Rules Updates for Turn 52

[Cannonshop]

So, how many times have we seen a planet with a strong garrison conquered by a huge stack of aerospace units plus a some token ground unit to hold the real estate afterwards? I know I've seen it more times than I'd like.

I am tempted to port in the Flashpoint aerospace support order more or less unchanged. If you didn't play in Flashpoint, here's how it worked:

Aerospace Support
Category: Support

Prerequisite: Friendly unit in the same or adjacent theater using attack, defense, or movement
orders

Size Limit: 1 Top-level unit (ASF or Conventional Fighters only)

This order places air units on standby to assist other forces in the same or an adjacent theater.
For example, a fighter wing in the Atmo/Orbit Theater could be assigned to support an attack
occurring on the Planetary Surface.

The exact amount of support available is determined by a roll on the Curved Percentage table –
compare the percentage to the number of enemy FP engaged in the operation to determine
how many FP of friendly ASF may participate.

Example: a 50 FP ASF wing in the Atmo/Orbital Theater is assigned to support a 50 FP Patrol
Division on Interception orders in the Interplanetary Space Theater. A 40 FP enemy Transport
Division is being intercepted as it attempts to execute a Landing order. The result of the roll on
the Curved Percentage table is 20%. 8 FP of ASF support may join the Patrol Division in attacking
the enemy landing forces.

In FGC, it would look like this:


Ground Support
Type: Special Scenario (used in conjuntion with a Raid or Battle order occuring in the same hex)
Requirements: Aerospace Fighter, Conventional Fighter, or DropShip FP

Effect: roll on the Interdiction/Guerilla Warfare table. You may add air FP equal to the percentage of enemy FP roll to the battle.

For example: Joel is invading with a 10 FP 'Mech regiment. He has a Leviathan II worth 85.5 FP in orbit (60 FP of that FP is fighters and dropships). The defending force is a Galaxy of Elite Clan 'Mechs worth a total of 125 FP. If Joel rolls a 7, he is entitled to 15% of the enemy force -- 18.75 FP -- in fighter support. If he rolled a 11, he would be entitled to 60% -- 75 FP -- but could only use 60 FP because the WarShip portion of his Leviathan II's FP is not eligible to be used.



Thoughts?

Dunno, some of us built our ground units with integral air-cover listed on the 'Ground' tab.

at least, I know "I" did, and some of the other sheets I've seen are similar (TC before the rebuild, CC before the rebuild...)

Generally, for instance, running an invasion scenario, my tendency against a target I "know" is going to be defended, is to have both Naval to deal with the other guy's naval, and a separate aero to provide air-cover to my ground forces.  (fact is, I won't send ground units in without it.)  Generally, though, I don't dhoomstax the aero-the Naval's there to either block enemy naval/aerospace from interfering, or to cover the ignominous retreat in the event of stacked 12's and other undesired events.

That all said, I'd have to agree that GS aircraft shouldn't be more than 25% of an invading force's total ground-moving capability (raiding is different), I'm just not sure that this will do what you intend, without gimping players that don't Dhoomstax.

[Dave Baughman]

Out of curiousity, how do you think this will have a more negative effect on players who don't doomstack then those who do?

I should point out, the percentage of aero available is based on enemy FP, not available aero FP. Under these rules, if you have a couple of FP of integral aero you'll usually be able to use it, whereas if you have 315973509871307501837581037513 FP you'll only be able to use a small amount of it.

[Cannonshop]

Out of curiousity, how do you think this will have a more negative effect on players who don't doomstack then those who do?

I should point out, the percentage of aero available is based on enemy FP, not available aero FP. Under these rules, if you have a couple of FP of integral aero you'll usually be able to use it, whereas if you have 315973509871307501837581037513 FP you'll only be able to use a small amount of it.

That's...a good question.  At first, for some reason (probably my distracted nature or the hour in which I was reading it) it looked almost as if...well, nevermind.
Memory Holes.  (whatinhell was I thinking? I dunno.)

[Daemonknight]

Cannons has been playing too much MegaAero; he suffered a memory leak

[Cannonshop]

Six dropships...that puts quite a pinch on something else.  I don't know about anyone else's sheet on this, but when I was building (and then updating) the UIW, I was pushed to consolidate the assault ships with bigger-than-fighter-scale weapons to the ends of the table.  Presuming some of the other changes proposed go through, and minor states end up short on collar-spaces on their fleets (due to, among other things, having few to no 'big ships with lotsa collars'),  up to now, the alternative was "use an Indy wing' if you wanted those items to actually be useable in a scenario. (Kowloon was a special case-there were lots of stuff floating around out there at the time, this ain't likely in future conflicts unless it's seen over someone's major worlds...)

mind that I'm just idling along, and I like the direction of this in spite of not getting anything out of it.

But...

it would almost be nice to see some way to cap the dropships by type.  Patrol droppers are the big offenders here, just as they were with the Vengeance Proliferation Problem.  (In my world, Patrol=Carrier) whereas, once out of the abstract and into MegaAero, assault droppers that aren't armed with cap or subcaps aren't much of a threat to even ONE warship, (even a really really cheap one) much less the sort of integrated group/fleet arrangement we saw at Kowloon in turn 4.  I'm considering that under this arrangement, minus everyone churning out mass numbers of Monoliths, very few players will get to use anything on the ends of their DA table...like...ever.

Even in major actions.

Probably not a problem for WoB/Terries (whom can likely fill EVERY DA slot with a pocket warship or better), but it might be a problem for MoC, MH, TC, or any faction smaller than the LyrFalcons, Dominion, or FWL (all three of which field large fleets with few to no budget issues and a good selection of advanced designs).

just some idle thoughts.

[Daemonknight]

I would say that's a quirk of running a small faction. You can't expect to measure up to a Great House or Clan, even in terms of what forces you are capable of fielding.

[Dave Baughman]

The solution to that may be to rearrange the DA table. If you accidentally shot yourself in the foot by putting your pocket warships and other "core" assault dropships on the outside of the table, this is something we can look into fixing on a case-by-case basis.

[chaosxtreme]

Thing is FWL Pocket warship's are made of fail.

If I didn't have access to pre-jump Overlord A-3.

I would have the Mule Qship and the Merlin N-Gake.

comparing either of those to a Interdictor, Aesir/Vanir, Isegrim, Agincourt or the couple of other really sweet PW's is crazy talk.

N-Gake gains some range in the nose the rest of its armament much like the Merlin is knife fight range or nothing.

Nor do any of my designs have much in the way of armor so one hit from most warship class weapon's crack's them like an egg shell.

[Cannonshop]

some of it DOES come down to trying to be 'fair' in structuring out tables-that is, instead of twinking out with min/maxed designs laid out in the most advantageous way possible, some tables were structured NOT to take advantage of gray-areas and loopholes.

This becomes a problem mainly when others do that very thing, often requiring the GM and Rules designers to step in and impose policy to rebalance the situation, which we saw with the proliferation of Vengeance-class carriers hauling oodles of EST-O Eisensturms that created the need for the Rules Designers to sequester large and medium carrier dropships out of the 6/7/8 range-the GM staff had to step in and IMPOSE sensible limits, because some players would not limit themselves via things like common sense or game-balance concerns.

The same problem now exists in the single-line-item dhoomstax of Transported-it's cheap, so it gets loaded in to the point where it becomes "Bring three digits or don't come", necessitating THIS rules change.

But...there are consequences.  The more often rules have to be designed and implemented to deal with emergent issues, the less flexibility EVERYONE enjoys in structuring their force-whether you're talking about small factions, or large ones, or large-composite-how-in-hell-did-that-happen factions made of smaller (relatively) groups that share no common morality, common enemies, common interests, common politics, or common background...yet they somehow merge, as if by magyck (though, to be fair, they do share a common player.)

The choices of players is what it is-and some rules are needed to keep the map viable as a playspace.  This is, over-all, a good change to the rules to KEEP that viability without punishing people for developing their factions.

But, to keep the game competitive, it's probably going to need some changes to the tables-and not the mechanics OF the tables, so much as their arrangement, otherwise it IS just handing out new, extra advantages to the mega and meta factions.

SMALL nations are more likely to invest heavily in combat dropships if they have shipbuilding, simply because BIG factions can churn out jump-warships at a much smaller proportional investment, in great numbers, where the logistical challenge isn't defense, but supporting an offensive-means that they don't need 'torpedo boats' as much as 'battleships', whereas the smaller factions are more likely to NEED torpedo-boat type designs in greater proportional numbers.  The Marians can't shit out a Mjolnir-fully-equipped in one turn, every turn, with slack enough to build a couple corvettes on the side, their needs would dictate something more in line with lots of A3 Overlords, Mule Q-ships, various medium/small PWS, and the like-because that's what their economy can afford.

Need drives logistics.  A PWS is a poor-man's warship, for a large mega/meta faction, it's very nearly a waste of money-it has standard scale armor, meaning that even a very weak proper warship can sink it (with ease, at range), it has few guns (even the SubCap models) with low damage (relative, agian, to a Warship), it can't move itself from system to system, and to take on even a a very weak proper warship, you need a lot of them (relative).

Going back to the Kowloon battle turn 4, that Blakist fleet would've been EATEN by an equal FP value of Nagas, Barons, Lola 1's and the like(equal to the defending force-aka, the UIW force).  PWS gives you a SHOT at something like a Baron or Lola, but it's only a shot, and that shot is a minority outcome on the curve.  For the FP value at the start of that scenario, the number of smaller actual WARSHIPS would have been a mismatch using Chanman's rules of fleet development-i.e. when Chanman was proxying for the TH many turns ago, he'd stock up on Barons, and zerg with them, because while the FP value is really low, the ships are slow, their firepower compared to other actual WARSHIPS is low...

They have Cap Scale armor, generate an EM field, fire at Cap Scale ranges, and a meta/megafaction of the size of hte TH could shit them out fro the relative price of a Dropship compared to a faction the size of the TC, MoC, UIW, or MH.

[Parmenion]

I'd like to revisit training please.

Looking at Regular rated units, currently a Inner Sphere BA Regiment (say 12 companies) is 1.5FP in strength.  And then we have one of those Kuritan regiment with 4 or 5 mech battalions.  They could be in the ballpark of 15-18FP (or even more).  Or a Clan cluster worth around 22FP. 

Under the current rules, a nation can only train up one regiment/cluster per turn.  Which of the above gives you more bang for their efforts in training.  Obviously the Kuritan mech regiment or Clan cluster.  Which makes it silly for a nation to build small regiments, when it has such an obvious disadvantage.

Personally, I'd like to see the rule changed so that training is tied to the number of PFs a nation has.  Yes this might be problematical in regards some Clans, however something can be worked out in regards them.  It also makes PFs more useful from an in-game perspective.

Ideally, I'd like a PF to be able to train up a specified amount.  Probably 15FP each.  So if a nation had 4x PF, they can train 60FP worth of troops up to the next level per cycle (and so long as they have the RP).

[Dave Baughman]

I'd like to revisit training please.

Looking at Regular rated units, currently a Inner Sphere BA Regiment (say 12 companies) is 1.5FP in strength.  And then we have one of those Kuritan regiment with 4 or 5 mech battalions.  They could be in the ballpark of 15-18FP (or even more).  Or a Clan cluster worth around 22FP. 

Under the current rules, a nation can only train up one regiment/cluster per turn.  Which of the above gives you more bang for their efforts in training.  Obviously the Kuritan mech regiment or Clan cluster.  Which makes it silly for a nation to build small regiments, when it has such an obvious disadvantage.

Personally, I'd like to see the rule changed so that training is tied to the number of PFs a nation has.  Yes this might be problematical in regards some Clans, however something can be worked out in regards them.  It also makes PFs more useful from an in-game perspective.

Ideally, I'd like a PF to be able to train up a specified amount.  Probably 15FP each.  So if a nation had 4x PF, they can train 60FP worth of troops up to the next level per cycle (and so long as they have the RP).

In the near future, probably next turn actually, training is going to be changing into an interum form where it'll stay until the R&D system refresh is completed. The short version:


1) You can only train units that consist of 12 companies/binaries or less. "Grandfathered" doomstack units larger than this size will no longer be eligible for training.
2) You can train one unit each turn with guaranteed success
3) You can train addition units by "using" a PF. These training attempts have a chance of failure, especially when training to anything above Veteran.

[chaosxtreme]

Thing is that hurt's warship's like the Potemkin and Thera.

They can easily have more Dropships/Aero then the 12 companies?

Though Im guessing that will just be treated as a one off right?

12 companies/binaries or 1 warship unit.

[Dave Baughman]

Thing is that hurt's warship's like the Potemkin and Thera.

They can easily have more Dropships/Aero then the 12 companies?

Though Im guessing that will just be treated as a one off right?

12 companies/binaries or 1 warship unit.

The bold text above is correct. The 12 company limit is for non-warship/non-jumpship units.

[Dave Baughman]

FP/RP/MP revaluation

In preparation for implenting equipment tables and to improve compatibility with legacy versions of MS Word, I am looking to get rid of fractional accounting next turn and also redefine the RP:BV scaling level.

Basically, effective Turn 6, 1 FP will equal 1,000 BV 2.0 instead of 15,000. Record Sheet 0.55 will fully support this and the naval, economic, etc tabs will auto-correct. The only change you will need to make here is to multiply all your ground unit FPs by 15. The rules will similarly be updated.

Additionally, fractional accounting will be going away. This will let me remove all the MROUND calls from the record sheet (improving compatibility with Excel 2003 and simplifying the formulas considerably). All number fields on the record sheet will be reformatted to have zero decimals.

[Dave Baughman]

Skill Modifier Correction to match Total Warfare rules

The 0.55 record sheet will automatically correct all units' quality modifiers to FP to reflect the modifiers in the Total Warfare rules. No manual edits should be required. Some units will gain FP as a result of this rules change. This does not need to be paid for.


The end of "racial" skill modifiers

When everyone updates to 0.55, Clan-trained 'Mech units all get a one-level skill boost. Clan-trained armor units get a one-level skill drop. The net change in FP will need to be compensated for. Net increase an be 'paid for' by reducing the FP of doomstack units, net loss will be able to be recaptured as resource points.