OOC Thread #2

[GreyJaeger]

Well, that is part of the whole issue. How can you cooperate with Freeborns when you hate Freeborns? It is a very small baby step.

And why do people think it is "playing nice" with the lower castes? Think of it practically. If better people are in the positions, do not the Warriors benefit the most?

Of course, if you can't think of anything to say, you could just vote on the Poll.

[Fatebringer]

LOL, I had no idea what the question was until you just explained it better. Well put.

[Fatebringer]

On other fronts, when Hulk is done smashing, there's just a small case of...

[Cannonshop]

The problem is how fast can you raise a batch of trueborns from vat to battlefield, versus how fast you can field 'Lesser' troops-if you're never planning to expand your holdings, you don't need to expand your touman-but if your holdings are expanding at the geometric rate that most Clans involved in combat in the invasion corridors are, you can not hold what you take without expanding the Touman-and there are plenty of "near enough" lower castes who can pull triggers, tie knots, and drive vehicles well enough to cover the scutwork second-line missions like garrison, policing, and defense operations, freeing up trueborns for the important work of actually advancing against serious enemies.

[Marlin]

Re: newsflash and RP,

Cannonshop, you are not planning on giving your poor people a break, do ya?

[Cannonshop]

Re: newsflash and RP,

Cannonshop, you are not planning on giving your poor people a break, do ya?

What?? They're alive, aren't they?

[Iron Mongoose]

The problem is how fast can you raise a batch of trueborns from vat to battlefield, versus how fast you can field 'Lesser' troops-if you're never planning to expand your holdings, you don't need to expand your touman-but if your holdings are expanding at the geometric rate that most Clans involved in combat in the invasion corridors are, you can not hold what you take without expanding the Touman-and there are plenty of "near enough" lower castes who can pull triggers, tie knots, and drive vehicles well enough to cover the scutwork second-line missions like garrison, policing, and defense operations, freeing up trueborns for the important work of actually advancing against serious enemies.

This was definatly a prominant theam in Mandrill RPs, back when I actualy wrote them.  Expanding from one and two Kindraa, with a limited pool of blood names and of experianced officers, to four and five and more galaxies was always something to be looked at a bit funny.  Though I focused on the lack of leadership more in my RP; how does a Clan that hasn't had a Galaxy Commander position in centuries deal with having the need all of a sudden for four, when it only had 9 clusters just a few years before?

[tassa_kay]

So the Hellions are deporting Lyran citizens who don't want to live under Clan rule (which I would assume is most of them) to the UIW?  I didn't know that the Hellions had the transport capacity... or that the UIW had the infrastructure to support so many millions of people at the drop of a hat. 

[Cannonshop]

So the Hellions are deporting Lyran citizens who don't want to live under Clan rule (which I would assume is most of them) to the UIW?  I didn't know that the Hellions had the transport capacity... or that the UIW had the infrastructure to support so many millions of people at the drop of a hat. 

It's going to take a long time (based on the number of transports) before either situation is actually a problem for either party.  As for the UIW's infrastructure: Arluna pre-plague had a population of slightly over 3 Billion living at a 25th Century level of tech-the Flu took 99% of the people out of that equation.

"Wholesale" might be as many as 100000 people, assuming you used ships like Monarchs and Potemkins, it would take years for ALL the Clans to ship enough people to put a strain on the physical infrastructure, and nobody's devoting that much effort into it.

Exiling agitators and their kin, criminals, and others who don't adapt you get maybe five to fifteen thousand people in a shipment-which the combined UIW officialdom running the top three reception points can handle with their eyes closed.

Most people whom one might think would want to leave the Clan sphere of influence won't-at least, voluntarily, leave-that's human nature.  For every story of people fleeing to West Berlin, there were hundereds or thousands who stayed in East Germany and just endured the Soviets.  For all the hundereds of thousands who fled Vietnam after the fall of Saigon, there were more who stayed and endured it anyway, and even with thousands of Cubans risking their lives to escape Castro there are many times that who would not, and will not, leave-and that's with only a ninety mile sea journey, and people willing to help them get in.

Human nature says that even with solid, open offers, most of the people in the Clan OZ's would not emigrate no matter HOW BAD things got=and the Clan system appeals on a civilian level to the kind of sheeple who've never put up resistance to invaders once the Nobles were gone.

i.e. the majority of settled human space is composed of exactly the kind of people you see in the majority of the real world-even with the door open to a freer life, they will tend to stay where they are-regardless of how bad they have it, and the Clans don't generally treat their lower caste that bad relative to the Inner Sphere states.

[NVA]

Yeah.  I was about to post something similar.  Canon BTech says the average person really doesn't care about whose flag flies over the capital.

[tassa_kay]

Eh, sorry, but I'm not personally buying it.

For one, it's not a Clan thing to do.  If anyone disagrees with this point, show me otherwise.  But I'm confident that you won't find examples of it in canon.  I can cite numerous reasons why a Clan wouldn't do something like this.  But this is also the Clan that eliminated its scientist caste without an eyeblink, without repercussions, and (most strangely of all) without defensible reasoning, so maybe it's just par for the course for Clan Ice Hellion.

For another, you're making some pretty sweeping assumptions about what the people themselves would do.  Has anyone bothered asking August about what he thinks about all this?  (The answer to that is no, btw, since he was as shocked as I was.)  I'd think that one should at least ask for his input before carting off his conquered populace, because their mentality might not be *your* mentality.  There are a lot of factors that aren't really being taken into account in this armchair political speech I'm getting here, and making real-world comparisons just isn't cutting it.

Regarding the numbers of people emigrating... I could buy small-scale movements, tens of thousands MAYBE, but even that should be a process that takes a lot of time and effort, and I don't think it should be a matter of handwavium.  If the Hellions and/or the UIW are planning to move all these people, they should be prepared to use their MPs to do so.  Otherwise, it just smacks of (lame) metagaming.  Neither faction has such a surplus of JumpShips and DropShips that they can do something like this without it costing them in resources.

Sorry, but that's my two cents on the matter.

[NVA]

One - There is no game cost to moving people.  Never has been.  So, no trackable transport is required. 

Two - It has been determined that once conquered, a people no longer belong to the previous faction.  So, the previous faction players do not have to have a say in what happens.

Three - Again, no one has said mass people are relocating.  The Hellions are moving the garbage out and allowing those people who care enough about the flag to get out, so they DON'T have trouble.

[tassa_kay]

One - There is no game cost to moving people.  Never has been.  So, no trackable transport is required.

Wow.  There's a rule that needs serious revision.  If it were that easy to do, I'd have moved everyone off the Combine worlds I conquered, and then made a proposal to have the worlds downgraded from Control Worlds to Member Worlds.  Suffice it to say, it's a rule that lends itself to abuse, and it's disgustingly unrealistic.

Two - It has been determined that once conquered, a people no longer belong to the previous faction.  So, the previous faction players do not have to have a say in what happens.

Inconsiderate at best, and flagrantly disrespectful at worst.  

Three - Again, no one has said mass people are relocating.  The Hellions are moving the garbage out and allowing those people who care enough about the flag to get out, so they DON'T have trouble.

And again, this is not something a Clan would do.  It's a move that broadcasts weakness ("we're not strong enough to control these lower castes, so here, Spheroid, YOU take them!") or laziness ("we can't be bothered with anyone who isn't already willing and able to get to work for us, so here, Spheroid, YOU take them!"), depending on one's perspective.  Even the Ghost Bears at their most indulgent never did something like this.

It boils down to this: it might be legal as far as the game's rules go, but it doesn't make it a good idea, not by any stretch.  It's actually a bad idea on a number of levels.  Disagree all you want.  But provide something to back it up other than "it's not against the rules" or "look at this real-world example", because the former doesn't justify bad writing and the latter doesn't make a case for a completely different situation.  Unless, you know, Soviet Russia (which is as close to a real-world comparison one is ever going to be able to draw to the Clans) was actually footing the bill to move uncooperative people to another country.  I'm betting they did no such thing.

[NVA]

CSA Players...Did you guys sign Ares II?

[Fatebringer]

Two - It has been determined that once conquered, a people no longer belong to the previous faction.  So, the previous faction players do not have to have a say in what happens.

Inconsiderate at best, and flagrantly disrespectful at worst.

Well, there are always the Spec Ops missions that remind the people of who they are and where their loyalties lie I know, we've been screwed over by them before. , but since it usually leads to good RP, I do my usual political spins