Rules Updates for turn 42

[LittleH13]

In cannon the clans did not have instant comms from the IS to the HWs. Also it is not based on the HW zoomed in hexes. This means that there are more than enought ICs to cover all of the HWs.

One issue I remember seeing was the having to have an IC every four hexes. Now first of all, does that mean the biggest gap between ICs being four hexes, or every four hexes there needs to be an IC? Secondly, this is quite short and there is going to be a massive issue with several Clans losing their provider status. I do not think any Clan has an IC every four hexes, especially in between the homeworlds and the DP.

[GreyJaeger]

I agree. That is not what I was talking about.

IC Hex Improvement

IC Hex Improvements represent the massive specialized computer data centers that sort, route, bundle, and compress HPG traffic for retransmission along a network.

If a hex is not within four hexes (i.e. two HPG transmissions) of a friendly IC (not neccessarily one operated by the hex's owner), it is treated as if under partial communications blockage, reflecting the cumulative effects of network congestion and latency

Pretty much all the Clans will fall under partial comms blackage.

In cannon the clans did not have instant comms from the IS to the HWs. Also it is not based on the HW zoomed in hexes. This means that there are more than enought ICs to cover all of the HWs.

One issue I remember seeing was the having to have an IC every four hexes. Now first of all, does that mean the biggest gap between ICs being four hexes, or every four hexes there needs to be an IC? Secondly, this is quite short and there is going to be a massive issue with several Clans losing their provider status. I do not think any Clan has an IC every four hexes, especially in between the homeworlds and the DP.

[Dave Baughman]

Well...I see a lot of stuff that will make the bigger factions happy, and a lot of punishment for small factions, and those that don't have PF's of any kind (nor the RP income to get one by increasing their Intel ratings...)

There are going to be a few opportunities coming up very soon to get PFs. I'm sure even a micro-faction like UIW will be able to get at least one or two since the LC spent a lot of money on intel improvements in the last 42 turns and UIW will get credit for some of that.

Also, the role of PFs in intel is changing, and when the R&D Rules are revised the reforms there will also extend to Commtech. Basically, once the R&D stuff is updated, PFs (while still useful) will not be the massive make-or-break factor in R&D that they currently are.

If you've spent any money in the last 21 turns on intelligence rating improvements, chances are you'll be able to get that PF you've been wanting for Lum.

Heh, I spent Int Rating too. I want a PF too... *bounce and runs in circles, trying to catch his own tail*




Seriously, is there a chance for other Clans too, if the Marians can have 4 PFs, there should be some for the Clans as well..

Once I publish the pre-final draft this weekend, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised PF-wise.

One issue I remember seeing was the having to have an IC every four hexes. Now first of all, does that mean the biggest gap between ICs being four hexes, or every four hexes there needs to be an IC? Secondly, this is quite short and there is going to be a massive issue with several Clans losing their provider status. I do not think any Clan has an IC every four hexes, especially in between the homeworlds and the DP.

Please see the attached image for an explanation of how range-to-IC works.

Also, just to reiterate:

1) Factions will soon have an opportunity to get more ICs in a special one-time deal
2) Factions will soon have an opportunity to move their ICs on the map in order to take advantage of the new rules.

The Homeworlds are going to be golden under the new rules, since every Clan will be allowed to put its two "magic off-camera" ICs on the homeworlds map. Between all the Clans, that region should be more than adequately covered. Some areas will have to deal with PCB because they are "fringe regions" adjacent to multiple empty hexes, but the big IS factions going to have to contend with that as well.

The individual Deep Periphery hexes are basically going to be in perpetual partial comms blockage, but that's pretty much a given seeing how isolated they are.



Also key to remember, comm blockage is by hex, not by faction now. So... a space station out in the DP might well be PCB'd, but that is not going to adversely impact your core worlds at all. Also (though this is more pertinent to the IS than the Clans due to the super-revenue of the homeworlds), rounding issues mean that PCB will not actually adversely impact all hexes; those periphery hexes containing just one control world are going to go down to 0.125 RP per turn from PCB, then round back up to 0.25 anyway.

[Dave Baughman]

Please read this and comment. The final version will have actual formatting.

Please be aware that all spending on intel rating increases will be compensated, including a special opportunity to gain more PFs - details of that will follow.

Important: if you see a "hole" in the operations here that prevent you from doing something you think you would want to do (other than "automatically win") please let me know and I'll see if I can fit it in.

Intelligence Operations

Cost: The cost listed is for the operation on a flat die roll (no modifiers). Unless bonuses are prohibited by the text of the operation, paying

twice the cost adds a +1 to the roll. Four times the cost adds a +2, and eight times adds a +3 bonus.

General Rules: All intelligence operations are rolled on 2d6. Generally an 8 or better is required for the basic level of success, with higher

rolls resulting in additional information or benefits.

Low Rolls: An unmodified roll of 3-4 results in false or erroneous intelligence being received. An unmodified roll of 2 results in the operation

being compromised (GMs will work with the faction who defeated the operation to determine the specific outcome).

Intelligence Categories and Intelligence Ratings: These elements of the previous version of the rule have been deleted; however, see Special

Forces below.

Notification: It is no longer neccessary to PM the GMs with a summary of intelligence operations (this was a requirement under the previous

version of the rule). All operations on the Intelligence section of the orders sheet will be executed if possible when orders are processed.

Stacking attempts: Each faction may attempt a specific operation against a specific target once each turn. One faction cannot, for example,

attempt 10 formation location rolls for the same target in a single turn; however, allied factions may work together to undertake multiple

attempts on the same goal (one per faction).

-----------

Planetary Garrison Posting
Cost: 0.5 RP

Targets a single hex, attempting to identify defenders.

Roll   Result
5-7   No intelligence gathered
8   Names of units present at the start of the turn
9   Names and quality
10   Names, quality, current FP
11   As 10, plus the names of any units scheduled to arrive
12   As 10, plus the names and quality of any incoming units
13+   As 10, plust he names, quality, and current FP of any incoming units

Alternate outcome: If specified in the orders, the additional information at 11+ can be 'reversed' to reveal departing units instead of arriving

units.


Industrial Espionage
Cost: 5.0 RP

Operator attempts to steal a design or technology from a neighboring faction.

General industrial espionage, resulting in a random theft (determined by the GMs) requires an 8+ to succeed
Stealing the plans for a specific small unit design requires a 10+
Stealing the plans for a specific enemy technology or a large unit (DropShip or larger) needs a 12+ to succeed




Operational Orders
Cost: 1.0 RP

Targets either a single unit (hex does not need to be known or specified) or all units in a specific hex.

Roll   Result
5-7   No intelligence gathered
8-9   Core order (move, raid, invasion, etc) only revealed.
10-11   Core order and target of orders revealed
12   Core order, target of orders, and flight path to accomplish orders are all revealed

Alternate outcome: If specified in orders, this order can reveal a units orders and other information during the previous turn rather than the

current.



VIP Location
Cost: 5.0 RP

Targets a specific character.

Roll   Result
5-7   No intelligence gathered
8-9   Location only is revealed
10-11   Location, plus presence or absence of protective detail
12+   Location plus specific details of protective detail

Alternate outcome: If specified, this order can be used to reveal location and protection during the previous turn instead of the present.



Formation Location
Cost: 0.5 RP

Targets a specific unit

Roll   Result
5-7   No intelligence gathered
8-9   Starting location of a specific unit
10-11   Starting and ending location of a specific unit
12+   As 10-11 plus an ambush location is made available (GMs will determine the exact location)

Note: This operation can be used to locate a special forces team, even if the nationality and name of the team is not known as long as that unit

conducted an operation or executed a combat order during the most recent turn.

Alternate outcome: If specific, this order can be used to track the movement of a unit during the previous turn; if so, 8-9 reveals the end

location instead of the start location. Results of 12+ provide an additional turn of 'history' for each result above 11 (i.e. 12 reveals the

last 2 turns, 13 the last 3, and so forth).

Interaction with Hunting order: Hunters can be dispatched either to the start or end hex (if both are known). If an ambush site is provided,

this may also be used for hunting.



Disseminate Domestic Disinformation
Cost: 5.0 RP

Conceal a specific detail about your faction's activities. A common use is to conceal the natioality of forces being used in combat.

The base difficulty of this operation is 8+ on 2d6; the GMs will adjust the difficulty based on the specific details of the operation (i.e.

concealing the nationality of a unique warship will be harder than disguising a company of 'Mech raiders).

A roll that does not meet the target number set by the GMs may still result in a partial success; they will adjust the results accordingly.



Disseminate Foreign Disinformation
Cost: 5.0 RP

Propogate false information about a rival faction. Commonly used to frame an enemy faction for intelligence operations or military attacks.

The rules listed for Disseminate Domestic Disinformation apply to this order as well.



Turn Agent
Cost: 10.0 RP

Attempt to compromise a specific faction's intelligence operations targeting the Operator's faction. This operation is ineffective against

Special Operations.

Roll   Result
5-9   No effect
10   1d6 enemy operations are treated as if they rolled an unmodified 4
11   1d6 enemy operations are treated as if they rolled an unmodified 3
12+   1d6 enemy operations are treated as if they rolled an unmodified 2



Investigation
Cost: 2.5 RP

Attempt to gain information about past activities or plot events.

The GMs will set the difficulty based on how specific the investigation is and how obscure the information sought is. Partial success is

possible.



Passive Intelligence Operations
Cost: N/A

Failed enemy actions may provide clues that are detected by the Operator's faction. Passive Intelligence Operations does not need to be listed

on the orders sheet; this operation is always active.



============================================


Special Forces


Special Forces are elite (or better) military units that offer a number of special capabilities to their owners. A number of additional

intelligence operations exist that may only be attempted if a friendly special forces team is in the target hex.


Construction: A Special Forces team costs 12 RP and takes 6 turns to build.

Composition: Before skill modifiers, a Special Forces team is worth 1.0 FP in actual combat. This FP can be used in either ground or air combat,

and may consist of any legal combination of units to equal the 1.0 FP amount. The actual FP amount is an abstraction; as long as the unit is

active, it automatically returns to full strength at the end of the turn if it is not destroyed.

Skill: A newly-constructed Special Forces team is Elite. After one successful operation, they may be trained to Legendary (x2.24 FP multiplier).

After three more successful operations, they may be trained to Heroic (x2.63 FP multiplier). Legendary special forces teams receive a +1

modifier on their operational rolls; Heroic units receive a +2.

Training: Special Forces teams may be trained using the normal training rules, but should be treated as if their base FP was 12 instead of 1.

Limits: A faction may have no more than three special forces teams, or an amount equal to its total number of PFs, whichever is greater.

   NOTE: Factions that had "too many" special forces teams due to construction under the old rules are grandfathered, but may not build

more teams until their total number of Special Forces units is reduced below the limit.

Movement: Special Forces teams move by Improved Clandestine Movement (no hostile movement posts required, no chance of detection by defenders,

automatic successful raid insertion) and have the LFB Mobile movement class. Special Forces teams cannot spend movement points, so their maximum

move per turn is six hexes.

Core Abilities: The presence of a Special Forces team in a hex allows for Special Forces Intelligence Operations to be attempted. The presence

and nationality of a Special Forces team only needs to be revealed if that unit attempts a raid, battle, or other standard combat order

(assuming their nationality has not been concealed with a Disinformation operation).

Escape and Evasion: In the event of a failed Special Forces Intelligence Operation, the team is not automatically destroyed. Instead, the GMs

will roll on the following table, applying only the team's Operations skill modifier.

Roll      Result
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2      Team is captured               
3      Team is surrounded, must surrender or commit suicide   
4      Team is heavily damaged, must move to a friendly PF and spend 1d6 turns repairing and rebuilding, nationality revealed.
5      Team is moderately damaged, must move to a friendly hex and spend 1d6 turns repairing and rebuilding, nationality revealed.
6      Team is lightly damaged, must spend 1d6 turns repairing and rebuilding, nationality revealed.
7      Team escapes undamaged, but its nationality is discovered.
8+      Team escapes undamaged and its identity remains unknown.

Note that a seperate Disseminate Disinformation operation can conceal the nationality of the team on a result of 3-7, but not on a surrender.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Protect VIP
Cost: 0.5 RP

The team protects a specific character.

All intelligence operations targeting the VIP suffer a -2 modifier on their operation roll; this penalty is further increased if a higher level

of protection is paid for (i.e. paying for a +1 modifier leads to a net -3 penalty to enemy operations).

Additionally, if an enemy special forces team targets the VIP, they must fight the defending special forces team for one round of combat to

reach their target - per interdiction rules, if they fail to inflict at least 25% on the defenders, they are unable to reach their target; the

operation automatically fails and the attacker must still roll for Escape and Evasion.



Protect Hex Element
Cost: 1.0 RP

The team protects the hex improvements in a specific hex.

This operation follows the same rules as Protect VIP.



Disrupt Communications
Cost: 1.0 RP

The team attempts to disrupt enemy communications, leaving some enemy units out of position in the course of a larger campaign.

Unless specified otherwise in the orders, this operation is attempted during the Special Scenarios phase of the first round of combat to occur

in the target hex.

Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-9         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
10         5% of the enemy force is out of position for one operational round.
11         10% of the enemy force is out of position
12         15% of the enemy force is out of position
13+         20% of the enemy force is out of position

Forces out of position due to disrupted communiations may not participate in that round of combat; in the context of this order, "enemy force"

means the total of all enemy forces in the hex, taken proportionately from each individual unit present.



Destroy Supplies
Cost: 2.0 RP

The team attacks enemy supply lines.

Unless specified otherwise in the others, this operation is first attempted during the Special Scenarios phase of the first round of combat to

occur in the target hex.

If successful, this operation can be attempted again in the next operational round. The results are cumulative (i.e. two successes result in a

total of 30% of the enemy force being disabled for the rest of the turn).


Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-11         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
12+         Operation succeeds, 15% of the enemy force is out of action for the turn, team may roll again in the next operational

round.




Sabotage Hex Element
Cost: 5.0 RP

The team attacks either a specific hex improvement or a target of opportunity.

If no specific target is indicated a +1 bonus is applied to the roll. The GMs will randomly select a target.


Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-7         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
8         Facility is offline for 1d6 turns
9         Facility is offline for 2d6 turns
10+         Facility is destroyed



Attack Enemy SF Team
Cost: 5.0 RP

The team attacks an enemy special forces team in the same hex.

Whichever team inflicts less damage must roll on the Escape and Evasion table.




Incite Revolt
Cost: 25.0 RP

The team, with material support from their home faction, arms and trains rebel forces in the target hex.


Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-9         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
10         1d6 FP of rebels appear and the hex is terrorized for three turns
11         2d6 FP of rebels appear and the hex is terrorized for three turns
12         4d6 FP of rebels appear and the hex is terrorized for three turns
13+         8d6 FP of rebels appear and the hex is terrorized for three turns



Steal Transports
(temporarily removed until the MP system is overhauled)




Headhunting
Cost: 10.0 RP

The team attacks the enemy's commanders, temporarily reducing the enemy's skill level.

Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-7         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
8-11         Enemy units in the hex temporarily lose one skill level for the turn
12+         As 8-11, plus the enemy's overall commander in theater is killed


Terrorism
Cost: 2.0 RP

The team attacks a hex's civilian population.

Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-9         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
10+         Hex is terrorized for three turns



Assassination/Kidnapping
Cost: 15.0 RP

The team attempts to kill or kidnap a specific VIP


Roll         Result
------------------------------
5-7         Operation fails, roll for Escape and Evasion
8         Target sustains minor injuries, no game effect - RP only; kidnappings fail
9         Target is injured, out of action for one turn; kidnappings fail
10         Target is seriously injured, out of action for 1d6 turns; kidnappings fail
11         Target is killed or kidnapped                  

[Daemonknight]

Question: can metafactions like the SLDF and ICW have more than 3 SF teams, considering that their realm of influence is so much larger in scope than an individual factions?

Also, because their mission isn't as focused as an individual faction's Intelligence community, can metafactions be a limited exemption from the "one mission per target, per turn" rule?(example: trying to discover the THS Sarah McEvdey(sp?), the ICW might want to REALLY find it, and so, having more resources than any one Clan's watch, it tasks 2 groups to finding it, thus running 2 Formation Location missions against the same ship).

To clarify: could a Formation Location be run against both an individual ship/cluster/regiment, and also it's parent unit(Fleet/Naval Star, Galaxy, Brigade/RCT)? Would that be considered running 2 missions against the same target twice, if say my Falcons ran a FormLoc mission against the THS S.E, and it's parent unit, the TH 3rd Fleet?

On the subject of the ICW(or any future such metafactions): multiple Clans sent their own SF teams to make up the ICW's team list. Do those teams still count against a Clan's faction? I ask because techniclly, in the RP rules I developed, they'd have to cut all ties with their Clan of origin...not sure if that is to be translated into game mechanics.

[Dave Baughman]

Question: can metafactions like the SLDF and ICW have more than 3 SF teams, considering that their realm of influence is so much larger in scope than an individual factions?

If their members donate PFs to them or they make PFs of their own, sure. There's also nothing to stop teams that belong to friendly factions from being seconded to them but remaining on the sheet of their parent faction.

Also, because their mission isn't as focused as an individual faction's Intelligence community, can metafactions be a limited exemption from the "one mission per target, per turn" rule?(example: trying to discover the THS Sarah McEvdey(sp?), the ICW might want to REALLY find it, and so, having more resources than any one Clan's watch, it tasks 2 groups to finding it, thus running 2 Formation Location missions against the same ship).

Currently, I'm not planning on making such an exception for the metafactions, but the ICW in the example you gave could certainly fund one of it's members' Watches to run duplicate ops, thus avoiding the problem. The SLDF could do the same (i.e. SLDF runs one op, FS runs another on the same target, DC runs a third, etc.)

To clarify: could a Formation Location be run against both an individual ship/cluster/regiment, and also it's parent unit(Fleet/Naval Star, Galaxy, Brigade/RCT)? Would that be considered running 2 missions against the same target twice, if say my Falcons ran a FormLoc mission against the THS S.E, and it's parent unit, the TH 3rd Fleet?

If a unit takes up more than one line on the sheet, its probably not a valid target for formation location (unless its a regular units that's been split up for tactical or deployment purposes). This definitely needs to be clarified in the written rule however and it will be adressed more concretely in the next update.

On the subject of the ICW(or any future such metafactions): multiple Clans sent their own SF teams to make up the ICW's team list. Do those teams still count against a Clan's faction? I ask because techniclly, in the RP rules I developed, they'd have to cut all ties with their Clan of origin...not sure if that is to be translated into game mechanics.

They need to be in one faction or another. No unit should exist on two sheets, whether they are SF, SLDF, Pirates, whatever. Note that this is a rules and paperwork issue rather than an RP issue. If you are OK with their owner knowing where they are (since they're on the sheet) you can totally RP it like they are under ICW command, etc, and still have them on their builder's sheet. Honestly, as we go forward this is basically how seconded units will have to be run due to the way the equipment tables define unit FP differently faction-by-faction.

On the other hand, if Clan X doesn't want to deal with that SF team counting against its limit, they can transfer it onto the ICW sheet if the Watch has adequate capacity to support them. In that situation, no matter who the parent unit is, now they could only against the ICW's limit.

[Daemonknight]

Do PFs have any use aside from increasing SF capacity, as far as intelligence ops are concerned(as metafactions won't be conducting much R&D i presume)? I just can't see Clans shunting their PFs off to increase the ICW's SF numbers, but at the same time, the whole point of the ICW is to pool resources...which the new rules definetly hamper. I'm sure the SLDF will face a similar problem, though to a lesser extent with the prevelance of PFs in the IS.

[Cannonshop]

Maybe there should be a "Joint Operations" rule or something where factions can pool their resources to carry out a specific mission at a bonus.

Something along the lines of giving certain mission-types a bonus if you have more than one source feeding them (Like a pip on the die for intel gathering-each contributing faction's SF units gain a pip on the die-roll, but only if they share the results between them.)

A real-world example would be CIA cooperating with MI6 (or MI5), the Mossad, and the DGSE to locate a specific terrorist-each has their own sources, and each has to contribute from those sources or it doesn't work-but if they all work together properly, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

The natural downside (which can be codified into the mechanic) is that by cooperating closely on a mission, every faction that participates takes a penalty to resisting intel checks by the others.  Not that big a problem for the Clans, unless one is hiding something from the others, but it could be a real problem for IS states since at any time, an ally can turn enemy at the drop of a hat.

[GreyJaeger]

 Overall, I like it, save for one thing. I think the Intel Ratings are needed. Basically, in the revision, the Steel Viper Clan Watch is going to be the qualitative equivalent of the ISF, MIIO, and LIC? I don't feel that is right, and I would not think those factions would be wrong in not caring for it themselves.

[DXM]

I would suggest that Legendary be a higher skill mod than Heroic; Heroes may live forever, but Legends never die.

I also want to echo the need for national intel ratings; at the very least, there should be some sort of level system for offensive and defensive ops.  An example: the Clans are a very open society with little need for secrecy, so they have a Defensive Rating of 1; the Rim is an open and democratic nation with Freedom of the Press, so they have a Defensive Rating of 2; the Draconis Combine is protected by a pervasive and all-knowing security force and have a Defensive Rating of 3.

Having set ratings determined by how open the society (for defense) and for how good your intel agencies are (for offense) cuts back on intel rating improvements.  Sure, you can make your Offensive Rating better, but no amount of money spent is going to make Google any less effective on Atreus or New Avalon.

[Cannonshop]

I would suggest that Legendary be a higher skill mod than Heroic; Heroes may live forever, but Legends never die.

I also want to echo the need for national intel ratings; at the very least, there should be some sort of level system for offensive and defensive ops.  An example: the Clans are a very open society with little need for secrecy, so they have a Defensive Rating of 1; the Rim is an open and democratic nation with Freedom of the Press, so they have a Defensive Rating of 2; the Draconis Combine is protected by a pervasive and all-knowing security force and have a Defensive Rating of 3.

Having set ratings determined by how open the society (for defense) and for how good your intel agencies are (for offense) cuts back on intel rating improvements.  Sure, you can make your Offensive Rating better, but no amount of money spent is going to make Google any less effective on Atreus or New Avalon.

thing is, Intel ops are by definition different from mere combat.  Consider the effectiveness of Scotland Yard vs. the FBI, for instance.  Similar societies with fairly open internal borders and free press, but the British agency is much more effective at detecting certain types of threats than the Americans are, or you could examine the difference between the Israeli agencies and the Americans, or the French vs. the Americans.

Focus Matters.  An agency that is balls-to-the-wall good at catching foreign infiltrators may be nearly incapable of defending a visiting VIP effectively, while an agency that is good at detecting native dissidents may have a blind-spot where foreign infiltration is concerned.

For simplification, a 'base number' default is probably necessary based on something similar to the intelligence ratings system-but there may be a need for some kind of 'Specialization' score to underscore where a given faction's strengths lie beyond the "Gather/counter" intelligence range.

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, specal ops skill is going to be taken care of a bit by the team ratings, though I wouldn't mind seeing the starting points for less established groups teams as Veteran (the new Watch has only been up and running for a few months, so its hard to imagine that they could put on an elite team on their first try, even if they have combat-elite troops to draw from; its just a difrent skill set to learn.  A micro nation like Randis or Mica might have similar, if not greater, troubles here, or a nation with no infrastructure, such as a Lyran fragment, or a fragment of some other nation that might come to be later on).

As for gathering and countering intel, states that are clever have ways of managing things like free or closed societies (both the USA and USSR had their share of success and falues spying on one another, yet each had a difrent society by and large).  If the ISF is good, they will make the most of their state run news and other forms of controll to keep tight.  But, if VINH is good, then they'll take advantage of the free media to spread disinformation, to obscure the good information in clouds of garbage, and keep the best stuff tightly locked away (conversly, if they're not good, it will all get out some how or another).  So I don't think societal models should really be looked at too closely.  Especaly because its not something that really has a game mechanic (though I'd love to see someone RP out such a change, as we've seen bits of over the years here and there).  Let's just focus on skill of the agency in which ever areas we want to track.

[Cannonshop]

The problem becomes one of player tracking, also, I think.  Generally, a Special Forces soldier doesn't have the same skillsets that a civilian Operator would have-in spite of James Bond and Michael Weston, the main activities of a spy revolve around skills like schmoozing, talking, smiling, and reading people.  The soviets had a spy ring inside the U.S. Navy for over twenty years-you may have heard of the case, the Walkers?

Most of what they did involved no violence or violent skills at all-'twas mostly a matter of looking not-guilty and talking one's way to access, with money involved.

Money,
Ideology,
Conscience,
Ego.

MICE was the acronym, it's the four ways you turn someone into a source.  Nowhere in there is gunplay involved.  Intel agencies using HUMINT focus on finding weaknesses-they don't send in commando if they can get it by bribing the janitor, or blackmailing the post-man, and that's really where designing rules becomes tricky-because looking over the mission types, I see one thing standing out: it's James Bond type operations, which only really exist in movies, and are best suited for action-adventure vs. spy thrillers.

Another example from history was Kim Philby-while the Walkers were money-driven, Philby was flipped by Ideology, he honestly believed Communism was the wave of the future.  He was recruited at Eaton long before he ever entered British Intelligence, and did untold amounts of damage once there, while being a highly competent spy for the British whom he was also spying ON.

I really don't know if there is a way to make a short game mechanic that could handle even semi-realistic intelligence ops between nations of that depth.

[Marlin]

Cant say I am convinced by the HPG rules. And all next turn already? Will get more problems.

Intel rules are ok so far.

[Dave Baughman]

There were two critical problems with intel ratings that caused me to kill them:

The first one is mechanical; a bonus of potentially +4 (or a -4 penalty to an enemy) has too much of an impact on the bell curve of probability. This also ties into the second problem, because it causes a "weak" intel organization to actuall have a far higher operating budget than a "strong" one. Special Ops teams were deliberately limited to a +2 modifier, because any more has a massive effect on the probability of an operation's outcome.

The second is financial; a truly high-end intelligence agency costs a lot to operate. The old rules, which gave intel units a free bonus and effectively negated hundreds of RPs of spending on operational bonuses. In effect, it became a case of the CIA costing less to run then, say, Wikileaks. By getting rid of the faction freebie bonuses, things work the way they should: MIIO and ISF can still be extremely powerful agencies, but they have to pay for that superior performance by buying the +2 and +3 modifiers on their rolls. The Watch can make do with their no-mod rolls if they want, or they can choose to pay for the better rolls. Its a financial planning decision, and its a roleplaying decision, but getting rid of the free bonuses at least means that the cost-vs-result equation isn't backwards any more.

Do PFs have any use aside from increasing SF capacity, as far as intelligence ops are concerned(as metafactions won't be conducting much R&D i presume)? I just can't see Clans shunting their PFs off to increase the ICW's SF numbers, but at the same time, the whole point of the ICW is to pool resources...which the new rules definetly hamper. I'm sure the SLDF will face a similar problem, though to a lesser extent with the prevelance of PFs in the IS.

In the revised R&D rules I am working on, PFs have many additional functions that they did not previously have, including interaction with training, strategic token production, exploration, and other "non R&D" functions.

Incidentally, the new limits system actually benefits the ICW. Under the old rules, the SLDF could have up to 10 teams and the ICW count never have any. Most Clans were limited to 3 teams each, when even the TC was allowed 5. The old SF team limits were completely arbitrary and didn't have any means to be overcome.

Basically, just like the skill thing, the "consistent" team limits are designed to make the game fair for all factions.

Maybe there should be a "Joint Operations" rule or something where factions can pool their resources to carry out a specific mission at a bonus.

Something along the lines of giving certain mission-types a bonus if you have more than one source feeding them (Like a pip on the die for intel gathering-each contributing faction's SF units gain a pip on the die-roll, but only if they share the results between them.)

A real-world example would be CIA cooperating with MI6 (or MI5), the Mossad, and the DGSE to locate a specific terrorist-each has their own sources, and each has to contribute from those sources or it doesn't work-but if they all work together properly, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

The natural downside (which can be codified into the mechanic) is that by cooperating closely on a mission, every faction that participates takes a penalty to resisting intel checks by the others.  Not that big a problem for the Clans, unless one is hiding something from the others, but it could be a real problem for IS states since at any time, an ally can turn enemy at the drop of a hat.

I like this idea. I will try to incorporate something like this in as long as I can keep it fairly simple. Probably something like...

Multifaction operations: Two or more factions can cooperate to carry out a single operation, each faction pays X% of the operation's cost, and the roll receives Y bonus (probably +1). Factions undertaking multinational operations also receive a +1 on operations conducted against their ally in the same turn they conduct a joint operations.

Just one idea of how to codify the rule. I'll mull this more.

Overall, I like it, save for one thing. I think the Intel Ratings are needed. Basically, in the revision, the Steel Viper Clan Watch is going to be the qualitative equivalent of the ISF, MIIO, and LIC? I don't feel that is right, and I would not think those factions would be wrong in not caring for it themselves.

Just to reiterate what I kind of buried in a mountain of text above, CSVW would only be qualitiatively equivalent to the ISF if the ISF was operating on the same shoe-string budget as CSVW and getting the same level of relatively poor support (i.e. both were running all their ops at +0). The DC is a big faction, and can afford to run +2 and +3 ops much more than CSV... plus the DC probably has more SF teams in service, greatly increasing their flexibility. So... the ISF still has an advantage, it just isn't a freebie now.

I would suggest that Legendary be a higher skill mod than Heroic; Heroes may live forever, but Legends never die.

I also want to echo the need for national intel ratings; at the very least, there should be some sort of level system for offensive and defensive ops.  An example: the Clans are a very open society with little need for secrecy, so they have a Defensive Rating of 1; the Rim is an open and democratic nation with Freedom of the Press, so they have a Defensive Rating of 2; the Draconis Combine is protected by a pervasive and all-knowing security force and have a Defensive Rating of 3.

Having set ratings determined by how open the society (for defense) and for how good your intel agencies are (for offense) cuts back on intel rating improvements.  Sure, you can make your Offensive Rating better, but no amount of money spent is going to make Google any less effective on Atreus or New Avalon.

The "super skill" ranks were from Flashpoint where Heroic was a rank that only VIP characters could reach (i.e. only the "hero" could have). However, I like your idea, and I may flip those in FGC.

You raised a good point about counterintelligence and domestic surveillance. What are your thoughts on a (fairly expensive) op to defend against enemy intelligence gathering, functioning similar to the Protect Hex Element mission?

I would suggest that Legendary be a higher skill mod than Heroic; Heroes may live forever, but Legends never die.

I also want to echo the need for national intel ratings; at the very least, there should be some sort of level system for offensive and defensive ops.  An example: the Clans are a very open society with little need for secrecy, so they have a Defensive Rating of 1; the Rim is an open and democratic nation with Freedom of the Press, so they have a Defensive Rating of 2; the Draconis Combine is protected by a pervasive and all-knowing security force and have a Defensive Rating of 3.

Having set ratings determined by how open the society (for defense) and for how good your intel agencies are (for offense) cuts back on intel rating improvements.  Sure, you can make your Offensive Rating better, but no amount of money spent is going to make Google any less effective on Atreus or New Avalon.

thing is, Intel ops are by definition different from mere combat.  Consider the effectiveness of Scotland Yard vs. the FBI, for instance.  Similar societies with fairly open internal borders and free press, but the British agency is much more effective at detecting certain types of threats than the Americans are, or you could examine the difference between the Israeli agencies and the Americans, or the French vs. the Americans.

Focus Matters.  An agency that is balls-to-the-wall good at catching foreign infiltrators may be nearly incapable of defending a visiting VIP effectively, while an agency that is good at detecting native dissidents may have a blind-spot where foreign infiltration is concerned.

For simplification, a 'base number' default is probably necessary based on something similar to the intelligence ratings system-but there may be a need for some kind of 'Specialization' score to underscore where a given faction's strengths lie beyond the "Gather/counter" intelligence range.

I like the idea of "intelligence specialization," but it seems the most obvious way to introduce this would be through something like the VIP rules that were being worked on for Flashpoint (and never quite got perfected enough to post). Maybe this is something to add in the future once we ensure the 'core' intel rules are balanced and are functioning properly.

Well, specal ops skill is going to be taken care of a bit by the team ratings, though I wouldn't mind seeing the starting points for less established groups teams as Veteran (the new Watch has only been up and running for a few months, so its hard to imagine that they could put on an elite team on their first try, even if they have combat-elite troops to draw from; its just a difrent skill set to learn.  A micro nation like Randis or Mica might have similar, if not greater, troubles here, or a nation with no infrastructure, such as a Lyran fragment, or a fragment of some other nation that might come to be later on).

As for gathering and countering intel, states that are clever have ways of managing things like free or closed societies (both the USA and USSR had their share of success and falues spying on one another, yet each had a difrent society by and large).  If the ISF is good, they will make the most of their state run news and other forms of controll to keep tight.  But, if VINH is good, then they'll take advantage of the free media to spread disinformation, to obscure the good information in clouds of garbage, and keep the best stuff tightly locked away (conversly, if they're not good, it will all get out some how or another).  So I don't think societal models should really be looked at too closely.  Especaly because its not something that really has a game mechanic (though I'd love to see someone RP out such a change, as we've seen bits of over the years here and there).  Let's just focus on skill of the agency in which ever areas we want to track.

The six turn build actually assumes:

Turn 1: Constructed as Regular unit, spends turn in "exercises"
Turn 2: Trains to Veteran
Turns 3-5: Three turns in "exercises"
Turn 6: Trains to Elite

So theoretically a team could be built at a lower skill level. If this is something that is wanted, I'm not opposed in theory to adding it to the options. I suppose it lets people crank out teams fast if they really need to. I kind of assumed that no one would want a team that would be taking a penalty on every op, but then again you know what they say about assumptions...

The problem becomes one of player tracking, also, I think.  Generally, a Special Forces soldier doesn't have the same skillsets that a civilian Operator would have-in spite of James Bond and Michael Weston, the main activities of a spy revolve around skills like schmoozing, talking, smiling, and reading people.  The soviets had a spy ring inside the U.S. Navy for over twenty years-you may have heard of the case, the Walkers?

Most of what they did involved no violence or violent skills at all-'twas mostly a matter of looking not-guilty and talking one's way to access, with money involved.

Money,
Ideology,
Conscience,
Ego.

MICE was the acronym, it's the four ways you turn someone into a source.  Nowhere in there is gunplay involved.  Intel agencies using HUMINT focus on finding weaknesses-they don't send in commando if they can get it by bribing the janitor, or blackmailing the post-man, and that's really where designing rules becomes tricky-because looking over the mission types, I see one thing standing out: it's James Bond type operations, which only really exist in movies, and are best suited for action-adventure vs. spy thrillers.

Another example from history was Kim Philby-while the Walkers were money-driven, Philby was flipped by Ideology, he honestly believed Communism was the wave of the future.  He was recruited at Eaton long before he ever entered British Intelligence, and did untold amounts of damage once there, while being a highly competent spy for the British whom he was also spying ON.

I really don't know if there is a way to make a short game mechanic that could handle even semi-realistic intelligence ops between nations of that depth.

I actually concur that it is nearly impossible to make a "simple", non-abstract intelligence rule that is realistic. The rules can either be concrete and very complex, or abstract and simple. Since we give people a lot of leeway in writing their RP and since intel is only one facet of a larger game, my preference runs towards abstraction and playability over complexity. Honestly, I kind of think the intel rules are too long even in the draft version, but I understand that the length of that part of the rules is a neccessary evil to ensure game balance.

Cant say I am convinced by the HPG rules. And all next turn already? Will get more problems.

Intel rules are ok so far.

HPG rules will probably not be fully implemented for next turn, though some elements of them (like allowing factions to re-arrange their ICs perhaps) may start to filter in.

If you have specific concerns on the HPG rules or see weaknesses/loopholes/etc in them please post them or PM me and Josh. We don't want to replace one broken rule with another after all.