OOC Thread #2

[Marlin]

*shrugs* I have to deal with the Terrans.. 

[Iron Mongoose]

But at the same time, what degree of work did the FS do to earn its level of power?  Some granted, since they were in a pretty serious dust up with the DC and CC early in the game, and they've been active on the Clan front.  But as much as the Marians, who have largely excaped major beatdowns?  Or as much as the Canopans, who's beatdown was player inflicted?  Or the Lyrans, who's beatdown was... well, inflicted from any number of difrent avenues, from the self, to the players, to the GMs?  Or the FWL, who's beatdown was also GM inflicted?

The power of the FS was, to start with, handwaved into existance, just the same as the Dark's.  And if the GMs looked at what they did with that power and determined that being taken down a peg is a reasonable responce, then perhaps they have a point.  Or, perhaps they don't, but that's a matter for someone who's seen their faction more closely to answer for, I think.

And the same answer to the TC, who one notes have gotten a difrent degree of beat down, and are handling it difrently.  One imagines that this is by design; it would hardly have been appropreate to hit the TC equaly as hard as the FS, unless they were deserving of a much greater level of beatdown, which I don't personaly find them to be.

[tassa_kay]

In all fairness, who deserves a beatdown MORE than the FedSuns?

[Iron Mongoose]

*shrugs* I have to deal with the Terrans.. 

Marlin makes a very important point here.  I think there's not a faction in the game that has not been touched by the GM's megafaction.  Though one might disagree with their notion of how a game should be set up, the GMs of this game decided that they would play an active role in this game, moving and shaking directly through the use of factions they would retain controll over.  For the FWL, or for any Clan, this is nothing new.  

The Dark just represent an extention of this active involvment.

In all fairness, who deserves a beatdown MORE than the FedSuns?

Do the Terrans count?

[Cannonshop]

But at the same time, what degree of work did the FS do to earn its level of power?  Some granted, since they were in a pretty serious dust up with the DC and CC early in the game, and they've been active on the Clan front.  But as much as the Marians, who have largely excaped major beatdowns?  Or as much as the Canopans, who's beatdown was player inflicted?  Or the Lyrans, who's beatdown was... well, inflicted from any number of difrent avenues, from the self, to the players, to the GMs?  Or the FWL, who's beatdown was also GM inflicted?

The power of the FS was, to start with, handwaved into existance, just the same as the Dark's.  And if the GMs looked at what they did with that power and determined that being taken down a peg is a reasonable responce, then perhaps they have a point.  Or, perhaps they don't, but that's a matter for someone who's seen their faction more closely to answer for, I think.

And the same answer to the TC, who one notes have gotten a difrent degree of beat down, and are handling it difrently.  One imagines that this is by design; it would hardly have been appropreate to hit the TC equaly as hard as the FS, unless they were deserving of a much greater level of beatdown, which I don't personaly find them to be.

*Ahem*  "Randis".   I'm trying to figure out what unbridled munch the Fiefdom of Randis is guilty of, that they needed to be over-three-to-one smashed by a GM faction, 'cause I really don't know.

The dark are supposed to be Pirates-pirates raid, they don't invade major states.  The fleet counts just this turn are bigger than the entire canon naval force involved in TF Serpent, yet these are supposedly the Jaguar "Survivors?"

Sure, it's been over ten, but there's gotta be just a huge frigging resource-basket-state out there to finance that much naval construction-they're fielding more ships than many successful Clans do, and the Jags were noted as being (put gently) not very good at the whole "Utilizing resources intelligently" Schtick.

[Lord Harlock]

Let me put it this way, I disagree with the Dark Plotline as it has unfolded. You can argue that the Suns deserved to be taken down a peg or two. But does that justify a warship fleet and ground force of that magnitude of a dead clan?

[GraeGor]

has anyone considered that it's not just Jag remnants, but that the Coyotes decided to join 'em....?


they were pretty much allowed to leave intact...ground, aero and navy for all intents and purposes was essentially undamaged and has had lots of time to make the trip to the IS, circle around and roam the southern periph for a year or two, maybe more, which is plenty of time to find the last of the Jags

did the Coyotes have any Falsane or LaGrange YardShips?...if they did and my theory is semi-accurate, that could explain how theyve kept such a large navy functioning

all theyd need then is a secure and previously unknown world to serve as a base, build a few factories for everything else and plan their revenge

[GraeGor]

and let's not forget that several Clans, Adders included, had a few clusters rabbit during the Scientist Uprising, if not more, since the whole thing wasnt discovered right away, so who knows precisely how many units left prior to the outbreak of hostilities

[Jeyar]

Well, I didn't mean to be... err.. mean asking the question, but if someone can figure out a way in game to unravel the Dark's underlining support structure, I won't mind loosing the raid at ALL (or both for that matter). However the Dark are way better than the new TC special ops (okay bad example) and there are no orders that I find that would lead me to "find source of income/warships/personnel" - The TC has killed thousands of these warriors in battle in the little time we've faced them, and there is no indication of any dent when our very very little IC intel suggests that they shouldn't have any more than a few thousand "Believers" total. We can't break them when captured (true I haven't used torture for the TC, but we've IMPLIED it to some of the prisoners (which is itself bad, but I thought IC justified) to see if they'd break - and carried out executions when we had a conviction of a CAH - and no one is even shaken). Yeah, the TC does have that really slow method of interrogation, but we were told no using the words "will not" - not "if you wait a year slowly loosening the personality patterns of the target's neural net (brain) coupled with constant therapy you not only get a chance to rehabilitate the subject towards humanity, but they may at the end give a little intel you need..."

Am I using The Dark as a reason to damp down on IC distrust on the MoC, MH, Niops, FWL, CE and FS – sure, esp as I have been tied into a knot for that due to bad luck on rolls. However that doesn't mean that I can justify NOT realizing IC that The Dark don't fit any profile in-universe that we can imagine as rational WITHOUT some form of (big)help. IC the TC "knows" the Dark has tricked them 3 times, at different levels. OOC I don't see any way to crack the code. Other than to use (abuse) a probable error in the rules as written and hope my interpretation can be made to stick that is.

[GraeGor]

as far as the Lyran fractions and their respective sizes...I do think that the RWR is a bit large, Arc-Royal is smaller than it should be, Skye is about right and the Charlies are also on the big side

about half of what went to Charlie shouldve been Arc-Royal, with the RWR and Charlies should be switched in their positions, splitting what remains of the ACW and current RWR between them, with the ACW picking up most of the worlds along the Lyran Periphery while the RWR gets the worlds closer to the "core" of the LC....but then what do I know, I generally just go with the flow and make the best of whatever situation the Adders get thrust into

[LittleH13]

For the Dark I will say this once again.....Quit complaining OOC and do something IC. This faction is not a GM super faction and is killable but you have to take action and not sit on your thumbs IC.

Jeyar.. the threads are going to be unlocked and allowed to continue but be warned that there will be a STRICT enforcement of the new posting time limit once we have put it in place. I have also moved your threads to the Clan combat section as that is where they should be posted.

[Dave Baughman]

FYI the proposed posting deadlines rule for 42 has been posted in the Turn 42 Rules Updates thread.

[Dave Baughman]

For the Dark I will say this once again.....Quit complaining OOC and do something IC. This faction is not a GM super faction and is killable but you have to take action and not sit on your thumbs IC.

Jeyar.. the threads are going to be unlocked and allowed to continue but be warned that there will be a STRICT enforcement of the new posting time limit once we have put it in place. I have also moved your threads to the Clan combat section as that is where they should be posted.

While I don't want this to turn into a "players vs. GMs" argument, I feel kind of obliged to point out that Josh is completely correct here regarding The Dark. Its true that they aren't a pushover force, and its true that they have a very limited ability to stack of doom when they're allowed to, but the myth that the Dark are either unbeatable or that they have some sort of magic FP pump squeezing out a McKenna each turn is, to say the least, an exageration.

The Dark have gone through a few different iterations in FGC. From what I understand (this was before my time), the Dark originally started out as a balance mechanism to ensure the FS kept their backfield garrisoned. When they next appeared, they were pretty much a combination FS punching-bag/GM vehicle to get some additional proxy matches played.

The Third Coming of the Dark, so to speak saw them transition back into their earlier game balance role, with them getting meaner and more agressive, and since I've been acting in the role of head GM the Dark have undergone a final metamorphosis, where their "magic fiat FP strength gains" have been tied back into the overall plot.

I dig that not everyone likes the Dark. In fact, if you all hate the Dark (at least In-Game), then they are doing their job correctly there. Regardless of how the occasional Dark NPCs justify it, they are a genuinely Black Hat faction and its completely reasonable for people to be revolted by their antics. As Josh alluded to however, the best way to shut down the Dark is by force - and as long as The Dark can keep rolling over weak defenders that's going to be tough. On the other hand, they haven't done all that great so far when they've had to face fair fights, or when they end up on the other end of 2:1 odds.

A couple other points I think should be address

1) Inadequacy of the intel rules to cover desired missions: As you've probably seen in the turn 42 rules updates threads, there's a major overhaul of the intel rules coming. Some of you are going to like those rules (or parts of them), others are going to dislike them (again - or parts of them). The objectives of the intel overhaul are:

• Eliminate broken mechanics that overpower the large factions (especially the TH)
• Clarify and expand upon exactly how each intel order works, instead of having them be secret GM black boxes.
• Add new options to fill holes that have been identified based on player feedback.

Specifically, Formation Location's function will be clarified and expanded, including an option to "reverse" the order and backtrack a unit. That's not to say that people will be able to find hidden baseworlds super easily, but additional means of doing so are being added to the written rules.


2) The Fall of Randis. Lets not kid around here: Randis was going to get hit hard eventually, and without major allied support it was going to go down; whether they were acting agressively or not, Randis is just too big a target for The Dark to pass up. The GM team did not arbitrarily roll in and say "well sorry, Iron Mongoose, but suprise you're dead." IM was consulted a few turns in advance on the general GM plans for Randis, and I'm sure you all noted that the Turn 40 Randis thread contained a number of special scenarios and saw the Dark use far less force than they could have. Frankly, if I could have made Randis even more of a heroic sendoff too the Knights in light of scheduling and availability, I would have. That's also why we let the last few Randis forces' last stand spill over into 41 instead of just fiating them to death or simple rezzing it out.



Anyway, that turned into a somewhat longer post than I planned, but I figure its better to be more informative than not, to the extent that not spoiling the plot allows.

Finally, I want to say that I'm extremely happy we can discuss issues like this without descending into namecalling and flame wars like has happened sometimes in the past. I know at times emotions can get heated, especially when it comes down to way various GM administrations have handled the NPC factions. While its true that some of the points raised in the discussion of the Dark (and events surrounding them) are very much the sort of thing that need to be explored more fully within the In-Character side of the game, I'm always happy to discuss OOC questions or concerns over here, as long as folks aren't burning me in effigy  .

[Iron Mongoose]

I'd like to follow up on Dave's #2 as well.  We did consualt, and we did agree that it was the reasonable thing to do, a good plot point for the game, and something that will probably lead to desirable resualts.  I know exactly what Randis did to diserve that beatdown, after all, as I do run the show.

More over, look at the Randian responce.  They got the SL to declare war on the Dark, after all, which is highly symbolic, if largely meaningless.  If I had more energy to RP (and this means any of my factions, as you'll note that both the more active Mandrills and Adders get little enough RP themselves) the sorts of ideas that rattle around in my head for Randis would come out.  I've got an idea for a story about the young child of the planitary ruler being thrust into leadership of the Randian refugees, which I hope will be intresting.  The story of the Knights that were away from home, serving in the CoPS army should also be good.  And I hope to keep active in the SL and adjitating for action to reclaim Randis.

I think that this shows the potental to come from the Dark.  Yes, the FS simply rolling them up like the rabble they are would be more IC, but where's the drama in that?  Where's the suspense in a Fox whooping up on a few wings of fighters?  But one taking down a Farragut?  There's a story worth telling, and we've seen that.  The interplay between the several factions fighting the Dark, in the SL and in privet, is a lot more intresting than each simply doing some spring cleaning on some pirates on their own. 

This game is part stretegic war game, yes, and the Dark fit poorly into that I'll admit.  But this game is also part Role Playing game, and what better to trigger some good story lines than something so over the top?  Just the same way that folks like Cannonshop have made some great RP out of the Lyran's abject falures, it is my hope that the folks in the south (Jayar already in full RP swing on this, and I hope to catch up, one of these days, if I can ever get the energy after dealing with the DoT's BS) can do that same with the lemons we've got.

[GraeGor]

I'm always happy to discuss OOC questions or concerns over here, as long as folks aren't burning me in effigy  .

Burning, no

Tar and Feather, maybe

Sticking Pins In VooDoo Doll Dave...ummm, no comment