OOC Thread #2

[Cannonshop]

One - There is no game cost to moving people.  Never has been.  So, no trackable transport is required.

Wow.  There's a rule that needs serious revision.  If it were that easy to do, I'd have moved everyone off the Combine worlds I conquered, and then made a proposal to have the worlds downgraded from Control Worlds to Member Worlds.  Suffice it to say, it's a rule that lends itself to abuse, and it's disgustingly unrealistic.

Two - It has been determined that once conquered, a people no longer belong to the previous faction.  So, the previous faction players do not have to have a say in what happens.

Inconsiderate at best, and flagrantly disrespectful at worst.  

Three - Again, no one has said mass people are relocating.  The Hellions are moving the garbage out and allowing those people who care enough about the flag to get out, so they DON'T have trouble.

And again, this is not something a Clan would do.  It's a move that broadcasts weakness ("we're not strong enough to control these lower castes, so here, Spheroid, YOU take them!") or laziness ("we can't be bothered with anyone who isn't already willing and able to get to work for us, so here, Spheroid, YOU take them!"), depending on one's perspective.  Even the Ghost Bears at their most indulgent never did something like this.

It boils down to this: it might be legal as far as the game's rules go, but it doesn't make it a good idea, not by any stretch.  It's actually a bad idea on a number of levels.  Disagree all you want.  But provide something to back it up other than "it's not against the rules" or "look at this real-world example", because the former doesn't justify bad writing and the latter doesn't make a case for a completely different situation.  Unless, you know, Soviet Russia (which is as close to a real-world comparison one is ever going to be able to draw to the Clans) was actually footing the bill to move uncooperative people to another country.  I'm betting they did no such thing.

So...why aren't the Blood Spirits doing something about it, Tassa?  in-character, I mean, after all, it's not exactly secret or anything...

IN character, there's Abjuration-which leaves the question about what (in canon) is different from Annihilation?  Unless you have somewhere to send the Abjured ones where you know they can't come back, it's just a delayed annihilation (in the case of Clan Nova Cat in Canon, an incomplete delay and an incomplete annihilation! both in defiance of the Grand Council's ruling, as  a matter of fact...)

HAVING somewhere to send the abjured and malcontents puts teeth back IN the laws of Kerensky-because it reinforces the difference between Abjured (Kicked out, don't come back, stay out of Clan territory) and Annihilation (RAARR!! ME KILL EVERYONE!!! Bang! Don't run! BANG!! FINKS, ALL of YOU!! BANG!!)  and it's preventative action-getting rid of potential troublemakers before they make trouble frees up resources to deal with the things the Clan wants to deal with.

Admittedly, if you think there should be a constant feed of problem cases to restock the Dark Caste, or if you don't like the idea that there is any sentence besides killing the offender and all their relatives at the first convenient opportunity, I could see a Clan objecting to the offer, or even protesting by attacking anyone who's taken the offer up-but having the ooc objections and doing nothing IC about it really strikes ME as poor roleplay-unless you're actually in a position where you don't have the resources to do otherwise.

which among the Clans is a sure sign of weakness-making a stink, but being unwilling to back it up with force...

[august]

Just to interject, the comparison to movement between East and West Berlin don't hold any water. The Soviets held up a decent facade during the period, to the point where the extent of the atrocities didn't become common knowledge in the West until the 60s or 70s - if it seems nonsensical to us that people would willingly remain in East Berlin, that's only because we're viewing after the fact with information that wasn't then available.

But in any case, the rules allow for it and so I won't object overmuch. I think it's poor RP - the cost of moving those people should be massive, and I'd imagine that the UIW would have problems assimilating these people anyway.

[Cannonshop]

Just to interject, the comparison to movement between East and West Berlin don't hold any water. The Soviets held up a decent facade during the period, to the point where the extent of the atrocities didn't become common knowledge in the West until the 60s or 70s - if it seems nonsensical to us that people would willingly remain in East Berlin, that's only because we're viewing after the fact with information that wasn't then available.

But in any case, the rules allow for it and so I won't object overmuch. I think it's poor RP - the cost of moving those people should be massive, and I'd imagine that the UIW would have problems assimilating these people anyway.

The assimilation problem gives me something to do in RP on turns where I can't do much else, August, so it's a means to avoid boredom while being ignored, and it gives me a chance to shape my society in distinctive ways.

Besides, there's what the rules say CAN be moved, and what's actually likely to trickle in: they're different numbers and different quantities by several factors of scientific notation.

[NVA]

To Nuke at Tamar...Or not to Nuke...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6+3 : 6, 2 + 3, total 11[/blockquote]

[DisGruntled]

CSA Players...Did you guys sign Ares II?

Nope, we weren't invited.

[NVA]

CSA Players...Did you guys sign Ares II?

Nope, we weren't invited.

Dirty snakes.    LOL

[august]

Well Cannonshop, you've got the perhaps rare combination of will and opportunity. I hope that you, Cannonshop, will make the best of it.

[NVA]

Wow...Seriously...6 dead warships vs 2...How...unlikely?

[chaosxtreme]

Man...I believe the Ravens must now turn in their masters of naval warfare card because they just got "dealt" with.

[Daemonknight]

On the note of Starcraft references:

I vote we renamed the Snow Raven fleet to the UED Expeditionary Fleet, and the Wolves to Kerrigan's Swarm

I do like free stuff. Seriously all your suggestions are awesome and I appreciate it. ;-) Im good with whatever. Though if there is a Civil War in the FWL don't be suprised if Tommy pulls a Janos or is it better to say a Geralk?

Or as I like to think of it a Mengsk "I won't be stopped not by you, not by the Regulan's, the Andurien's or the Stewart's I shall rule this League or see it burnt to ash's around me."

[GraeGor]

CSA Players...Did you guys sign Ares II?

Nope, we weren't invited.

Dirty snakes.    LOL

Now you know why the Adders are so pissed, we're never invited to the exclusive parties

[tassa_kay]

So...why aren't the Blood Spirits doing something about it, Tassa?  in-character, I mean, after all, it's not exactly secret or anything...

Because in-character, I couldn't care less about the UIW, and as far as the Hellions go... what would be the point?  We raised our objections, and were shunned for it.  Don't see a point in trying to press the issue, since most of the power players on the Grand Council are firmly against us. 

IN character, there's Abjuration-which leaves the question about what (in canon) is different from Annihilation?  Unless you have somewhere to send the Abjured ones where you know they can't come back, it's just a delayed annihilation (in the case of Clan Nova Cat in Canon, an incomplete delay and an incomplete annihilation! both in defiance of the Grand Council's ruling, as  a matter of fact...)

In canon, Abjuration just means that they're banished from Clan society.  Annihilation means just that: the Clan is annihilated.  I really don't see the confusion here.  What happened to the Cats was still Abjuration, though it was bloody nonetheless.  Were it an Annihilation, the Cats wouldn't have been able to run anywhere... the Clans wouldn't have stopped until they were dead.

HAVING somewhere to send the abjured and malcontents puts teeth back IN the laws of Kerensky-because it reinforces the difference between Abjured (Kicked out, don't come back, stay out of Clan territory) and Annihilation (RAARR!! ME KILL EVERYONE!!! Bang! Don't run! BANG!! FINKS, ALL of YOU!! BANG!!)  and it's preventative action-getting rid of potential troublemakers before they make trouble frees up resources to deal with the things the Clan wants to deal with.

Sorry, but your argument makes no sense here.  How does just expelling lower castemen who can't behave or don't want to obey Clan law putting teeth back in the laws of Kerensky, exactly?  It's essentially saying that the Clan is too weak and/or lazy to deal with challenges to its rule.

Admittedly, if you think there should be a constant feed of problem cases to restock the Dark Caste, or if you don't like the idea that there is any sentence besides killing the offender and all their relatives at the first convenient opportunity, I could see a Clan objecting to the offer, or even protesting by attacking anyone who's taken the offer up-but having the ooc objections and doing nothing IC about it really strikes ME as poor roleplay-unless you're actually in a position where you don't have the resources to do otherwise.

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that one had to react in-character to something that they find objectionable out-of-character.  But thanks for the attempt at a lecture; sorry that it failed in this case.  Even sorrier that you felt the need to take a swipe at my faction in order to do so... it shows how few straws you have left to grasp in the argument.

And to address the point that you had hidden in that silly and pointless attempt to insult me, there are other options than "expel" and "kill".  There's "re-educate", for starters.  Or, if you prefer, "corporal punishment".  Whatever you want to call it.  Regardless, "expel" and "kill" aren't the only options, because if that were the case, I'm pretty sure that the OZs would be much different places in canon.

which among the Clans is a sure sign of weakness-making a stink, but being unwilling to back it up with force...

Really, if your only defense is to attack MY Clan, it's a pretty damned weak defense.  Don't blame me because you can't back up poor roleplaying any better than that.

[Cannonshop]

So...why aren't the Blood Spirits doing something about it, Tassa?  in-character, I mean, after all, it's not exactly secret or anything...

Because in-character, I couldn't care less about the UIW, and as far as the Hellions go... what would be the point?  We raised our objections, and were shunned for it.  Don't see a point in trying to press the issue, since most of the power players on the Grand Council are firmly against us. 

IN character, there's Abjuration-which leaves the question about what (in canon) is different from Annihilation?  Unless you have somewhere to send the Abjured ones where you know they can't come back, it's just a delayed annihilation (in the case of Clan Nova Cat in Canon, an incomplete delay and an incomplete annihilation! both in defiance of the Grand Council's ruling, as  a matter of fact...)

In canon, Abjuration just means that they're banished from Clan society.  Annihilation means just that: the Clan is annihilated.  I really don't see the confusion here.  What happened to the Cats was still Abjuration, though it was bloody nonetheless.  Were it an Annihilation, the Cats wouldn't have been able to run anywhere... the Clans wouldn't have stopped until they were dead.

HAVING somewhere to send the abjured and malcontents puts teeth back IN the laws of Kerensky-because it reinforces the difference between Abjured (Kicked out, don't come back, stay out of Clan territory) and Annihilation (RAARR!! ME KILL EVERYONE!!! Bang! Don't run! BANG!! FINKS, ALL of YOU!! BANG!!)  and it's preventative action-getting rid of potential troublemakers before they make trouble frees up resources to deal with the things the Clan wants to deal with.

Sorry, but your argument makes no sense here.  How does just expelling lower castemen who can't behave or don't want to obey Clan law putting teeth back in the laws of Kerensky, exactly?  It's essentially saying that the Clan is too weak and/or lazy to deal with challenges to its rule.

Admittedly, if you think there should be a constant feed of problem cases to restock the Dark Caste, or if you don't like the idea that there is any sentence besides killing the offender and all their relatives at the first convenient opportunity, I could see a Clan objecting to the offer, or even protesting by attacking anyone who's taken the offer up-but having the ooc objections and doing nothing IC about it really strikes ME as poor roleplay-unless you're actually in a position where you don't have the resources to do otherwise.

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that one had to react in-character to something that they find objectionable out-of-character.  But thanks for the attempt at a lecture; sorry that it failed in this case.  Even sorrier that you felt the need to take a swipe at my faction in order to do so... it shows how few straws you have left to grasp in the argument.

And to address the point that you had hidden in that silly and pointless attempt to insult me, there are other options than "expel" and "kill".  There's "re-educate", for starters.  Or, if you prefer, "corporal punishment".  Whatever you want to call it.  Regardless, "expel" and "kill" aren't the only options, because if that were the case, I'm pretty sure that the OZs would be much different places in canon.

which among the Clans is a sure sign of weakness-making a stink, but being unwilling to back it up with force...

Really, if your only defense is to attack MY Clan, it's a pretty damned weak defense.  Don't blame me because you can't back up poor roleplaying any better than that.

So...you're raising a stink about something that:

A: has no game mechanical effect
B: doesn't involve your faction, or factions you play regularly with
C:you're not going to do anything about.

Meanwhile, you're creating Knightly orders inside your Clan, ditching out of the Grand Council's war on Terra, and attacking an NPC location so far from the rest of the game it might as well be irrelevant.

(at MINIMUM as irrelevant as what I'm doing..but you're playing essentially with yourself with the Nueva Castile thing. I, at least, have two or three other "Bad Roleplayers" playing in mine, though yours at least has a game-mechanics effect going for it...)

Given how you're running, Tassa, why in hell do you care what I do with my little bitty faction?  Or what Disgruntled, Graegor, Iron Mongoose, Marlin, Daemonknight or Deathrider6 do in relation to what I'm doing with my little-bitty faction?  You've elected not to interact in-character with my faction, or for the most part with the exception of this petty argument we're having, out-of-character with me.   I'm really at a loss to understand what your problem is-you don't like my logic, that's fine, you don't like what I'm doing?  Why should you give a shit-unless it's somehow screwing with your plans, it doesn't matter, does it?

I mean, I suppose that I, too, could go off and ignore every other player character faction and sulk in the corner like Akkilas waiting for the Acheans to beg him back to battle...but I try to have things to draw people to come and play WITH me, instead of haring off to scoop up RP from an NPC that has no impact on what everyone else is doing, so far away that it also has no relevance to the game the rest of the players are playing.

We're at a reverse position here, Tassa-you have the stat-resources to be a relevant force. I don't, I have to FIND ways to be relevant, you're shunning it in favour of a cheap set of minor victories so far away nobody's going to care.

It's like me running off to conquer Alfirk or something.

Tassa, you write beautiful stuff, but if you're going to criticize what I'm doing, maybe you should consider actually playing with someone other than the bot.  You don't HAVE a Patroklos to get killed and lure you out of your tent, that's where your parallel with Achilles ends-you have to go out and do it yourself, and complaining about something that doesn't matter isn't it.

[Deathrider6]

*Gasp*

I must be a horrible roleplayer. I got Bobby K actually giving a damn about the Commonwealth and I'm the guy why used tactical orbital bombardment to take a planet by vaporizing a unit on the ground let alone making a move to take Tharkad with out a fight. I have characters actually talking to others from different factions in a civil manner. I don't have much of a Navy and my ground forces aren't great shakes either but I'm making do with what I have and trying save the Commonwealth. These things must mean I am terribad. We're talking epic fail because I actually have to be creative to get what I want. Is this the case I think not. I have yet to deal with a bad roleplayer in this incarnation of the 3062 game. NVA,Cannonshop,August,DXM,Chaosextreme and Dave Baughman have made this game a lot of fun for me so far. As for the rest I did not mention...The roleplay I have read has been superb. Do game mechanics cover everything? Nope not by a long shot. I will say this if the GM's see a problem with a players actions vis a vis their faction they kill it and fast.

[tassa_kay]

So...you're raising a stink about something that:

A: has no game mechanical effect
B: doesn't involve your faction, or factions you play regularly with
C:you're not going to do anything about.

Thanks for the recap.  Was it really necessary?

Meanwhile, you're creating Knightly orders inside your Clan, ditching out of the Grand Council's war on Terra, and attacking an NPC location so far from the rest of the game it might as well be irrelevant.

In the order they were put forth:

A. There's precedent for that in the Scorpions' Seeker movement.  The Spirits' version is a direct evolution of it, given the amount of time they'd spent together recently.  (And here I bet you thought I pulled that out of a dark place!)
B. Ditching the war on Terra has actual canonical reasoning.  You know, that thing that you have *yet* to present in defense of your position?
C. I really don't see what this has to do with ANYTHING.  Can you explain?

(at MINIMUM as irrelevant as what I'm doing..but you're playing essentially with yourself with the Nueva Castile thing. I, at least, have two or three other "Bad Roleplayers" playing in mine, though yours at least has a game-mechanics effect going for it...)

What the hell is this, a popularity contest?  Can you tell me what this has to do with ANYTHING?  Maybe Jeyar should be scolded next for "playing with himself" by fighting the Dark.

Given how you're running, Tassa, why in hell do you care what I do with my little bitty faction?  Or what Disgruntled, Graegor, Iron Mongoose, Marlin, Daemonknight or Deathrider6 do in relation to what I'm doing with my little-bitty faction?  You've elected not to interact in-character with my faction, or for the most part with the exception of this petty argument we're having, out-of-character with me.   I'm really at a loss to understand what your problem is-you don't like my logic, that's fine, you don't like what I'm doing?  Why should you give a shit-unless it's somehow screwing with your plans, it doesn't matter, does it?

It doesn't matter, dear.  But that doesn't mean that, as a fellow player in the game that tries to follow everything that goes on, I'm not entitled to offer my own commentary on it.  If you don't like it, I suggest you toddle off and write fanfiction, and never, ever get it published.

I mean, I suppose that I, too, could go off and ignore every other player character faction and sulk in the corner like Akkilas waiting for the Acheans to beg him back to battle...but I try to have things to draw people to come and play WITH me, instead of haring off to scoop up RP from an NPC that has no impact on what everyone else is doing, so far away that it also has no relevance to the game the rest of the players are playing.

We're at a reverse position here, Tassa-you have the stat-resources to be a relevant force. I don't, I have to FIND ways to be relevant, you're shunning it in favour of a cheap set of minor victories so far away nobody's going to care.

It's like me running off to conquer Alfirk or something.

Tassa, you write beautiful stuff, but if you're going to criticize what I'm doing, maybe you should consider actually playing with someone other than the bot.  You don't HAVE a Patroklos to get killed and lure you out of your tent, that's where your parallel with Achilles ends-you have to go out and do it yourself, and complaining about something that doesn't matter isn't it.

And again, you keep bringing this up as if it's any sort of defense.  Let me stop you right here before you continue on this path of self-glorification and absolutely pointless mudslinging, dear.

One, I can interact with any faction I damned well please, whether it's player-controlled or not.  Unlike you, I'm not playing this game to get validation from the other players; I'm in this game to enjoy myself and put myself into the shoes of my favorite faction.  And unlike you, when I do things that are out-of-character, I can at least lay the appropriate groundwork to justify it.  (And given that my original comment wasn't even directed AT you in the first damned place, I don't even see why you're on this little rant.)

Two, please bring the historical references to a halt when you're speaking to me.  I'm not as smart as you are, and I find them very bourgeois and pretentious when you make them.  And really, they don't make your point any better.  Speak to ME and what *I* do, and not to long-dead historical figures, please.

Three, you continue to mock me for ignoring other factions... but are you aware of what Clan I'm running?  Clan Blood Spirit.  You know, the Clan most known for its xenophobic isolationism and walling itself away from the universe?

And finally, I'm going to repeat this since you obviously have yet to have it sink in: if you want to respond to my original observation, respond to it.  Don't try to smear me because you can't justify your own actions.  All it does is show that you don't HAVE a defense for it.  At least I can defend my own roleplaying without resorting to "well, look at what YOU'RE doing" and "at least *I'm* interacting with other players".  Seriously, are we five?

Done with you now.