 6th operational round has no effect).

That is an awful lot to remember. I would like to say keeping "Routed" as a standard Definition is a good idea. I don't know if you added it to the rule, but I like it.

Before continuing, I'd like to say I've always liked the idea of customizable VIP's. If we do get more in depth VIP's, I think the following would be nice.

Inspire Loyalty - Whether thru Love or Fear, this VIP is respected enough that their presence bolsters their troops confidence. Treat all of that faction's units present a units as if they are are 1 Loyalty Rating Higher.

Greater Inspire Loyalty - Same as with Inspire Loyalty, but treat all friendly units as if they are are 1 Loyalty Rating Higher. This include Mercenaries & Joint Coalition Allies.

Loyalty bonuses do not stack, but if one VIP with the bonus goes down and another is present, the bonus would not be interrupted.


Unreliable - If things have gotten that bad where you consider someone Unrelaible, it should reflect in the actions.

When outnumbered roll and on 8 or higher the unreliable unit will either be shaken and refuse to fight or will attempt to evade via the best option possible as if Routed.
When unreliable units attempt to evade, the fleeing unit will leave 2d6+5% of it's FP behind as abandonded salvage and rolls immediately for Skill Retention.
When outnumbered 2:1+, if the roll was 10 or 11, the unit will surrender, on a 12, the unit will offer to join the other side.
When unreliable units attempt to surrender or switch sides, even if their side wins, they lose 2d6x5% of their FP and rolls immediately for Skill Retention.
If the attacking faction takes the planet, the unit attempts to defect, keeping their skill level and 'Unreliable' rating.

Unreliable mercenaries will occasionally break their contracts for money, usually if it is a considerable sum

(So true)

Unreliable (Merc) - Special rules for Mercenaries
When making an offer to by off an unreliable mercenary unit to leave a battle, the Faction Leader must send a PM to the Head GM with their cash bid. A faction may only bid what is currently available to them on the turn of the battle and if successful, funds would tranfer immediately as if spent that turn.

If the bid is equal to or  greater than 2 times the full amount of the contract (Contract bid x 5%) , the mercenaries will leave the battle. If the bid is equal to or greater then 5 times the full amount of the contract the Mercenaries will immediately switch sides. The actions of the Mercenaries would be unknown to both sides until the next combat round when the Head GM announces them.

An attempt to subvert a contracted military unit wether successful or not will be noted in the employer rating. (If this option becomes applicable)
A Mercenary unit that leaves combat or turns on their employer will be immediated reported to the MRBC for pending actions.


Questionable: Sometimes it's nerves, somethings it's just a firestorm of bad luck, or maybe the unit is made up of outsiders and is not trusted.

When outnumbered roll and on 10 or 11 the questionable unit will be shaken and refuse to fight. On a 12, the will attempt to evade via the best option possible as if Routed.
When questionable units attempt to evade, the fleeing unit will leave 2d6% of it's FP behind as abandonded salvage and rolls immediately for Skill Retention.
When outnumbered 2:1+ on a 12, the questionable unit will Surrender
When questionable units attempt to surrender or switch sides they lose 2d6% of their FP and rolls immediately for Skill Retention.
If this unit loses more than 60% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed.
If the planet is lost in the same Turn as this unit fleeing a defensive battle, downgrade it to Unreliable.
If a unit retreats for two turns in a row, downgrade it to Unreliable.

(I don't agree with a unit losing it's skill ratings for any reason. Even cowards know how to fight even if they opt to run.)

Questionable (Merc) - Special rules for Mercenaries
Same as when making an offer to buy off an unreliable mercenary unit to leave a battle except the amounts are 4 times the full amount of the contract to leave and 8 times the full amount to switch sides.


Reliable: Your average soldier. Yo Joe!

When outnumbered 2:1 roll and on 10 or 11 the reliable unit will be shaken and refuse to fight. On a 12, the will attempt to evade via the best option possible as if Routed.
When reliable units attempt to evade, the fleeing unit will leave 1d6% of it's FP behind.
When outnumbered 4:1+ on a 12, the reliable unit will Surrender
When reliable units attempt to surrender or switch sides they lose 1d6% of their FP and rolls immediately for Skill Retention.
If this unit loses more than 70% of it's total FP in a single operational round, it is routed.
If the reliable units retreats and the planet  and loses a planet for two turns in a row due to them fleeing a defensive battle, downgrade it to Questionable.

Reliable (Merc) - Special rules for Mercenaries
Same as when making an offer to buy off an unreliable mercenary unit to leave a battle except the amounts are 5 times the full amount of the contract to leave and 10 times the full amount to switch sides. An attempt to turn a Regular Mercanary unit must include some form of landhold or position in the house guard or the unit will only leave and not turn.

Fanatical: This unit cannot be routed or forced to surrender.

Fanatical (Merc): In addition to standard Fanatical, this unit cannot be bought or turned against their employer. (You get what you pay for! )

[Daemonknight]

At this time, there are no customizable VIP rules. They become very complicated very fast, and once we make one, people are going to want one for every possible sector of the game: military commanders(then they will want ground AND naval commanders), researchers, diplomats, traders, industrialists. While I'd love to be able to make it happen, it's just a lot of work. If it comes about, it'll be a ways into the game.

I think that putting down a single definition of the term 'Rout' is a good idea ahead of implementing any reliability rules, because they would rely heavily on it.

[Iron Mongoose]

I don't tend to prefer these rules.  I big part of it is that raitings arn't as stright foward as they probably should or could be.  Every house has units that are politicaly unreliable, but millitarialy iron clad (Regulan Hussars, Fredric Steiner's 10th Lyran Guards, George Hasek's 6th Syrtis Fustlers, any Warden unit from a Crusader Clan, the list goes on).  And every house has the opposite, political cronies that run at the sight of blood.

It makes determining what units are what quite a battle, and one I'm loath to undertake.

[Fatebringer]

Here were some of the other terms I tried to keep constant thru the proposal.

Bought / Buy Off - To pay someone not to fight.
Retreat - To abandon a battlefield and attempt to leave the system.
Shaken - To freeze in combat, to refuse to fight.
Surrender - To give up ones assets.
Turn - To get a unit to switch sides before or during combat.

[Iron Mongoose]

As often happines, my kids intrupt my thought.

Anyway, the other key point is that rather than expanding RP options like the intel theft rules, which alow factions to do things that are reasonable to want to do and otherwise mostly impossible (hey Marlin, we want to do some RP where the Death Commandos steal all your stuff, is that cool?) and consiquently I like, these rules could limit RP options.

We've got a good group, of good veteran RPers here, and especaly in leadership roles.  They know their units.

Chaos, for example, knows better than to try to RP out the 'fierce fighting' Andurian Defenders and Regulan Hussars making a heroic last stand in the Marik Commonwealth.  He knows his units better than that, and doesn't need to be told that the Andurians and Regulans (especaly imediatly in the wake of the Civil War) are unlikely to stick their necks out for the Mariks, as well as being unlikely to work together.  But, he also wouldn't RP the 'politicaly flakey' Andurians running from Capellan invaders comming for their pound of flesh in the wake of the war, either.

In these sorts of examples, and there are some for every house, hard and fast rules are limiting.  Rather than expand RP options, they tie the hands of players who know their factions better than even the most detailed rules ever could.  If we want to encourage this, we should give rewards for good RP.  But trying to cover all the bases would just be too much, and prevent the sorts of things (like the last stand of Fredric Steiner) that canon has explicitly shown on several occasions, that only come from good, uninhibited RP.

[Iron Mongoose]

That all said, merc troops arn't directly controlled by the faction, so I don't oppose the merc portion of the rules.  A mechanisim for a unit selling out (also known in canon) would be fun.

[Daemonknight]

But this isn't an issue of restricting RP that normally takes place. Its the idea that rarely, if ever, do we see forces stand and smash each other in the face untill one side is wiped out to the last man. Yet that routinely happens in FGC battles. There are cases in any conflict where units will freeze up and just be like "I could care less WHAT you threaten me with- out there its a CERTAINTY I'm going to die, so I'm staying". But unless it's happened before my time in FGC, I don't recall anyone ever having units in place that refused to fight.

I don't see these rules as limiting RP, I see them as giving us more opportunity to RP by creating events outside of the normal 'post battle mop up RP'. These are still just ideas, none of these are in what I would cal even prototype stages of completion.

[Iron Mongoose]

If you want forced withdraw rules, that's one thing.  But, even then, how complex do you want to make them?  At what point does a unit make its final stand?  For example, in the abortive last FGC, we had an instance where my Davions had two units on New Aragon, one of which was the regular rated New Aragon Bourders, and the other of which was the highly elite FSAC.  Guess which one stayed and slugged it out despite being a lost cause and which retreated when the going got tough? 

So, do you put in a modifier for defending an ancesteral homeworld?  Or a capitol world?  Who's to say what is symbolic and significant?  The resualt is that you're letting the rules tell a player what their unit and what their cherictor is to do, and not letting them tell the rules.  If I think my hard line fanatical Samurai I've got on my warships would obay an order to fight to the death, even in the face of huge unexpected reenforcments, who are the abstracted rules that have to take into account everything from a Death Commando to a MoC millitawoman to tell me otherwise in that given instance? (For thouse of you who remember the Combine's attack on the Davions at Tikonov in the last game, this comes from that)  If a player RPs poorly, then that is a difrent problem, but the rules shouldn't have hard and fast settings as to how to RP.  Before your time, yes, units often retreated or didn't fight or did all sorts of silly things because there was less numbers focus and more RP focus.  As the game evolved into more of a stratigy game, people started to treat it that way, and units went from being cherictors in a story to pawns on a chess board, with predictable resualts.

As for most units fighting to the death, I've long argued that's a problem with the combat resolution system.  In MM many players try and retreat when they're losing, though sometimes they can't make it, and that's reflective of how combat really is, and how they view things for themselves.  But, simple resolution often smashes units so quickly there's no time to think.  Here comes two to one odds, a good roll and the unit's totaly gone.  The role of air power is another factor; often even when battle offers only very little hope, retreat offers even less hope because of how helpless ground units are in space.

Both of these contrast with both canon and real world battle features.  In both, damage is a lot more granular, not dealt out in 10% increments of your unit being annihlated.  50% damage in our system is generaly taken to mean half the mechs are dead, and half are alive, but in canon you'd more likely see 75% of the mechs damaged, but only a few distroyed (that might be more 3rd Succesion War than 4th, but the idea stands).  Most casualties are wounded, not killed, in regular battles, which contrasts with our system that makes fairly little distinction.  And, in canon the vastness of space and the combat power of dropships makes retreat fairly simple, where as the game makes it a very long odds proposition, so canon forces are much more inclined to retreat than game forces.

Slow damage rates for simrez by 50% or 67%, make battles slower, and take longer, and you'll see more forces with the time to think "maybe its time to think about retreat."  Make air forces less all poweful, either by assigning a small amount of space FP to ground forces (I proposal I've made before, though there's been little enthuasiam) or by some other means make retreat a more tenable proposition in the face of over welming air cover, and again you'll see fewer last stands.